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When did Barbel fishing change?

Ian Grant said:
Jon, why do you consider the use of 30lb braid neccesary ?

Ian.
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Yes i do Ian, primarily for the fishes safety in mind? If i snag up i will either loose my feeder, break the hooklength or bend the hook and still retrieve my rig. My rig is an extremely safe non tethering rig which even if it did break the fish would be not be tethered.
In the course of a year i fish Low and clear/flood conditions, i may choose to fish leads up to 250 grams, or chuck a 7oz feeder 50 yards, at the extreme limit of the rivers conditions.
This is in the words of Robson Green is 'extreme fishing', but in many Trent anglers minds who fish all conditions, then this is the norm. Yes some on here will think its extreme even some Trent anglers, but through experience and knowledge i know my rig works firstly in the safety of the fish i catch.
 
Ian Grant said:
Jon, why do you consider the use of 30lb braid neccesary ?

Ian.
Click to expand...

Ian, a few years ago I watched a very experienced angler, fishing one of your club waters, with strong braid line, and having had a good barbel snag him had to pull for a break by wrapping his line over a thick stick and pulling for a break. Dread to think what happened to the barbel.
Some may argue that fishing with a light hooklink may be safer.

Personally, I believe that as soon as you cast a baited hook into the water there is a chance you could damage the welfare of the fish. Have to wrestle with your conscience and find what you feel is safe.
There is no perfect solution.
 
I have never used anything heavier than 12lb in any of my barbel fishing, more often than not I use 10lb on the Trent.

Makes me laugh when folks say the BIG river needs big tackle. Ok so if you are intent on chucking a feeder as big as a dustbin you need some sort of heavy rod, but I dont see the need in doing that either.
 
There seems to be a presumption that braid users are using excessively strong braid right to the hook. Amongst those that I know that do fish braid, this simply isn't the case. I don't know anyone using braid that does so to allow them to "haul barbel out". In fact, beyond the fact that braid is used as a mainline, their set ups are little different to that of someone using mono as a mainline.

If I use braid (I only do so on certain venues), my hooklinks are no different to those I'd use on snag pits where I'd not consider using braid. Therefore, I don't play a barbel any differently using braid as I do when using mono. Chances are that I'll have hooklinks made from the exact same flurocarbon anyway. What braid does allow me to do is get greater distance on a cast and use less lead to hold bottom, nothing more.
 
Jon Frisby said:
Yes i do Ian, primarily for the fishes safety in mind? If i snag up i will either loose my feeder, break the hooklength or bend the hook and still retrieve my rig. My rig is an extremely safe non tethering rig which even if it did break the fish would be not be tethered.
In the course of a year i fish Low and clear/flood conditions, i may choose to fish leads up to 250 grams, or chuck a 7oz feeder 50 yards, at the extreme limit of the rivers conditions.
This is in the words of Robson Green is 'extreme fishing', but in many Trent anglers minds who fish all conditions, then this is the norm. Yes some on here will think its extreme even some Trent anglers, but through experience and knowledge i know my rig works firstly in the safety of the fish i catch.
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Ok Jon,
I see why you feel the need, but for the life of me can't see the logic.

I'll state here that i've never fished with 30lb line in freshwater, and have never fished rivers of the magnitude of the Trent, the Thames is the biggest i've fished, and only as far down as Staines, so i may get an education here - and i always keep an open mind, so educate me :)

It's not the braid per se' that bothers me it's the breaking strain, if someone was using 30lb Mono i'd be just as critical.

To my mind the possibility of a fish, not neccesarily a Barbel, trailing possibly many yards of braid, and then winding itself into a snag. branches, roots, mid river obstacles, man made or not, - whatever, could easily get tethered even though the weight or feeder may no longer be connected.

You mention the possibility of the Hooklength breaking, but also the hook bending out, which suggests that you are either using a weak hook pattern or have very little in the way of a weak link. A fish that was capable of opening out most hooks used for barbel fishing would do a hell of a lot of damage to it's mouth doing so Jon.

I can see your argument for the sake of abrasion resistance, and chucking out huge weights to hold against the flow, and i agree with you i'd call this extreme fishing, if i had to fish a river like the trent i'd find other options.

