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Fish killer - a surprising culprit, you say?

David Gauntlett said:
But then you see, I count barbel as being every bit as much a part of the 'British wildlife Scene' as otters.

They are an indigenous species in exactly the same way as otters....neither one is more deserving of our recognition than the other.*

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on, and the good news is there are plenty of both barbel and otters gracing what is left of the lovely British countryside.
 
Interesting point Neil . There are otters on all the barbel containing rivers in my neck of the woods , and I too have never seen a barbel carcass but I have no doubt that Otters eat barbel because Otters eat fish . The one thing that has always puzzled me is do Otters target barbel in preference to other species ? They are a big fish in comparison to roach or dace , but aren't particularly slow as compared to say a bream . Do they prefer the taste of barbel ? We are told that the otters favourite food is eels , now I would think that an eel must be a comparatively hard fish to catch , wriggly and lithe fish that they are , perhaps they are the tasiest / most nutritous ? I accept that eels are in the decline and this may explain why they pursue other fish but the general observation is still valid . I am an all round angler and the only fish I have caught that have otter damage are chub and barbel . This would suggest to me that they prefer these two species .
On my local Yorkshire Ouse there are more and more Salmon running up the riverat all times of the year , and I see more Otters , certainly in the last 10 years , , not scientific but you could conclude that the Otters don't bother with the Salmon for some reason as the salmon don't appear to be suffering from heavy otter predation ? As Salmon gather below weirs in low water waiting for fresh water so that they can more easily move upstream , you would think that the Otters would gather here for a relatively easy meal . I have seen no evidence of this happening . It's all a mystery...
 
David Gauntlett said:
Well now, Mein Fuhrer Winstanley,

As you well know (you do know, don't you?) the increase in bittern numbers in the UK is solely down to EU directives and funding amounting to millions of pounds being spent on restoration work on wetlands and reedbeds, i.e, the natural habitat of bittern. These birds became extinct in the UK in 1886, due to loss of that habitat, and hunting. They were later reintroduced with stock from Europe. Their numbers since then have had roller coaster variations, and once even came close to ecxtinction again. Happily, in recent years, this massive habit restoration work has indeed brought about a resurgence. However, I have it on good authority (and no, I won't reveal my source, nor care one jot what you make of that) that the spread of otters through East Anglia and other areas has caused many deaths of these birds in recent years. The true extent of that will not be known untill new counts are done.

Other wildlife affected? Take one prime example...the water vole. It is widely accepted (though no doubt you will be the exception, that being your habitual stance) that otters kill water voles. In fact they are second only to mink in that respest, and mink kill more purely because they are small enough to enter water vole burrows. Now, water voles are an endangered species, and much work has been done to save them from extinction, and they enjoy many of the same protections as otters. Unfotunately, as in the case of our declining fish stocks, there are many things that have brought them to the edge....pollution and habitat destruction by 'us lot' being a major factor.

So, sadly for the water vole, it shares many of the same problems as our various species of fish and other riverine critters in many of our waterways...it (they) has been brought to its current parlous state by OUR actions. Now, just as we have done with our fish stocks, at a time when their population numbers in many rivers are teetering on the edge, we are actively interfering once more by subjecting it to one final, additional issue, which could spell its doom. We are hastening the spread of a carnivour that it has absolutely no defence against. Do you not imagine that water voles feel that being killed by an otter may just qualify them to be proof that otters are 'Impacting upon other native species'?

There are many other examples, but it gets tiresome going through the same things over and over again. Sadly Joe, you are one of those that loves to be in denial....though I suspect you have your own agenda going on here. Whatever, anglers such as Chris Turnbull, John Wilson and many, many others that I can assure you are honest men with no reason to lie, have clearly stated that they have witnessed the devastation otters can cause to populations of fish and other wildlife when those creatures are already severly affected/weakened by mans actions. John Wison even had otters destroy the carp and catfish in his private lake. He had to stand by, powerless, and watch them do it. The effect otters have had on his beloved Norfolk and Suffolk rivers is the prime reason why he no longer lives in the UK.

