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Thoughts on Barbel wising up to rigs

Richard Bruton said:
Damian, I appreciate that this is barbel fishing world but here is a true carp fishing story.

During the early 90s I fished exclusively for carp. One day in Autumn I had cast out two rods, each with a single hook bait on and no freebies or groundbait. I was taking a pee when I heard the bite alarm start bleeping. Having quickly taken care of business I ran over to the rod but couldn't understand it.

The bite alarm continued to bleep but the bobbin wasn't moving. I stood there for probably 30 seconds trying to see any movement, which I couldn't. I could only conclude that a fish had picked up the bait and just the slight tensioning of the line was sufficient to slightly move the roller on the bite alarm and thus the "blade" on the end of the roller that "cut" the beam of light from the LED. I struck - 21lb carp hooked and landed.

At no time did I perceive any movement on the line.
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I read what you are writing, Richard but would still suggest that fish was preoccupied with feeding.

I am of the opinion that too much intelligence per se is ascribed fish. Yes, they can learn to associate with danger regular occurrences followed by visits to the bank, but they are limited in firstly their intelligence and secondly what they can do in action to counter that!
They act on instinct which sometimes will mean they feed cautiously, and sometimes, conversely, they will feed throwing complete and utter caution to the wind.
 
Damien, there are scientific studies relating to fish behaviour that suggests that fish can learn to avoid some fishing methods and are able to transmit their fears to other fish. The old 'memory of a goldfish' analogy is well out of date.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Reading on here I get the impression that some people think fish are that astute that upon realising they have picked up and been pricked on a baited hook, they try to rid themselves of it. Is that the case?
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Yes definitely Damian. My pb did exactly that. I could see the rod tip shaking and the baitrunner was very slowly letting out line. It was pretty clear what was happening, the fish picked up the hair rigged bait, felt the hook and tried to very carefully eject it and back slowly out of the danger area.. Obviously due to having been caught before, this led to it not bolting and giving a more obvious take. This is the only time I have experienced it though.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
I read what you are writing, Richard but would still suggest that fish was preoccupied with feeding.

I am of the opinion that too much intelligence per se is ascribed fish. Yes, they can learn to associate with danger regular occurrences followed by visits to the bank, but they are limited in firstly their intelligence and secondly what they can do in action to counter that!
They act on instinct which sometimes will mean they feed cautiously, and sometimes, conversely, they will feed throwing complete and utter caution to the wind.
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Maybe some do exaggerate the intelligence of fish, but I think more people underestimate it. They do act on instinct but instinct requires most wild creatures to have a certain capacity for learning in order not to go extinct. Therefore the more they are pursued the more and quicker they are likely to learn. I accept you have a point about a vibrating rod tip being merely a fish happily feeding and not bolting because it is unaware of the hook, but I think it would happen far more regularly if that was the case. As I said, my pb was the only time I've experienced that type of bite.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
I would posit that a vibrating rod top will not be induced by a fish holding station and trying to rid itself of what it has come to know as a baited hook. I would suggest that it is and are fish that are preoccupied with feeding that have been hooked and that preoccupation has over taken that fear of being caught to the point they fail to recognise they have been hooked.
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It’s a very good point Damien, and it was my first though as invariably I’m using maggots or casters. But it hasn’t happened to me with a single barbel under 11lb.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
I read what you are writing, Richard but would still suggest that fish was preoccupied with feeding.

I am of the opinion that too much intelligence per se is ascribed fish. Yes, they can learn to associate with danger regular occurrences followed by visits to the bank, but they are limited in firstly their intelligence and secondly what they can do in action to counter that!
They act on instinct which sometimes will mean they feed cautiously, and sometimes, conversely, they will feed throwing complete and utter caution to the wind.
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I respect your opinion Damian but would like to site another example, again carp related not barbel.

My regular carp fishing buddy during the 90s was carp fishing a shallow lake when he had a few bleeps on his bite alarm. He looked at the rod - nothing. He then looked out to where the bait was placed. He could see a carps tail sticking out of the water and rotating. He struck and landed the fish.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
It’s a very good point Damien, and it was my first though as invariably I’m using maggots or casters. But it hasn’t happened to me with a single barbel under 11lb.
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If for trying to highlight a fishes weight as a sign of a learned intelligence by that of it's age, it should be remembered that fish gain weight at different rates, across the sexes. ie. you may just as easily say that you may not have had it happen with a fish under 7lb as a male fish at that weight may have been caught as many times as a female at 11lb. Is that fair?
I personally think it is nothing more than a simple example of self preservation, which like I said, is occasionally completely thrown out of the window.
To perhaps put this theory to the test, it should stand to be the case that being a learned intelligence all of the indications that said fish would give consequently should be the same should it not? In which case it should be an ever more frequently occurring indication?
 
Damian Kimmins said:
If for trying to highlight a fishes weight as a sign of a learned intelligence by that of it's age, it should be remembered that fish gain weight at different rates, across the sexes. ie. you may just as easily say that you may not have had it happen with a fish under 7lb as a male fish at that weight may have been caught as many times as a female at 11lb. Is that fair?
I personally think it is nothing more than a simple example of self preservation, which like I said, is occasionally completely thrown out of the window.
To perhaps put this theory to the test, it should stand to be the case that being a learned intelligence all of the indications that said fish would give consequently should be the same should it not? In which case it should be an ever more frequently occurring indication?
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I can only go on what I’ve experienced and I’ve only had these type of bites from 11lb plus fish. But I get your point.