Thinking about this as i'm writing i can think of built in saftey measures, - Barbless hooks ( i don't like them ) and a hooklength that was breakable with reasonable pressure, but given that you are talking of the hook opening out as a means of the fish freeing itself, or being able to retrieve your end tackle, are you using that kind of breaking strain for a hook length ?

I'd need some convincing before ever resorting to such methods Jon.

Regards
Ian.
 
When i first started Barbelling on the Trent, i fished with 8lb Maxima and caught a few fish in normal conditions, then as my knowledge grew and the conditions changed i broke on a few and through using a few fellow BFW's experience i upped my mainline to 15lb braid, which cut through the water well but had poor durability, so up it went to 20, but in some extreme conditions i had a couple of failures, so up it went to 30lb and thats where it has stayed.
As an ex matchmen the Breaking strain is massive, but in use it is ideal for me and may i say at least another dozen fellow barbellers also. Steve Pope uses 20lb power pro straight through to the hook, which is extremely thin braid and he is the head of the Barbel Society. I use a fluoro/braid combi which imo reduces any possible damage.
My rig has 3 built in safeties/weaklinks to prevent tethering including my feeder/ledger, the BS i use for hooklength is also a lot lower than my mainline, probably in comparison to your own, but sometimes upped to compensate with the kinetic energy involved that an increased feeder/ledger weight gives.
I can see peoples faces contorting to me using 30lb braid, but i know my rig is as safe as anybodies on this forum, if not safer in some instances, and i have seen a fair few.

Its not what you use, it the way you use it that counts.
 
Dave Durrant said:
Ian, a few years ago I watched a very experienced angler, fishing one of your club waters, with strong braid line, and having had a good barbel snag him had to pull for a break by wrapping his line over a thick stick and pulling for a break. Dread to think what happened to the barbel.
Some may argue that fishing with a light hooklink may be safer.

Personally, I believe that as soon as you cast a baited hook into the water there is a chance you could damage the welfare of the fish. Have to wrestle with your conscience and find what you feel is safe.
There is no perfect solution.
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Dave,
If he was using the kind of line strength we are talking of here, i'd have had more than a few words to say, we don't have a rule book the size of the yellow pages, as you know we prefer people to use their common sense, but the bailiffs - and i know they can't always be there, have the right to prevent anyone fishing in a manner which they feel may cause the fish undue harm or damage. For sure i'd have stopped him fishing if he couldn't have changed his line if i'd have seen it for myself, and again i'm not talking about the use of braid per se'.
Are you sure of the line strength though, you were there, i wasn't so i'm relying on your judgment here, i'm assuming it took a great deal of force to break the line, but he may have been pulling for a break in his own way.

Your last comment - agreed, we injure the fish just by hooking them, thats the nature of angling, but i would hope that every angler even if they intend to kill the fish, would take measures to ensure the fish is not damaged unessesarily, thats especially if it is to be released alive.
 
My rig has 3 built in safeties/weaklinks to prevent tethering including my feeder/ledger, the BS i use for hooklength is also a lot lower than my mainline, probably in comparison to your own, but sometimes upped to compensate with the kinetic energy involved that an increased feeder/ledger weight gives.
.[/QUOTE]

Jon i hope i'm not coming over as nit picking here, honestly thats not my intention, but i have to ask the question...

How does the Kinetic energy involved in casting any given weight affect your hooklink ?
 
Not at all Ian, its good to talk. By this i mean if you are fishing with a light lead and for instance a 4 foot hooklength, when a fish is hooked the swinging and bouncing of the weight/feeder when in and more so clear of the water will put some strain on the hooklength, the force involved will be significantly more the heavier the weight swinging. Either the hook will pull out or the line may part.

Jon
 
I think the main point to consider here is that if a barbel takes you into a snag, there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be the hooklink which gets caught up, a braided mainline will not give good abrasion resistance at all and could easily be broken in a rocky river or you may have to pull for a break, this could leave a fish well and truly tethered with yards of 30lb braid and lets face it, unless it can somehow throw the hook, that's where it will end it's days!!
 
Jon Frisby said:
Not at all Ian, its good to talk. By this i mean if you are fishing with a light lead and for instance a 4 foot hooklength, when a fish is hooked the swinging and bouncing of the weight/feeder when in and more so clear of the water will put some strain on the hooklength, the force involved will be significantly more the heavier the weight swinging. Either the hook will pull out or the line may part.