Proof? There have been countless anglers who have watched, often videoed otters killing barbel, pike roach, you name it...for gawds sake, it's what they were borne to do! I would say good luck to them...if there were enough fish to support them. There has also been photgraphs/footage of them attacking and killing swans, herons, ducks, you name it. Do you not see that I am not blaming them for this, that would be utterly ridiculous. I am just trying to point out that now was NOT a good time to hasten their return. We needed to fix our rivers and guarantee them their natural food source before doing that. Or is that just way too sensible?

Of course fish and other wildlife have lived in harmony with otters for millenia, it is the natural and desirable state, it is how nature designed things to be. Sadly, nature didn't reckon on us being quite the selfish, destructive barstewards we are, did it? WE have wrought untold havoc on our world in the uncaring pursuit of profit, and we are not going to stop any time soon.

Unfortunately, we also seem to have a senseless but insatiable longing to interfere with what little is left of our natural world. As a fine example of this, we in the UK now appear to be largely ignoring the plight of the fish in our rivers by ignoring EU directives to improve the water quality in those rivers. We are now allowing chemicals that are utterly impervious to standard water/effluent treatment plants, but which severly harm fish, to be introduced into them via those same hopelessly outdated treatment plants. We are building on flood plains, culverting, straightening, dredging and polluting rivers on a scale that is scary in the extreme. And it gets worse year on year.

If that wasn't bizarre enough, we are at the same time hastening the resurgence of an apex predator that relies on those very same fish that we are destroying....for it's own survival. If you don't find that a very strange state of affairs dear boy, then you need a reality check.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

‘Mein Fuhrer’? Well done. I think you may have set a record time for introducing Reductio ad Hitlerum in a discussion about otters, usually at least several fallacies or half-truths need to be debunked before an otter ranter inevitably conforms to Godwin’s Law.

I asked: ‘is there is single scrap of evidence to suggest that otters are impacting upon any other native species? And by evidence I mean hard scientific data, not half-baked anecdotes passed along the angling grapevine!’

Perhaps I should have explained that by ‘impacting’ I meant responsible for significant population decline, although really I would have thought that was obvious.

And despite the bluster you haven’t actually come with anything have you? No verifiable facts or reverences just a series of straw men arguments and even more anecdotes.

Water Voles - I first started undertaking water vole surveys nearly 19 years ago. I was training to be gamekeeper back in those days. It was apparent then that the species was suffering from a significant population decline and back then the reasons are largely the same as they are today (habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fragmentation and mink predation) and the population declines appears to be roughly following the same downward trajectory.

This paper illustrates just how these factors combine to put the species under significant long-term pressure: Modelling the effects of mink and habitat fragmentation on the water vole - Rushton - 2001 - Journal of Applied Ecology - Wiley Online Library.

There is also some suggestion that climate change, or more to the point extreme weather events may also be a contributory factor but there appears to be little evidence at present to support that.

Yes of course otters predate water voles, but otters are not the reason why water vole populations are in long-term decline. This is the view of water vole experts such as Prof David McDonald, and the late Prof Rob Strachan. As far as I know the only group of people who are laying the blame at the door of the otters are anglers and armchair wildlife experts and you have the nerve to suggest I have an agenda?

I wonder how any hours you have spent surveying water vole populations, trapping mink and encouraging water vole habitat as I have? If I felt for one minute that the targeted culling of otters would make a meaningful difference to the conservation of water voles, then I would be in favour of doing so provided it was legal. I certainly have no qualms about trapping mink and culling foxes on the privately owned wildlife reserve that I oversee the management on. To quote John Maynard Keynes: ‘When the facts change, I change my mind’.

Bitterns – yes the EU life project has been a great success and a clear demonstration that when you get the habitat right then wildlife flourishes. It is nice to see Bitterns flourishing, alongside otters and water voles, at places like Ham Wall.

