When did Barbel fishing change?

[Steve Holt]

Hi Richard nice to see you back.

Too right Richard.

 

[Andrew Green]

the trouble may come from the direct transfer of carp tackle and methods to barbel fishing, like the now common use of 25lb braid hooklink materials and bolt rigs, semi fixed or as was posted last year on another forum, and dubbed 'the death rig' fully fixed and then used in conjunction with a 12 lb main line, again the weakest link is the main line but what was worse, the moron that used this lost a fish, now tethered to a 3oz lead, so changed spool to have 15lb main line and kept fishing the error of his ways being pointed out to him only prompted a stream of obscenities and threats. not the sort of thing most would come across but given the few 'pot noodle carpers' out there deciding to have a go for something else and having a bag full of set-up rods and a total lack of knowledge of how to do anything unless it was explained in words of one syllable, with pictures, between the pages of 'carpers comics'

back on the tackle front, the first carp rods i had, and still have one of, was the glass mk4 carp which makes a reasonable barbel rod due to its length and action, my present carp rods are 3 1/4lb 12'ers, although not the fast action 'poker' type, but i could not even consider using them for anything less than large carp waters. compared to my fox floodwater barbel rod, with the same stated test curve, even my last set of fox 2 3/4lb rods are just not a good compromise. whatever tackle that can be transferred across from carping, modern rods are, with a few exceptions, not very suitable

 

[Chris Jones]

Andrew,
I can't say that I disagree with anything you've said but I'm still concerned that there is an assumption that all barbel fishing braid users are using very heavy braid for both hooklink and mainline.
With a match/general coarse background I still struggle with the concept of hooklinks stronger than mainline. I simply can't get my head around it at all.
The only saving grace where carping is concerned is that hooklinks are generally short and lead clips, used properly, do readily dump leads. I don't think this methodology crosses over to barbelling particularly well when hooklinks are generally not as short and people don't wish to dump a feeder every other cast.
When it comes to rods there is no doubt that carp rods have changed massively over the years, as have barbel rods. There is no way I'd use any modern carp rod, even one as low as 2.25lb TC, if you could find a new one these days, when fishing on a river for barbel. I have old 2.5lb Daiwa Powermesh Carp rods that, when compared to modern rods, are soft as hell. Despite having a lower rating than my heaviest barbel rods I'd still not use them for barbelling. They have a totally different action to my Fox Extremes at 2.75lb. In turn, my new 3lb carp rods are like pokers in comparison to either mentioned previously.

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Yes i do Ian, primarily for the fishes safety in mind? If i snag up i will either loose my feeder, break the hooklength or bend the hook and still retrieve my rig. My rig is an extremely safe non tethering rig which even if it did break the fish would be not be tethered.
In the course of a year i fish Low and clear/flood conditions, i may choose to fish leads up to 250 grams, or chuck a 7oz feeder 50 yards, at the extreme limit of the rivers conditions.
This is in the words of Robson Green is 'extreme fishing', but in many Trent anglers minds who fish all conditions, then this is the norm. Yes some on here will think its extreme even some Trent anglers, but through experience and knowledge i know my rig works firstly in the safety of the fish i catch.

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Hello Jon . I still don't understand the thinking behind the need to have 30lb b.s. braid mainline , why does it have to have such a high braking strain , wouldn't 15lb do ? Is it perhaps that the loading up of a lower breaking strain mainline under long distance casting would snap a lower b.s. braid .?I am sure your rig works and your leads break free if snagged , but is it always the lead that snags ? This whole topic has been discussed before , but I think people use high BS braid because it has a long history of unpredictable braking strains therefore people perhap over compensate as a response . I think it is accepted that braid overall has pretty poor abrasion resistance compared to mono so if your main line was snagged you pulled for the break and the mainline snapped it's not so fish friendly in my view

 

[Jon Frisby]

