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Undergunned?

Ade, would you go after barbel with a 1 1/4 tc avon rod ? if so nthen try the wizard mate, personally if i could get a decent chance of fishing where 18 ib barbel are then it certainly wouldnt be my choice, nothing wrong with the wizards they were and still are nice rods to fish with on the right task, would you use it if targetting 20-30lb carp? somewhere in this garbeld post is the answer mate:)
 
Andrew Boyne said:
Must be a generation thing - i get excited when i see a Mk1 Armalite, or North Western - bean poles do nowt for me. :D
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Andrew; Mark ones, now that’s a proper rod mate. Still use mine for medium range deadbaiting. In the right hands, they will chuck a 4 to 5 inch joey, clipped to a 2oz weight 80 yards no problem. Perhaps not the rods to be discussing in a thread entitled Undergunned though.
Northwestern's! My Mum always told me if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all.
 
Albert Watkinson said:
Kevin,I know split cane rods and such are nice.i have the original Peter stone leger strike and also a ken smith glass match leger.i have had my fair share of barbel on them over the last 45 years but never use them now.they
don't cut it like my free spirits.a matter of opinion really.
Albert
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Absolutely Albert, My current boat rods for pikeing are 4, 9ft Free Spirit deadbait rods. My opinion is, I wish to hell and halfway back I had spent an extra 15 quid on each and bought 4 of Lumbies Lochtamers

Could not pull a greasy stick out of a dogs arse face.
 
John Walker said:
Ade, would you go after barbel with a 1 1/4 tc avon rod ? if so nthen try the wizard mate, personally if i could get a decent chance of fishing where 18 ib barbel are then it certainly wouldnt be my choice, nothing wrong with the wizards they were and still are nice rods to fish with on the right task, would you use it if targetting 20-30lb carp? somewhere in this garbeld post is the answer mate:)
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John
I am 60 and first fished for proper Barbel (not Calverton stockies) with my old man when I was ten. I have caught I would guess thousands (Calverton stockies included). A further guess would be about 90% of these were caught on rods of one and a quarter pound test curve or less. I had a fair number of these on a pair of one and a quarters built by Hutchie in Sandy. One of them accounted for a twenty pound pike from a narrow snaggy section of the upper Ouse. Caught on a meatball I may add before the Pike Police get on my case; and a good few river carp. Why is it, these days that the rod is not deemed suitable unless it can be used to chuck monstrous great feeders double the width of the Trent at Torksey?
While on this subject can anyone please explain to me why we still use what has become a total joke namely a test curve for measuring a rod's suitability for a task?
 
quite simply state whether you would purposely fish for 18lb barbel with a 11/4 tc cane rod Kevin, i am almost 67 and fished since a youngster, i used to finish off b/cane rods for myself and friends for years usung JW Martins
blanks from his small islington workshop, time it would take to tame a massive barbel with a b/can avon type rod would be enormous most times, no sorry i
prefer a more powerful rod to fish for big fish:)

the reason most of use use a t/c as a guide is that most find this gives us a good idea of whats what and until something better emerges as a guide for the masses is what we rely on
 
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John Walker said:
quite simply state whether you would purposely fish for 18lb barbel with a 11/4 tc cane rod Kevin, i am almost 67 and fished since a youngster, i used to finish off b/cane rods for myself and friends for years usung JW Martins
blanks from his small islington workshop, time it would take to tame a massive barbel with a b/can avon type rod would be enormous most times, no sorry i
prefer a more powerful rod to fish for big fish:)

the reason most of use use a t/c as a guide is that most find this gives us a good idea of whats what and until something better emerges as a guide for the masses is what we rely on
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Well said John, spot on mate.

Cheers, Dave.
 
John
My most frequent fishing partner has a Barder, he has more disposable than me. He can "tame" a big Barbel with that as fast as any man with any carbon rod. I rememder a post of Ade's once "When my Barbel hit the net they are still angry". So are mine, and my mates. If I was still fishing with the Hutchies it would take me no longer to stop any fish at all than it would with my current first choice Barbel rods which are built on Torrix one and three quarter blanks, which I think are over beefy for a good balanced Barbel setup. This thing about cane not been able to cope is just plain wrong, my Chapman’s 700 would stop Aldaniti mate.
 
Kevin, a builders rod is only as good as the cane he treats and forms ect,
names are nothing at least when cane was the best rods to use, in fact without trying to cause controversy chapmans rods were avoided by a great many specimen hunters but there were many what were great rods.
what i was stating is that a CANE 11/4 lb t/c is hardly an ideal choice in a river with 18lb barbel showing up, i still have a few cane rods but cannot remember last time they saw a riverbank mate, with barbel care is a top priority with barbelmen and using cane rods of 11/4 tc is going to take a long time to net it in most cases thus causing massive tiredness and stress.
yes i know the rods your on about, guy rob used to either use or promote them at harefeild tackle and they are nice rods,
ask guy if thats what he used for his thames 18, i never ever asked but i doubt if it was:)
 