‘However, I have it on good authority (and no, I won't reveal my source, nor care one jot what you make of that) that the spread of otters through East Anglia and other areas has caused many deaths of these birds in recent years. The true extent of that will not be known until new counts are done.’

It would be a bit odd if otters didn’t predate bitterns wouldn’t it? I’m surprised that this should come as such a shock to you. What do you mean by new counts? 2015 has seen another rise in the UK Bittern population from 140 boomers in 61 sites last year, the count has risen to 150 this year. 80 of those were recorded in East Anglia – up from 62 in 2010. It’s perhaps just as well you haven’t revealed the name of your source so as to save his embarrassment. He clearly hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about…it’s not Robin Page perchance?

And whilst I have the utmost respect for both John Wilson and Chris Turnbull as anglers, but they are not ecological experts and certainly Sir John appears only to view otters and predation solely through the prism of angling. As perhaps one would expect from a professional angler and I can well understand how they must feel at the state of the Wensum now, compared to its heyday.

As I've said don't doubt that otters can impact upon the fishing in small rivers and I also don't doubt that Otters can wreak havoc amongst non-native species such as carp and catfish. Otters certainly don’t seem to have done the carp in my syndicate water many favours and appear to have done for many of the old originals, although things appear have settled down during the last few seasons. It has also been observed that no-signs of tench predation have ever been noted, which is interesting as the numbers of tench exceed that of carp by at least 6 or 7 to 1.

Neil’s comment above: ’The day that I can control the species that I fish for, is the day the light goes out for my fishing’ strikes a chord and pretty much sums up my feelings. Clearly you feel very differently, that’s life.

If you wish to call for otters to be legally culled in order to improve your fishing then fair enough, this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. But please do stop keep peddling these ridiculous falsehoods in order to try and support your position. It’s laughable, it really is.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
And whilst I have the utmost respect for both John Wilson and Chris Turnbull as anglers, but they are not ecological experts and certainly Sir John appears only to view otters and predation solely through the prism of angling. As perhaps one would expect from a professional angler and I can well understand how they must feel at the state of the Wensum now, compared to its heyday.
Click to expand...

Yeah right. And you know better because there only anglers.
 
Derek Funcks said:
Yeah right. And you know better because there only anglers.
Click to expand...

I'm not claiming I 'know better', but I am, with all due respect, claiming that Prof David McDonald has a more profound understanding of the population ecology of water voles than both Messrs Turnbull and Wilson.

I would no more heed advice from Dr Gillian Gilbert on long-trotting for roach than I would from John Wilson on managing reed-beds for bitterns...:rolleyes:
 
‘Mein Fuhrer’? Well done. I think you may have set a record time for introducing Reductio ad Hitlerum in a discussion about otters, usually at least several fallacies or half-truths need to be debunked before an otter ranter inevitably conforms to Godwin’s Law.

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How very odd Joe....it seems to have completely slipped your mind that you started the childishness by referring to me as 'Comrade Gauntlett' in your previous post. But then, you certainly come across as the sort of person who has a large slice of the 'Don't do as I do, do as I say' in your makeup. I bet you have lots of friends.....

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I asked: ‘is there is single scrap of evidence to suggest that otters are impacting upon any other native species? And by evidence I mean hard scientific data, not half-baked anecdotes passed along the angling grapevine!’

Perhaps I should have explained that by ‘impacting’ I meant responsible for significant population decline, although really I would have thought that was obvious.

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Where any particular fish population is severely challenged, sometimes on the very edge in survival terms, probably due to pollution, habitat degradation and never before seen levels of indigenous and non indigenous predators, then ANY added mortalities could reasonably be described as 'significant'....although really I would have thought that was obvious.

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And despite the bluster you haven’t actually come with anything have you? No verifiable facts or reverences just a series of stra,w men arguments and even more anecdotes.