Hi Mike, My thoughts on this are;
The diameter of braid i use is equivalent to 8lb mono. This puts less force on the line so you can use smaller leads, also when weed hits the line you can give the braid a twang which cuts the weed and prevents build up and the rig washing away
It gets some extreme wear and tear, sometimes chucking in every 10mins and multiples of a dozen barbel in a session. 30lb braid gives me that endurance and security.
I tried 15 and 20lb braid, but i felt it couldnt cope with what i was throwing at it, i didnt want to lose a rig either through the fight or during the chuck itself, i dont always fish the middle or far bank as much, but on some of my fav stretches thats where the Barbel are and if they are there then thats where i will fish.
Braid does suffer from abrasion but not so much directly but indirectly, by this i mean, the braid is in strands and when the river is carrying sediment the fine abrasive sediments get into the braid and causes the braid to lose its BS, IMO. Thats why I always test my knots prior during and after fishing to be on the safe side. Just to confirm i do not fish straight through and anybody who fishes this as a mainline without either a leader or length of rig tubing protecting the braid from abrasion on rocks etc is IMO being irresponsible, because any unprotected braid will snap like cotton.

Hope this helps

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Hi Mike, My thoughts on this are;
The diameter of braid i use is equivalent to 8lb mono. This puts less force on the line so you can use smaller leads, also when weed hits the line you can give the braid a twang which cuts the weed and prevents build up and the rig washing away
It gets some extreme wear and tear, sometimes chucking in every 10mins and multiples of a dozen barbel in a session. 30lb braid gives me that endurance and security.
I tried 15 and 20lb braid, but i felt it couldnt cope with what i was throwing at it, i didnt want to lose a rig either through the fight or during the chuck itself, i dont always fish the middle or far bank as much, but on some of my fav stretches thats where the Barbel are and if they are there then thats where i will fish.
Braid does suffer from abrasion but not so much directly but indirectly, by this i mean, the braid is in strands and when the river is carrying sediment the fine abrasive sediments get into the braid and causes the braid to lose its BS, IMO. Thats why I always test my knots prior during and after fishing to be on the safe side. Just to confirm i do not fish straight through and anybody who fishes this as a mainline without either a leader or length of rig tubing protecting the braid from abrasion on rocks etc is IMO being irresponsible, because any unprotected braid will snap like cotton.

Hope this helps

Thanks Jon . The thin diameter of braid and the helpful properties you outline in your first paragraph I can totally see .Re the confidence factor of 30 lb braid , I am less cleasr about this . You aren't saying that the lower b.s . lines let you down but you do say that extra precautions are needed , [ tubing , knot testing etc to make sure that everything is OK / secure ] Surely implicit in this is that braid is not reliable in braking strain and abrasion resistance and therefore perhaps it;s undoubted benefits are outweighed by it's fundamental weaknesses ? As is obvious , I am not a fan of braid , however my biggest objection is that it can and does bite in to fishes flanks during playing , and the fact that itis so thin and fine encourages the irresponsible[ not you ] to use it straight through in stupidly high breaking strains . Imagine fish , snagged , 30 lb b.s. braid straight through , hook in the barbels mouth perhapd looped round an underwater snag . Option , pull for a break , the pressure on the fishes mouth would be enormous and very damaging . As to the Barbel society fella fishing it straight through in such a high breaking strain , well , not wise is the most charitable I could be ..

 

[Chris Jones]

my biggest objection is that it can and does bite in to fishes flanks during playing , and the fact that itis so thin and fine encourages the irresponsible[ not you ] to use it straight through in stupidly high breaking strains.

Mike,
despite the fact that I do use braid as mainline in some situations, I tend to share your concerns. However, the way I use it means that a fish couldn't get near the mainline braid outside of a set of unbelievable circumstances. Fluoro hooklinks with mono leaders or silicone tubing would necessitate a fish being well in excess of five feet long to get near to bare braid.

 

[David Craine]

Braid ..????

