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A HUGE and REAL Problem

David Parker said:
It really does seem we're headed for a very nasty period of drought. Part of the solution might be a genius desalination gizmo, or more reservoirs ... i.e. finding ways to use more resources. But as big a part (and I think Paul Boote's early remarks in this thread were on exactly this point) must just involve using less, wanting less, expecting less all round. Water, of all the things we have in our daily lives, is perhaps the most taken for granted thing of all.

In other parts of this thread there is some admirable stick-it-to-the-man type sentiment. Let's tell those who own the corporations and the governments what we really think etc. The problem is, there is no consistent line as to what 'we' think.

Some of us would be arguing, effectively, for a return to rationing of resources. (Live as though there was a war on, instead of treating the world as if it were a bottomless pit of goodies to be exploited). Some would be arguing for caps on immigration. (We'd have plenty to go round, as long as nobody else was allowed in). Others still might argue for the profiteers to take a hit in their pockets, rather than using the old capitalist adage of 'having to pass the cost onto the consumer', because what sort of system is capitalism if you remove the profit motive? (a better one, in my view, but I just get called a communist when I say that)

I suppose the point I am not making very clearly at all, is that I agree with Paul that the problem is huge and real. But I do not think the population of this country is in even close to being able to collaborate to fix the problem. We have such diverse interests and are so deeply motivated by our own needs, I find myself losing a good deal of optimism.

We all know something needs to be done. But when I talk to people about these sorts of issue, it always seems to come back to a deep rooted 'I-want-my-cake-and-eat-it' philosophy. Let someone else have to take the hit. I don't want my life affected etc.

Sadly, I have no answers to offer. But I do hope people really do continue to question our current money and profit focused systems of organising society. They do work, partly. But from all i can see, for a limited time only. Then you get into deep trouble. You can't grow an economy forever. There are no limitless resources. We may have more people than ever before, but they also want more than ever before. And not only are we consuming more than ever before, we want all these things instantly. Nothing can be deferred. And that is what is making this problem huge and real. For the smartest animals on the planet, we do act very very dumb at times.

I think I've finally turned into my father at the age of 42. But now I see he really did have a point when he said these things back in the 1980s, foreseeing a lot of the wreckage that would follow the Thatcher "revolution".

I'm off to turn all my lights off and put a brick in the cistern....
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Great post. My view would be that, like for many problems, the answer is probably 'asymmetric'.

It baffles me how the British are willing to accept the status quo no matter how bad things are. Don't complain, don't get angry about things that are out of your control. I'm just as guilty, because no one will back me up.....

We have to ration resources and we have to talk about the control of immigration, in my view. I don't think it is racist to accept that an increasing demand on a finite resource requires measures to control the demand that are common sense and not unreasonable. I definitely agree (if I understand your argument correctly) that the supply of essential human services, like the supply of water, should not be left to the market. If we, as a people, can agree that water should be available to everyone at cost then that is what we should have. The idea that a water-rich country like Britain should export water and profits whilst parts of our country dry up makes me literally fume. And don't give me that "private companies do it better and cheaper" argument, because service always deteriorates and cost always goes up. Share-holders get richer, normal people get poorer.

You say that you don't know the answer David, but it was explicit in your description of the problem, in my view. How about we re-nationalise the utilities, including the trains (because.... well isn't it obvious?), build some f-off big de-salinisation plants in the Thames estuary - wind-power on the mud-flats, tidal power and some of that famous Kent sunshine to power them. How do we re-nationalise? This is what we do: we say "we're renationalising the supply of water to our people, so thanks very much for your help. Bye." We might have to give them some money, but we will decide how much - and it will be fair (because we British are fair) and it won't be open to negotiation.

I don't see the market as the answer to all our problems. The vast majority of normal people just don't appreciate that there are quite a few self-centred, greedy buggers, who are quite content to shaft everyone to build up their pension fund. Go ahead and call me a communist, but many will be defending an unbridled free-market approach until we are once-again walking around in bare feet. The major share-holders of the water companies will be sunning themselves in Barbados with a margarita and the few remaining fish will be in zoo aquariums.
 
Mike Webb said:
Great post. My view would be that, like for many problems, the answer is probably 'asymmetric'.

It baffles me how the British are willing to accept the status quo no matter how bad things are. Don't complain, don't get angry about things that are out of your control. I'm just as guilty, because no one will back me up.....

We have to ration resources and we have to talk about the control of immigration, in my view. I don't think it is racist to accept that an increasing demand on a finite resource requires measures to control the demand that are common sense and not unreasonable. I definitely agree (if I understand your argument correctly) that the supply of essential human services, like the supply of water, should not be left to the market. If we, as a people, can agree that water should be available to everyone at cost then that is what we should have. The idea that a water-rich country like Britain should export water and profits whilst parts of our country dry up makes me literally fume. And don't give me that "private companies do it better and cheaper" argument, because service always deteriorates and cost always goes up. Share-holders get richer, normal people get poorer.

You say that you don't know the answer David, but it was explicit in your description of the problem, in my view. How about we re-nationalise the utilities, including the trains (because.... well isn't it obvious?), build some f-off big de-salinisation plants in the Thames estuary - wind-power on the mud-flats, tidal power and some of that famous Kent sunshine to power them. How do we re-nationalise? This is what we do: we say "we're renationalising the supply of water to our people, so thanks very much for your help. Bye." We might have to give them some money, but we will decide how much - and it will be fair (because we British are fair) and it won't be open to negotiation.