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You keep on about producing 'facts' or 'reverences' (reverences?) and 'Hard scientific data' as you put it? The problem is you see that predators tend to eat the evidence :D. Ok, sorry, just indulging in a bit of sillyness there. The real point is, there CANNOT BE this hard evidence you keep carrying on about, as you well know. Certain rivers, fisheries, whatever....have lost the bulk of their barbel, and in some cases other fish species too. In some instances, the anglers could actually watch it being done. However, you are not prepared to accept the word of respectable folk, so that is a dead end isn't it? So, instead, I will reverse your request. YOU prove to ME that it wasn't otters that caused the very rapid and sudden decline in barbel numbers in places like Adams Mill, towards the end of the Ray Walton, Graham King et al era.

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Water Voles - I first started undertaking water vole surveys nearly 19 years ago. I was training to be gamekeeper back in those days. It was apparent then that the species was suffering from a significant population decline and back then the reasons are largely the same as they are today (habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fragmentation and mink predation) and the population declines appears to be roughly following the same downward trajectory.

This paper illustrates just how these factors combine to put the species under significant long-term pressure: Modelling the effects of mink and habitat fragmentation on the water vole - Rushton - 2001 - Journal of Applied Ecology - Wiley Online Library.

There is also some suggestion that climate change, or more to the point extreme weather events may also be a contributory factor but there appears to be little evidence at present to support that.

Yes of course otters predate water voles, but otters are not the reason why water vole populations are in long-term decline. This is the view of water vole experts such as Prof David McDonald, and the late Prof Rob Strachan. As far as I know the only group of people who are laying the blame at the door of the otters are anglers and armchair wildlife experts and you have the nerve to suggest I have an agenda?

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There you go again Joe, seeing reds under the beds and accusing folk of stuff they just aren't guilty of. I do not know anyone, anglers or not, who would be daft enough to claim that otters are the major reason for the decline in water vole numbers...certainly not I. The point being made is that when any species of animal is in severe decline, adding to it's already unbearable burden by accelerating the return of another predator (one which you yourself admit predates on water voles) is surely folly of the worst kind. It's a bit like a farmer claiming to be mystified by the unexplained loss of some of his chickens...while being total in denial that the fox that he recently moved into their coop with them has anything whatsoever to do with it.

We should be working on ways of reversing the damage that is causing the decline (of voles and fish)...not adding something that is guaranteed to speed their decline up.

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I wonder how any hours you have spent surveying water vole populations, trapping mink and encouraging water vole habitat as I have? If I felt for one minute that the targeted culling of otters would make a meaningful difference to the conservation of water voles, then I would be in favour of doing so provided it was legal. I certainly have no qualms about trapping mink and culling foxes on the privately owned wildlife reserve that I oversee the management on. To quote John Maynard Keynes: ‘When the facts change, I change my mind’.

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Hmmm....so you have 'No qualms' about 'Trapping mink and culling foxes' on the wildlife reserve that you oversee Joe. I wonder what could be the reason for your destruction of these animals? I can see the mink thing, because they are not indigenous, but why do you see foxes as less deserving than otters to receive your protective urges? What is it that mink and foxes do that drives you to kill them? Couldn't be that they over predate other species that you wish to preserve could it? Do I get a strong whiff of hypocrisy drifting in the air here?

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Bitterns – yes the EU life project has been a great success and a clear demonstration that when you get the habitat right then wildlife flourishes. It is nice to see Bitterns flourishing, alongside otters and water voles, at places like Ham Wall.

‘However, I have it on good authority (and no, I won't reveal my source, nor care one jot what you make of that) that the spread of otters through East Anglia and other areas has caused many deaths of these birds in recent years. The true extent of that will not be known until new counts are done.’

It would be a bit odd if otters didn’t predate bitterns wouldn’t it? I’m surprised that this should come as such a shock to you. What do you mean by new counts? 2015 has seen another rise in the UK Bittern population from 140 boomers in 61 sites last year, the count has risen to 150 this year. 80 of those were recorded in East Anglia – up from 62 in 2010. It’s perhaps just as well you haven’t revealed the name of your source so as to save his embarrassment. He clearly hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about…it’s not
Robin Page perchance?