I have followed this thread with some interest and dare I say some disbelief at some of the comments, not all I may add.
My take on Braid is that it has no place in Barbel fishing full stop.
I had always had this view, but it was reinforced this year on a visit to the Tidal .
I landed a smallish (about 6lb ) Barbel , that did not put up any kind of a resistance, indeed I was not sure it was a fish at all until I saw what I had become attached to.
The Barbel was wrapped in and trailing a good 10ft plus of Cheeswire Braid that had cut into its flanks and split its Dorsal, the Braid was attached to a hooklength of about 15" of either Mono or Flouro, of about 10lb bs give or take, with a lead release , but no feeder or lead,my feeder had become tangled with the Braid.
I removed the Braid and hooklength.Treated the fishes wounds with antibiotic, and after a lengthy resting period I released it , it remained in the shallows, behind a rock for a couple of hours before it swam off.
I obviously cannot say if the Barbel took the bait attached to the Braid / Mono rig before or after the "angler" became snagged and snapped off, either way in my view the use of Braid for Barbel fishing in any circumstances is a No No.
I have fished the Tidal in most of its moods, and can say that I have never seen the need for anything more than 15lb Mono main line ,at most, with a suitably lower B/S hooklength and some type of rig, so that should a break occur the fish will swim off not trailing yards of line .If you cannot cast a feeder / lead of any type without snapping off with 15lb mono then you perhaps need a bit of tuition, having said that I dont use anything like the sizes of feeder / lead that some Tidal Anglers use.Please do not mention shock leaders, I am fully aware of their use, being a lifetime beach angler as well.
I believe that any club controlling stretches of river should make it a rule that Braid be banned including Braid Hooklengths, I know that many will find this controversial, but well, thats just my view.
I found it interesting, but disturbing that the Braid had snapped yards from the business end of the rig, indeed many feet from where rig tubing would have ended, had it been used.

I hope I have not offended anybody by this post, but that is my view, and I dont think for a minute that I am alone in this.I dont wish to start a long and argumentative end to this thread, as already stated, this is just my personal view, right or wrong I stand by it.

Dave

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Mike,
despite the fact that I do use braid as mainline in some situations, I tend to share your concerns. However, the way I use it means that a fish couldn't get near the mainline braid outside of a set of unbelievable circumstances. Fluoro hooklinks with mono leaders or silicone tubing would necessitate a fish being well in excess of five feet long to get near to bare braid.

Yes , if not used as a hooklink or as a covered hookling then you are right Chris braid damage to fish flanks is unlikely , BUT many do use it as an uncovered hooklink or straight through and I have caught many barbel with hideous flank damage which in my view has been caused by irresponsible use of braid . In barbel fishing the stuffs more trouble than it's worth

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Just having read Davids[ Craines] comments . I think his account of that poor Trent barbel says it all .Braid , more trouble than it's worth both to fish and angler .Not that I think that the barbel are thinking along these lines[sic], but you get my drift ..

 

[Chris Jones]

Yes , if not used as a hooklink or as a covered hookling then you are right Chris braid damage to fish flanks is unlikely , BUT many do use it as an uncovered hooklink or straight through and I have caught many barbel with hideous flank damage which in my view has been caused by irresponsible use of braid . In barbel fishing the stuffs more trouble than it's worth

I'd, naturally, disagree depending on circumstance. However, if I said that I never use braid other than on the Trent it may give you a clue as to where I stand. I don't think it's necessary in all situations, even on the bigger rivers. What I do feel about braid, especially when the talk of bans appear, is that it's wrong to punish everyone for the sins of the few. Education or punishment of those responsible for problems is the answer, not blanket bans.
Misuse of unsafe mono rigs can and has also caused problems, should we be looking to ban mono too? Hammer the idiots not inanimate objects.

I must say though, I've rarely seen flank damage on barbel and never seen any that could be definitively blamed on braid. If I do see it you can bet your bottom dollar that my braid use will be forgone and I'll stick to mono despite its limitations in some circumstances. That's a price I'd be willing to pay. What I'll do if I see mono damaging a fish is anyones guess.

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Choices , choices eh Chris . An interesting , and so far venom free debate though . The damage I have seen on barbel , and occasionally on pike [ I have never carp fished ] ,indicates to me that braid is the culprit , as braid is most often used when fishing for these species . Not seem any braid damaged , roach , dace and gudegeon yet ...

 

[Chris Jones]

braid is the culprit

Surely the idiot using the braid improperly is the culprit, not the braid itself?:confused:When a poor mono rig damages a fish are people blaming mono or the angler responsible? You don't blame a car for running someone over.