I’m not sure I’d use the term ‘learnt intelligence’, rather ‘learnt behaviour’, if indeed that’s what it is?
 
Let me go way back in time to the 70s for this [carp related] story,in the days of Heron bite alarms [didnt use them] open bail arms,line clips ,silver paper indicater on the line. Runs galore for 2 seasons with every fish hooked on the new high protein bait we used, as my good friend got hold of the recipe.3rd season some runs which resulted in smaller fish but mostly reeling in a bare hook[hair rig not yet discovered] so the fish were sucking in & crushing the boily ejecting the hook.Plan B was concocked bigger baits with a added hardish ingredient to make it more crunchier to disguise the hook,bite indication was a Fairy liquid top with glued isotope placed between the 2nd & 3rd tip rings with a 3inch drop after a lot of trail & error. It all came together with a 1inch lift on the bottle top & eventually a pb 30lb+ fish in the net.no there wasnt kilos of bait going in,so imo they learnt. Thanx for reading
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I can only go on what I’ve experienced and I’ve only had these type of bites from 11lb plus fish. But I get your point.

I’m not sure I’d use the term ‘learnt intelligence’, rather ‘learnt behaviour’, if indeed that’s what it is?
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Yes, I guess more a learned sign of intelligence is what I was thinking.
It should stand to be the case that these types of bites are ever more frequently occurring those shouldn't it, Joe, if it was the case of a learned behaviour?
 
I’d say that less than 10% of the Royalty Barbel I’ve caught have given the archetypal three foot twitch.

Most bites are of the rattle and twitch variety. Some have been slightly more aggressive variations of that, I suppose. Quite a few have been very finicky bites that I would’ve bet money on being Bream and I’ve struck more out of frustration than anything, then all hell has broken loose! Also drop backs and slow pulls after a couple of trembles.

When I fish the Wye, the typical wrap arounds are a bit of a novelty. Ironically, the few I’ve had on the Royalty, I’ve tended to be looking at a Kingfisher or it’s when my old man FaceTimes or I get a text from work. And they’ve been fish in the 3-6lb bracket. The five doubles I’ve had over the last couple of years have all been bites of a ‘different’ nature though.

I will add the caveat that it’s quite a small data set and my catch rates are definitely not what you’d call prolific!
 
I remember the late great Dick Walker writing last century of two different types of barbel bite touch ledgering. One was a straight forward pull but one he described as feeling like a hacksaw pulled across the line when the rod tip did not even move. Same swim, same spot, same session. One barbel pulled whilst one barbel hacksawed! On the float some drag slowly under, some shoot under so fast the rod pulls round before you can even lift it. I have caught quite a few barbel on the lead on drop backs, even from downstream. Perhaps the moral of this thread is "Be Alert" to anything that happens and "Be Prepared" to change your rig / bait and to anything that could be a bite and act accordingly! It could be a PB!
 
Bob Gill said:
Competition, dominance and danger areas ?
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I'd agree Bob ... they're 3 factors involved in the equation. I think we're only on safe ('knowledge') ground if we accept that the only thing we do know for certain is that we don't know. We're merely best-guessing, surmising, theorising, and all the time tempted to assign attributes/skills to fish that humans possess. We 'humanise' to a degree. We can get lulled into believing that fishes' actions are due to actual learned 'cause and effect' thinking,.... (i.e. If THIS .... then THAT) and most probably that isn't the case.
My best guess is that fish associate A with B, this with that, etc. e.g. the sight of pink luncheon meat = danger. I don't believe fish think "this is a dangerous situation". I think, most probably, they associate certain elements/facets/'things' in a situation with danger (not 'remember', but have a 'formed association'... so they feel threatened). It's a reflex action, not a considered one. And the older the fish is, the more 'associations' it will have. The fish isn't smarter/cleverer/more intelligent, it just has more 'associations with danger due to past experiences' not 'memories'.
Whatever, the fish become harder to catch (for me, for sure💩).
 
Damian Kimmins said:
If for trying to highlight a fishes weight as a sign of a learned intelligence by that of it's age, it should be remembered that fish gain weight at different rates, across the sexes. ie. you may just as easily say that you may not have had it happen with a fish under 7lb as a male fish at that weight may have been caught as many times as a female at 11lb. Is that fair?
I personally think it is nothing more than a simple example of self preservation, which like I said, is occasionally completely thrown out of the window.
To perhaps put this theory to the test, it should stand to be the case that being a learned intelligence all of the indications that said fish would give consequently should be the same should it not? In which case it should be an ever more frequently occurring indication?
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Maybe a case can be made for it occurring more frequently if we attribute it to the older fish. But you have to also consider that this type of bite/phenomenon is only likely when a fish has actually felt the hook to provoke this reaction in the first place. Also, I'm sure fish, as with all creatures, vary in degrees of cunning and how they react to certain circumstances.
 
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