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Whatever makes you think that I am shocked that otters predate bittern Joe? Quite the reverse is true in fact. When the stomach contents of recently deceased otters (usually road kill) are examined, they have discovered the remains of pretty well anything that swims, flies or crawls within several miles of a waterway. They are extremly large, powerful, efficient opportunist killers. They do exactly what nature designed them to do, and as I have stated until I am blue in the face, I do NOT blame them for that...I just wish so very much that their resurgence had not come at a time when so many creatures are in no position to face yet another killer in their midst. The timing of their return, and the ludicrous, totally Draconian levels of protection they enjoy is the problem, not the otter itself. Think about it Joe...how would you get on if mink and foxes enjoyed such protection? Be a bit of a problem for you in your job, wouldn't it? And yet, how different is an otter to the animals you so cheerfully kill? They too are just wild animals, designed by nature to do what they do.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And whilst I have the utmost respect for both John Wilson and Chris Turnbull as anglers, but they are not ecological experts and certainly Sir John appears only to view otters and predation solely through the prism of angling. As perhaps one would expect from a professional angler and I can well understand how they must feel at the state of the Wensum now, compared to its heyday.

As I've said don't doubt that otters can impact upon the fishing in small rivers and I also don't doubt that Otters can wreak havoc amongst non-native species such as carp and catfish. Otters certainly don’t seem to have done the carp in my syndicate water many favours and appear to have done for many of the old originals, although things appear have settled down during the last few seasons. It has also been observed that no-signs of tench predation have ever been noted, which is interesting as the numbers of tench exceed that of carp by at least 6 or 7 to 1.

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Tench have always suffered less predation than other fish Joe. They are not immune to it, but that they seem less prone to it, as was was noted in historical writings. I am glad to see you have respect for John Wilson and Chris Turnbull, but not one little bit surprised that you disbelieve and debunk their statements and views on otter predation. After all, they differ from yours don't they?

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Neil’s comment above: ’The day that I can control the species that I fish for, is the day the light goes out for my fishing’ strikes a chord and pretty much sums up my feelings. Clearly you feel very differently, that’s life.

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I am glad you like Neils statement Joe, because that means at least two people understood it. In what way could anything that anyone has said or done (on either side of this debate) be construed as 'controlling', or attempting to control barbel? It baffles me.

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If you wish to call for otters to be legally culled in order to improve your fishing then fair enough, this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. But please do stop keep peddling these ridiculous falsehoods in order to try and support your position. It’s laughable, it really is.

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Culling otters would have NO affect on my fishing whatsoever Joe. Basically because there ARE no otters affecting my fishing (yet)....which makes your little jibe look a bit silly, doesn't it? Secondly, at 70 years of age, and with increasing health issues, my days of catching anything bar a cold are almost done and dusted. Obviously then, I am not debating this issue for selfish reasons am I...not that I would expect you to understand that notion. Lastly, I think most folk reading these posts will make their own minds up about whether I have ever 'Peddled ridiculous falsehoods', in this debate or any other. I may not always be right, I am more than happy to admit that (Oh sorry, thats another trait of mine you would have problems understanding isn't it?) but I do not deliberately lie or spread theories I know to be false. How strange is that? Takes all sorts though doesn't it Joe? Laughable really isn't it?

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Gauntlett said:
‘Mein Fuhrer’? Well done. I think you may have set a record time for introducing Reductio ad Hitlerum in a discussion about otters, usually at least several fallacies or half-truths need to be debunked before an otter ranter inevitably conforms to Godwin’s Law.

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How very odd Joe....it seems to have completely slipped your mind that you started the childishness by referring to me as 'Comrade Gauntlett' in your previous post. But then, you certainly come across as the sort of person who has a large slice of the 'Don't do as I do, do as I say' in your makeup. I bet you have lots of friends.....