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John, are you of the school of thought that Dennis Pye was a charlatan then. Now Dennis was to say the least a bit of a rouge but in his day undoubtedly the top pike angler in the country and in my book still there or there about. Record broads Pike, record broads carp, record broads rudd, record broads perch, Eastern Star Silver Fish trophy year after year was he not a “specimen Hunter then? According to the only man other than his brother that got close to him he used nothing else than Chapman's rods.
Peter Stone's Ledgerstrike! Top class rod, perhaps the best in its class of the day. Chapman's trademark separate butt section was an extremely innovative idea to produce a knotless blank. The classic blond Chapman’s cane, Blond because it did not spend days in the ovens like many fly rod makers bare material. This produced a much softer pliant built finish. Chapman's rods were and still are pure class mate they were made and still are made with a little bit of something from the heart profit came after quality. British rod firms like Meany others that put profit above quality are dead and buried long ago and if there was/ is a problem with them it is because of the light bake to achieve the same test curve as a mahogany coloured Alcock or similar, the cane section was heavier and the rods were no lightweights. Hence my quip earlier on in this thread "What Bankstick"
I have never pulled the tapers up but I have and still do every other job on a cane rod. Every cane rod I own with the exception of Betty, my cane tench rod has at least been scraped re whipped, doped and varnished by me. I do have some knowledge about rod deign I used to tournament cast to a very high standard and built my own rods for that; and I do know this, if I take a modern feeder rod with a test curve of one and a quarter pounds and what men of our certain age call a bottom rod be it cane, glass or carbon of one and quarter pounds and bend them both 180 degrees the bottom rod would be pulling with twice the force, and if it’s a cane rod, in working nick it aint even locked up yet. Test curves are completely and utterly irrelevant, always have been always will be, I have some writings somewhere by a very young Dick Walker that say the same so they are his words not mine.

I have an incurable disease it’s called colecterroditius test curves are a device used but tackle manufactures to flog rods to anglers who do not have that disease. I have another mate up north who does pull cane tapers, he could make you a one and a quarter that would pull harder than my torrix but it would be an unjoyous heavy beast to use so what would be the fun in that?
Incidentally, I cannot remember the guy’s name for the life of me but not that long ago in the grand scheme of things the Ouse record was held by a guy fishing with a Barder Maximus. A one pound six ounce test curve built cane rod; two ounce more pull at 90 degrees, do you think that makes such a big difference? Fish with your carbons if it pleases you John but please do not tell me what I can and cannot do with cane and I will have to ask you to trust me on this I bully fish out so I have been told, so don’t worry about me over stressing fish, it just don’t happen.
 
what on earth has that got to do with fishing with a wizard where 18lb barbel frequent kevin, nothing quite simply nothing so rather trhan clog these threads with nothing i end my posting on this thread and return to my little comfy spot back in the woodwork:)....j.w
 
I thought it was widening the debate a little John, just trying to prove you don’t need a rod designed on a computer by someone who’s main hobby involves the virtual slaughter of alien races or worse still, best not expound on that though.
Ade who started the thread appeared to appreciate the directions I was trying to explore.
Incidentally just out of devilment I measured the test curve of my super wizard this morning, It came out at one pound six ounce, I suspect Ade's has a similar pull.
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire it was Steve Curtin Jan 2004 had an Ouse Barbel of 18.6 on a Barder cane rod, I was wrong about it being an Ouse record though, it was the national record at the time.
Oh and one more thing, Ade didn’t mention test curves in his initial post, he did name the rod but knowing Ade well as I do I took that to mean any split cane rod. As you joined in the debate by talking about finishing rough built blanks I thought you were also entering a wider debate, perhaps I was wrong.
 
What rod we use is always a personal preference, doesn't matter what the species is that you fish for, the important thing is whether you enjoy it!

I have a Southwell's(supplied a lot of early B James built cane) Avon which I restored a couple of years ago after finding it for £2 on ebay. I've since used it for roach fishing in the canal, and for barbel on the Severn and enjoyed catching both, I couldn't do that with my 'normal' 1.75 barbel rod!

I also have a Chapman's FJT 'Roach' rod which makes a nice barbel rod and has also accounted for carp to nearly 20lbs on the float.
 
I think I'm going to risk it and use the thing next time I go to that venue, the bigger fish are fairly thin on the ground and chances are if I do get into a barbel it will only be one of the lesser high twelves or low teen fish which should be ok......And after all is said and done, what's the worst that can happen?
 
Ade,

This is probably the most interesting thread I have read on here for eons, so thanks for starting it and eliciting so many cultured discussion points.

There's been alot of old friends posting, with some fine, considered views too, so thanks all.

I have only one "grass" rod these days, recently fettlled by a Hull geezer known to a few here (PJ), my Richard Walker MarkIV Carp stick. I have never encountered anything over 11+ when using it and coupled with a 'pin didn't have any problems. I'm not sure I would risk it though, should I be fortunate enough to be in a swim with known 18+ barbel.

The best of luck when you do though, and it'll be a great tale!!

Mike
 
Watcha Os. As you may know PJ made Betty for me. When I get the brass together I will be asking him to make me replicas of the rods Pye used. Not the ones he put his name to, I’m getting on a bit to be doing weight training, the ones he actually used.
 
"Betty"

Awright, Kev',

I'm sure PJ'll be pleased to accommodate your future requirements and when he does I'm also sure you'll be as delighted with the results as many of his recipients are; he's an absolute star, with his self-taught work.

As I said above, really like this thread of Ade's and the way it's been run,

Mike
 
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