I don't see the market as the answer to all our problems. The vast majority of normal people just don't appreciate that there are quite a few self-centred, greedy buggers, who are quite content to shaft everyone to build up their pension fund. Go ahead and call me a communist, but many will be defending an unbridled free-market approach until we are once-again walking around in bare feet. The major share-holders of the water companies will be sunning themselves in Barbados with a margarita and the few remaining fish will be in zoo aquariums.
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Pretty well agree with that. Repay the shareholders the initial price of the shares and allow them to keep any dividends that they have received. If the UK took in all of the people from Africa and Asia, then there would be plenty of resources in those countries and the indiginous UK population could do a swop and emmigrate. Then, wait until the UK is wrecked, the immigrant population of the UK would then want to return to their homelands, we then return and reclaim our country. Just have to flexible in what species that we fish for.
 
Jim Foxall said:
Pretty well agree with that. Repay the shareholders the initial price of the shares and allow them to keep any dividends that they have received. If the UK took in all of the people from Africa and Asia, then there would be plenty of resources in those countries and the indiginous UK population could do a swop and emmigrate. Then, wait until the UK is wrecked, the immigrant population of the UK would then want to return to their homelands, we then return and reclaim our country. Just have to flexible in what species that we fish for.
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Haha. Thanks Jim. :D
 
Not looking good is it?! A few months on from the original post and it seems to be getting worse for you chaps in the south east - most of us in the north west had the day off yesterday - snowed in - happy days. :D

The north for independence i say! You can have our water - but it will cost you big!!!!!!!!! :D

PS - if we do send you some, try not to let it leak away eh chaps.
 
Thanks for posting that Paul. I know (or knew) the Lambourn. Had no idea that it was so bad there since I was so fixed on the Kennet. I guess it makes sense that it would be victim and hit worse too. My view is overdrained aquifiers... shortsighted allowance of it and commercial short term gain. Sure the weather but not only the weather. Don't be fooled the hills are being dried out by Thames Water. There's money in them there hills.
 
Mike Webb said:
...many will be defending an unbridled free-market approach until we are once-again walking around in bare feet. The major share-holders of the water companies will be sunning themselves in Barbados with a margarita and the few remaining fish will be in zoo aquariums.
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So true Mike, so true.

I would be in favour of nationalisation. Always have been. I'm no misty-eyed romantic when it comes to nationalised industries though - i accept there will be inefficiences, the accusation usually leveled at anything run on a public rather than private basis. But having seen what profiteering offers, I would rather live with the imperfections and inadequacies of a publicly run service than be at the mercy of the self-motivated wealthy owners who are interested in only squeezing out more and more money, with barely a thought for decent quality service or the needs of users.

The same 'inefficiency' arguments are being used to effectively destroy the NHS at the moment, and i think almost everyone can see where that particular handcart is headed.

The problem, findamentally, with free-market approaches to essential goods is that instead of treating humans (and indeed other animals) as connected and requiring shared access to such essentials, we are instead customers, buying a share of something that because it has been priced up in a market model becomes yours at someone or something else's expense. This can't be right can it?

I happened to be in Cornwall this week and had a wander round the Eden Project. Glancing away from the impressive trees and bushes I noticed someone had painted the following words on a smooth stone next to the path I was on:

“Man did not weave the web of life – he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.â€
Chief Seattle, 1854.

Not the first time such a sentiment has been summed up in an epithet and it won't be the last, but it is what this particular 'water' problem is all about for me.
 
It was a step in the wrong direction when we de-nationalised Water Gas and Electricity and BT.
All the major utilities should be Government controlled, and not run by some French profit only outfits.
 
Neil Smart said:
It was a step in the wrong direction when we de-nationalised Water Gas and Electricity and BT.
All the major utilities should be Government controlled, and not run by some French profit only outfits.
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BT and internet, no, i think that market works.
yes to the others but only if a no strike deal could be put in place, i have no appetite to go back to 78/79/72/4.
 
Sad and shocking Garry - Mr Gayfer is to be commended for trying his best to help those distressed fish. Hope they will thrive in the river he released them into. We have more of this to come this summer, I fear. Hope I'm wrong though...
 
May be some good news on the way :rolleyes:
Was watching Country file on tv tonight and assuming they have there weather forcast for the week right :(
Loads of rain on the way right across the country :)
 
David Parker said:
Sad and shocking Garry - Mr Gayfer is to be commended for trying his best to help those distressed fish. Hope they will thrive in the river he released them into. We have more of this to come this summer, I fear. Hope I'm wrong though...
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Very true David, the fella is to be commended for his actions indeed. Sadly, the fact is that an emergency fish movement order had not been granted at that point, and I suspect that had this incident not managed to gather some press coverage, the EA would not only have taken no part in the rescue, they may even have taken actions against Mr. Gayfer for transferring fish without it.

Cheers, Dave.
 
The EA - Ark Angels

Joe Fletcher said:
May be some good news on the way :rolleyes:
Was watching Country file on tv tonight and assuming they have there weather forcast for the week right :(
Loads of rain on the way right across the country :)
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Don't worry Joe...The EA with their great knowledge and wisdom in times of drought will do their very best to run it off to the sea as quickly as possible to avoid any flooding!:)
 
Ray Walton said:
Don't worry Joe...The EA with their great knowledge and wisdom in times of drought will do their very best to run it off to the sea as quickly as possible to avoid any flooding!:)
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How right you are Ray. Mind you, with the number of houses that have been built on drained natural flood plains now by unscrupulous, profit motivated moronic builders and local authorities, flooding is a real and increasing problem for huge numbers of people.

The only hope we have of stopping this particular madness is the fact that insurance companies are starting to refuse to cover houses built on flood plains and other vulnerable areas. What will become of the poor souls who unwittingly bought these houses I dread to think, but at least it may put a stop to more such being built. Sadly, knowing the modern mind set, they will throw money and technology at solving the problem, rather than acknowledge that it was just out and out wrong to build there in the first place.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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