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I asked: ‘is there is single scrap of evidence to suggest that otters are impacting upon any other native species? And by evidence I mean hard scientific data, not half-baked anecdotes passed along the angling grapevine!’

Perhaps I should have explained that by ‘impacting’ I meant responsible for significant population decline, although really I would have thought that was obvious.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where any particular fish population is severely challenged, sometimes on the very edge in survival terms, probably due to pollution, habitat degradation and never before seen levels of indigenous and non indigenous predators, then ANY added mortalities could reasonably be described as 'significant'....although really I would have thought that was obvious.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And despite the bluster you haven’t actually come with anything have you? No verifiable facts or reverences just a series of stra,w men arguments and even more anecdotes.

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You keep on about producing 'facts' or 'reverences' (reverences?) and 'Hard scientific data' as you put it? The problem is you see that predators tend to eat the evidence :D. Ok, sorry, just indulging in a bit of sillyness there. The real point is, there CANNOT BE this hard evidence you keep carrying on about, as you well know. Certain rivers, fisheries, whatever....have lost the bulk of their barbel, and in some cases other fish species too. In some instances, the anglers could actually watch it being done. However, you are not prepared to accept the word of respectable folk, so that is a dead end isn't it? So, instead, I will reverse your request. YOU prove to ME that it wasn't otters that caused the very rapid and sudden decline in barbel numbers in places like Adams Mill, towards the end of the Ray Walton, Graham King et al era.

------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------

Water Voles - I first started undertaking water vole surveys nearly 19 years ago. I was training to be gamekeeper back in those days. It was apparent then that the species was suffering from a significant population decline and back then the reasons are largely the same as they are today (habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fragmentation and mink predation) and the population declines appears to be roughly following the same downward trajectory.

This paper illustrates just how these factors combine to put the species under significant long-term pressure: Modelling the effects of mink and habitat fragmentation on the water vole - Rushton - 2001 - Journal of Applied Ecology - Wiley Online Library.

There is also some suggestion that climate change, or more to the point extreme weather events may also be a contributory factor but there appears to be little evidence at present to support that.

Yes of course otters predate water voles, but otters are not the reason why water vole populations are in long-term decline. This is the view of water vole experts such as Prof David McDonald, and the late Prof Rob Strachan. As far as I know the only group of people who are laying the blame at the door of the otters are anglers and armchair wildlife experts and you have the nerve to suggest I have an agenda?

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There you go again Joe, seeing reds under the beds and accusing folk of stuff they just aren't guilty of. I do not know anyone, anglers or not, who would be daft enough to claim that otters are the major reason for the decline in water vole numbers...certainly not I. The point being made is that when any species of animal is in severe decline, adding to it's already unbearable burden by accelerating the return of another predator (one which you yourself admit predates on water voles) is surely folly of the worst kind. It's a bit like a farmer claiming to be mystified by the unexplained loss of some of his chickens...while being total in denial that the fox that he recently moved into their coop with them has anything whatsoever to do with it.

We should be working on ways of reversing the damage that is causing the decline (of voles and fish)...not adding something that is guaranteed to speed their decline up.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder how any hours you have spent surveying water vole populations, trapping mink and encouraging water vole habitat as I have? If I felt for one minute that the targeted culling of otters would make a meaningful difference to the conservation of water voles, then I would be in favour of doing so provided it was legal. I certainly have no qualms about trapping mink and culling foxes on the privately owned wildlife reserve that I oversee the management on. To quote John Maynard Keynes: ‘When the facts change, I change my mind’.

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Hmmm....so you have 'No qualms' about 'Trapping mink and culling foxes' on the wildlife reserve that you oversee Joe. I wonder what could be the reason for your destruction of these animals? I can see the mink thing, because they are not indigenous, but why do you see foxes as less deserving than otters to receive your protective urges? What is it that mink and foxes do that drives you to kill them? Couldn't be that they over predate other species that you wish to preserve could it? Do I get a strong whiff of hypocrisy drifting in the air here?