Jon
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Right ok with you there Jon, i had assumed you were talking from a point of view when casting.
 
hi all, interesting thread this, for what it's worth i think a big reason for the heavier gear, rods, line, hooks and everything else is that we want to get the barbel in as quickly as possible so as not to end up with exhausted fish that go belly up when released or need 3 hours nursing in the margins. i remember some 20 years ago catching a 6lb barbel on the nidd on a 2lb bottom, fishing for anything, 35 minutes to get it in the net, 20 minutes resting it in the marginal flow, now i am a lot older and hopefully a little wiser i would not feel comfortable playing any fish for anything like that length of time therefore stronger tackle is called for and in most cases is the only responsible way to go,
cheers, leon
 
Approaches are relative the circumstances one fishes.

Fishing the middle trent I used to keep things up close & personal using 3-4oz grippers with paste with 10lb line - the swims are a lot more accessible too. Once living in Notts, evening sessions were frequent.

Presently, I have few opportunities to fish, but when I do I have a 2hr drive & filling the barrow, over styles, ditches, fields that have no footpaths, are over grown & 3 hours from leaving the house I hope to be fishing. I have a lot of good gear which has been bought to minimise the load - the bulk being bait, food, water, milk & leads/swim feeders.

I do not want to replicate any of the gear I take knowing that I will be on the bank for on average 48 hours. So I want the flexibility to fish near side, middle or far bank. Last year I was using GR60 on very tidal reaches & found it difficult to hold bottom beyond half way with 8oz grippers in slightly elevated flows. This year using braid it is a doddle & fishing the far bank is an option. I don't want to take with me extra spools, breaking gear down to set back up.

I take a number of precautions to try & ensure that fish don't become snagged.

I enjoy camping on the river – it’s what it is about for me. I like to arrive, find the fish, set up, fish hard & sandwiched in the middle of the session with a full 24 hours & on the third day come home - knackered. I drink tea by the gallon, smoke fags like a chimney (do not drink alcohol under any circumstances) in the wide expanse of the river plain - getting the feel. Love it.

It necessitates using carp gear through & through. Next year, now I have better knowledge I will be trotting - but at night 2 rods on alarms, recasting every 30 mins till 2am. Up & down like a yo yo. Those tidal swims are nasty & steep & I pride myself, whilst I am young, on fishing the most precarious of swims. In 15 years I will not be able to do this - my body will not be capable – a most upsetting thought. So, with a good bedchair & the most comfy of sleeping bags I recover when I can & work hard as I can for the rest of the time spent there. I might not get down to the river for another month so I'll be damned the following week thinking that I could have worked harder than I did because I did not have the gear to cope.

So its carp gear all the way & I make no bones about it - no way.

But on fishing the W. Avon, I'll be in my chesties with a single 25 year old carp rod wandering & coming home early morning. Enjoyable but not my cup of tea as the camping is what its mostly about for me.
 
Ian Crook said:
I think the main point to consider here is that if a barbel takes you into a snag, there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be the hooklink which gets caught up, a braided mainline will not give good abrasion resistance at all and could easily be broken in a rocky river or you may have to pull for a break, this could leave a fish well and truly tethered with yards of 30lb braid and lets face it, unless it can somehow throw the hook, that's where it will end it's days!!
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Ian,

Agree entirely but in this scenario isn't the breaking strain of the mainline be it braid or mono irrelevant, on the assumption that it is higher than the breaking strain of hooklength.

8lb hooklength tied to 10lb mono would be no different to 8lb hooklength tied to 30lb braid, with the hooklength or hook hold being the weak spots and only likely escape routes for a tethered fish.

Regards
Richard
 
Richard/Jon,

You are probably right, re-thinking what I have written, I was more making the point that building in weak points like the hook length do not guarantee that is where the system will fail............
 
Personally I dislike fishing with braid - no stretch & the grating sensation of playing fish on the rods eyes. Horrible. But the advantages in this instance out weigh these two factors considerably for me...

Nice smooth mono - a pleasure!
 
The Chairman on Thursday

Subject: Braid - fine on a pretty gal, but not on rods


Braid was never the same after the demise of Cuttyhunk. I switched to Nylon (also best on a pretty gal) and, after a few early, stretchy I.C.I.-type disappointments, very quickly became a Monomaniac!

So that you know...


As ever,

B.B.
 
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