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Surely the idiot using the braid improperly is the culprit, not the braid itself?:confused:When a poor mono rig damages a fish are people blaming mono or the angler responsible? You don't blame a car for running someone over.

Yes I guess you are right Chris , it is it's improper use by some anglers that makes things a lot worse , but I think Dave Craines account hints at a wider problem with the stuff . In terms of flank cutting problems I think braid has more potential to do damage than mono .

 

[Andrew Green]

maybe we should look at using rig tube or 'safe' leaders for the last couple of feet when using braid, also like carp fishing. not very practical when your float fishing or rolling meat

 

[Richard Walker]

At the risk of being controversal...

Unless you are using very short hooklengths can someone explain to me how in the normal playing of a fish how any part of it's body would come into contact with a braided mainline :confused:

I recall a similar thread on the old forum which had a link to a very good article written by Dave Chilton of Kryston. Unfortunately the link is now dead but I have copied some of the text that was in the thread :

'There are now braided lines on the market made for use as reel line or mainline. These lines are of an extremely low diameter and should never be used as hooklengths! Some are braided very tight with an extremely high pick count to reduce the diameter and are constructed too tight to flatten. Some are lines made from filaments which have been fused together using modern-day resins. All braided reel lines should be used on the reel and not the hook due to their cheese-cutting abilities. There are many braided reel or casting lines available, Fireline, Fusion, Spiderwire, Suffix, plus many, many more. Once again I would recommend only purpose designed braided lines for use as hooklengths. '

Ignoring the fact he had a vested interest this made total sense to me, and if you do compare purpose made hooklength material with mainline material you can see exactly what he is saying.

Anyone fishing braided mainlines straight through to the hook should have a good look at themselves in my opinion.

regards
Richard

 

[Andrew Green]

your point taken, but the point in question was not whether it is right or wrong to use braid, reel or hook link, but the transference of carp fishing practice by some people where the hook link material is of a higher breaking strength than the main line, braid or mono. take stiff rig materials some of them are 40lb and fished with 12 mainline. extream example but if a carper is using this as the norm and fancies nipping down to his local barbel haunt with a bag of boilies and some halibut groundbait and just clips a 3oz feeder where a lead would normally sit, the fish are not going to say know....if their in the right mood

 

[Andrew Boyne]

At the risk of being controversal...

Unless you are using very short hooklengths can someone explain to me how in the normal playing of a fish how any part of it's body would come into contact with a braided mainline :confused:

I would suggest it could occur if the fish rolled on the line and got it caught around it's fins. If it rolled over a few times in the same direction it would in effect wrap itself in the line. It wouldn't take many rolls for even a modest sized fish to get to the mainline. It's unlikely i know, but could happen.

What worries me the most is when someone cracks off, or pulls for a break and the braid snaps at the rod end leaving long lengths of heavy braid trailing in the swim. I know of a few good swims that have been made unfishable by this until either a flood clears it or someone goes in and gets it out. In two seperate instances on the Ribble i know two anglers who've had the misfortune to hook into very large barbel, only for them to get stuck in some trailing braid unkown to the anglers concerned - bringing the fish to the surface and seeing it stuck like that must be gut wrenching.

Having spent many years on the Trent, and now enjoying the Ribble, i personally see no reason to use anything heavier than 12lb mono. Infact my standard Trent line was 8lb big game and it's only in the last few years i've stepped up to 10lb and then 12lb in the really agressive bedrock gullies often found on the Ribble.

 

[Craig Wood]

Ive seen Barbel damaged just the same with mono..Its not the materials used that are the problem its the anglers that use them..If you get your twice a season angler using 12lb mono or 20 or 30lb braid then im affraid in small instances the out come will be the same..Any decent angler will know not to fish tight to snags but unfortunately your average twice a season angler doesent think the same and will try their luck no matter what because to them it doesent matter..This scenario has been going on for years and will probably do so for many more..Sad but true..

 

[Andrew Boyne]

Very true Craig.

In answer to your original question - i started using carp fishing tackle when i realised Korda made better flat bombs than Dinsmores!