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Bitterns – yes the EU life project has been a great success and a clear demonstration that when you get the habitat right then wildlife flourishes. It is nice to see Bitterns flourishing, alongside otters and water voles, at places like Ham Wall.

‘However, I have it on good authority (and no, I won't reveal my source, nor care one jot what you make of that) that the spread of otters through East Anglia and other areas has caused many deaths of these birds in recent years. The true extent of that will not be known until new counts are done.’

It would be a bit odd if otters didn’t predate bitterns wouldn’t it? I’m surprised that this should come as such a shock to you. What do you mean by new counts? 2015 has seen another rise in the UK Bittern population from 140 boomers in 61 sites last year, the count has risen to 150 this year. 80 of those were recorded in East Anglia – up from 62 in 2010. It’s perhaps just as well you haven’t revealed the name of your source so as to save his embarrassment. He clearly hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about…it’s not
Robin Page perchance?

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Whatever makes you think that I am shocked that otters predate bittern Joe? Quite the reverse is true in fact. When the stomach contents of recently deceased otters (usually road kill) are examined, they have discovered the remains of pretty well anything that swims, flies or crawls within several miles of a waterway. They are extremly large, powerful, efficient opportunist killers. They do exactly what nature designed them to do, and as I have stated until I am blue in the face, I do NOT blame them for that...I just wish so very much that their resurgence had not come at a time when so many creatures are in no position to face yet another killer in their midst. The timing of their return, and the ludicrous, totally Draconian levels of protection they enjoy is the problem, not the otter itself. Think about it Joe...how would you get on if mink and foxes enjoyed such protection? Be a bit of a problem for you in your job, wouldn't it? And yet, how different is an otter to the animals you so cheerfully kill? They too are just wild animals, designed by nature to do what they do.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And whilst I have the utmost respect for both John Wilson and Chris Turnbull as anglers, but they are not ecological experts and certainly Sir John appears only to view otters and predation solely through the prism of angling. As perhaps one would expect from a professional angler and I can well understand how they must feel at the state of the Wensum now, compared to its heyday.

As I've said don't doubt that otters can impact upon the fishing in small rivers and I also don't doubt that Otters can wreak havoc amongst non-native species such as carp and catfish. Otters certainly don’t seem to have done the carp in my syndicate water many favours and appear to have done for many of the old originals, although things appear have settled down during the last few seasons. It has also been observed that no-signs of tench predation have ever been noted, which is interesting as the numbers of tench exceed that of carp by at least 6 or 7 to 1.

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Tench have always suffered less predation than other fish Joe. They are not immune to it, but that they seem less prone to it, as was was noted in historical writings. I am glad to see you have respect for John Wilson and Chris Turnbull, but not one little bit surprised that you disbelieve and debunk their statements and views on otter predation. After all, they differ from yours don't they?

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Neil’s comment above: ’The day that I can control the species that I fish for, is the day the light goes out for my fishing’ strikes a chord and pretty much sums up my feelings. Clearly you feel very differently, that’s life.

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I am glad you like Neils statement Joe, because that means at least two people understood it. In what way could anything that anyone has said or done (on either side of this debate) be construed as 'controlling', or attempting to control barbel? It baffles me.

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If you wish to call for otters to be legally culled in order to improve your fishing then fair enough, this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. But please do stop keep peddling these ridiculous falsehoods in order to try and support your position. It’s laughable, it really is.

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Culling otters would have NO affect on my fishing whatsoever Joe. Basically because there ARE no otters affecting my fishing (yet)....which makes your little jibe look a bit silly, doesn't it? Secondly, at 70 years of age, and with increasing health issues, my days of catching anything bar a cold are almost done and dusted. Obviously then, I am not debating this issue for selfish reasons am I...not that I would expect you to understand that notion. Lastly, I think most folk reading these posts will make their own minds up about whether I have ever 'Peddled ridiculous falsehoods', in this debate or any other. I may not always be right, I am more than happy to admit that (Oh sorry, thats another trait of mine you would have problems understanding isn't it?) but I do not deliberately lie or spread theories I know to be false. How strange is that? Takes all sorts though doesn't it Joe? Laughable really isn't it?

Cheers, Dave.
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Mr Gauntlett, you took the words right out of my mouth , ( AGAIN :)) and saved me all that typing, thanks Dave. :):):)

Joe!!! Yeah right. ;):rolleyes:
 
Otters eat fish along with other things.

There are more otters than there have been for a long time.

They tend to eat the rich oil contents first, like fish livers.

There have been a number of Incidents of fish dragged up the bank and the livers eaten.

There have been a number of incidents reported on this site of dead fish and fish with ripped tails.

If anyone else has seen half a dozen barbel come out of the water from 14ft deep chased by a big dog otter on the Severn, they will realise the impact the otter can potentially make on fish stocks.

On the smaller rivers the fish population has suffered. Kennet/Great Ouse/Bristol Avon/Wensum/Teme for example.

The larger rivers it seems have generally managed to see less of an impact.

The Otter population will even out according to food availablility, not withstanding inland raids on kept fish.

We have no real choice but to live with it.

Graham
 
"We have no real choice but to live with it". Graham's right.


And that's all that matters really, you can shout about it as much as you want, result.. nowt!

.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Otters eat fish along with other things.

There are more otters than there have been for a long time.

They tend to eat the rich oil contents first, like fish livers.

There have been a number of Incidents of fish dragged up the bank and the livers eaten.

There have been a number of incidents reported on this site of dead fish and fish with ripped tails.

If anyone else has seen half a dozen barbel come out of the water from 14ft deep chased by a big dog otter on the Severn, they will realise the impact the otter can potentially make on fish stocks.

On the smaller rivers the fish population has suffered. Kennet/Great Ouse/Bristol Avon/Wensum/Teme for example.

The larger rivers it seems have generally managed to see less of an impact.

The Otter population will even out according to food availablility, not withstanding inland raids on kept fish.

We have no real choice but to live with it.

Graham
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This is what I was going to say! I doubt many could reasonably disagree with Graham's post. On the Kennet over the last 2 seasons, I have, as a matter of fact, witnessed a material increase in otter activity. I have seen dead barbel on the bank, I have seen otters emerge from the river with a barbel (it is a distressing sight) and I have caught barbel with clear otter damage. With effort and, importantly, resource, you can do a fair bit to protect your lake or pond. What can you reasonably and lawfully do on a river?

The situation will resolve itself to a degree. With dwindling fish stocks, otters will presumably have to adapt to different, less favourable, food sources (birds/mammals etc- which should concern those organisations focused on the preservation of such creatures) or they will have to move. If they move here is a risk of premature death-conflict with man and/or other otters.

You would imagine that otter lovers, bird lovers and so on would share anglers concerns over the state of our rivers because a healthy river containing lots of lovely fish suits us all.
 
Howard Cooke said:
This is what I was going to say! I doubt many could reasonably disagree with Graham's post. On the Kennet over the last 2 seasons, I have, as a matter of fact, witnessed a material increase in otter activity. I have seen dead barbel on the bank, I have seen otters emerge from the river with a barbel (it is a distressing sight) and I have caught barbel with clear otter damage. With effort and, importantly, resource, you can do a fair bit to protect your lake or pond. What can you reasonably and lawfully do on a river?

The situation will resolve itself to a degree. With dwindling fish stocks, otters will presumably have to adapt to different, less favourable, food sources (birds/mammals etc- which should concern those organisations focused on the preservation of such creatures) or they will have to move. If they move here is a risk of premature death-conflict with man and/or other otters.

You would imagine that otter lovers, bird lovers and so on would share anglers concerns over the state of our rivers because a healthy river containing lots of lovely fish suits us all.
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This last line in my view is the key to this very vexed question , it is a mutual interest for all the parties involved in this debate . Healthy fish stock + healthy water and habitats is what we all want . Well said .
 
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