• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Thoughts on Barbel wising up to rigs

Stuart Linton said:
Half of the rigs carp anglers use are to solve the problem that they created in the first place ie mass baiting with particle sized baits that are used all of the time especially with the advent of the spomb again used all of the time. It is interesting to see the increase in catches from two waters I know since they became boilie only waters. Picking up large individual food items and moving to the next will hook fish easier even with the crudest of rigs.

I just think the solution to hooking problematic fish is usually more straightforward ie length of rig, size of hook /bait, baiting patterns /amount and so on. Those solutions are just not as sexy as using certain trending rigs.

Alot of carp rigs do not work in the way people think they do with very few exceptions. One common denominator with most of the successful rigs currently about is using an extension of the hook ala the hinge, choddie, Ronnie etc none of which I find is an asset to hooking Barbel.

I do find Neil's situation very interesting though and follow with interest and an open mind.
Click to expand...
Cheers Stuart, after not hooking one once I’d realised my bait was sat amongst 5 or 6 Barbel I was feeling a little wounded shall we say haha… but I’ve now been back twice and had a fish a trip so I’m getting over it slightly. Maybe it was the big hook bait at the time or maybe they was just in a funny mood?!? No idea, either way I’m still finding it easier than the those Road lake carp, they ran circles round me. We spoke a few times the season I was there not sure you’ll remember.. you still doing a bit at longfield?
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Reading on here I get the impression that some people think fish are that astute that upon realising they have picked up and been pricked on a baited hook, they try to rid themselves of it. Is that the case?
Click to expand...
Damian, I appreciate that this is barbel fishing world but here is a true carp fishing story.

During the early 90s I fished exclusively for carp. One day in Autumn I had cast out two rods, each with a single hook bait on and no freebies or groundbait. I was taking a pee when I heard the bite alarm start bleeping. Having quickly taken care of business I ran over to the rod but couldn't understand it.

The bite alarm continued to bleep but the bobbin wasn't moving. I stood there for probably 30 seconds trying to see any movement, which I couldn't. I could only conclude that a fish had picked up the bait and just the slight tensioning of the line was sufficient to slightly move the roller on the bite alarm and thus the "blade" on the end of the roller that "cut" the beam of light from the LED. I struck - 21lb carp hooked and landed.

At no time did I perceive any movement on the line.
 
Terry Harman said:
can almost guarantee that has happened to most of us one time or another many times i’ve struck at a vibrating rod tip and found myself attached to a barbel as for ejecting a bare hook i would say a basic hair rig could be ejected if the mechanics of the rig don’t allow it to turn
Click to expand...
This has happened to me several times when chub fishing. The only indication is a tiny vibration on the tip of the quiver as if a minnow was worrying the bait. I've landed a few big chub in this situation (including a 6.09 whilst fishing next to BFW contributer Alex Warren from the Royalty a few years a go).
 
Neil Lumby said:
Cheers Stuart, after not hooking one once I’d realised my bait was sat amongst 5 or 6 Barbel I was feeling a little wounded shall we say haha… but I’ve now been back twice and had a fish a trip so I’m getting over it slightly. Maybe it was the big hook bait at the time or maybe they was just in a funny mood?!? No idea, either way I’m still finding it easier than the those Road lake carp, they ran circles round me. We spoke a few times the season I was there not sure you’ll remember.. you still doing a bit at longfield?
Click to expand...
I do remember you mate. Still a bailiff on there so dip in and out while fishing other places. Glad you're getting amongst them.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
I think it’s worth pointing out, I honestly do not believe the fish feels the hook penetrate, think about tench that pick up a bait and sit there, we’ve all had it. I’ve picked up a motionless rod on numerous occasions to find a Chub hooked. The nerves aren’t there to do that, a fishes mount and a Mammals mouth a very different, a Barbels mount is a gravel sieve not another sensitive tool like ours. In my opinion, It’s the resistance that causes the fish to bolt, that feeling of being pulled or hindered.
The most important parts of a rig is pretty simple, but potentially difficult to achieve. The bait must move/behave as though it’s not swinging off an anchor and the hook must be placed to penetrate the mouth when the bait is ingested.
Click to expand...
The fish may or may not feel the hook, but it will become restrained in that it becomes tethered to the lead or feeder. When a fish realises that it could bolt or sit trying to unthether itself.
 
Terry Simner said:
So you're having a great sesh, almost a fish a cast ... but you're thinking "I'll change my rig as this one's so successful" Yes?
I wouldn't describe changing a feeder in a match "a small thing", as changing the speed/amount of feed going into a swim can have massive effect on catch rate.
Re. your roach fishing .. Well yes, you've identified a problem ("tactics aren't working very well") and you look for a solution. But if your tactics were working well and you were catching, would you then change them (just for the sake of change?)

All I'm trying to say is, make sure you do have got a 'problem', and what that problem is, before you look for a solution.
Click to expand...
Yes I’d be trying things even if I was catching.

Different hook patterns.

Different bait combinations - mostly relevant to hook/bait buoyancy. No rubber maggots, 1 rubber/2 rubber etc etc.

Altering the way the hooklink is attached to the mainline etc etc.

Im a pessimist - so I always think I’ve got it wrong; and that I can improve things.
 
Not sure where this thread will end but if there is one thing I have learned when Barbel fishing is keep it simple.
Free running leger, Rubber Buffer Bead, swivel and hook trace. the only variables as far as I am concerned is size of weight, material (braid or mono) - length - strength of hook trace (longer in low flow - shorter in flood conditions) and size of hook (only use sizes 6 to 2) and with or without hair (bait dependant). Rod/reel/line to suit river conditions/ 1.75 to 2.25 tc rods, 6000 baitrunner or centre pin and mono lines 15 - 18lbs BS. This is for fishing lower Severn. Bait meat 90% or boilies when eels are troublesome.
 
Doesn't matter does it. It's your game, no rights and wrongs.
I'm always busy when I'm fishing. I think it's subconscious as my fishing time is my happy place and I like to think about nothing else and clear my head. e.g. yesterday all I wanted to do was fling a couple of dead baits out and have a snooze as I was knackered, both mentally & physically( but still got up at 5.30 to go fishing!!). I did just that , started to think about the week ahead at work and that was enough to set up a free-roving rod, a tip rod or livebaits and get busy.
Paid off with 5 nice pike , 3 on livebaits and i had a good day....fishing not thinking.
Similar when barbel or chub fishing. If I'm catching I do leave alone, but that in itself occupies the mind. If I'm not I tinker and change without hesitation. More often than not it saves a blank but not always. But I nearly always come off thinking " I fished my best "
My retired friend fishes line & length, same rig, bait & strategy every trip and catches plenty of barbel but also has more blanks.
It doesn't mean he's wrong, he still loves being there and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.
 
This thread had been been really interesting. Thanks to the OP.

To better understand the thread title, we need to unpick what is meant by 'rig'. For most, that definition would probably mean the elements down from the lead/feeder, which is arguably the most important part. But you've also got to consider that anything 'foreign' that we're putting into the environment of the target species, may also need to be considered, within the context of the question.

Yes, location, knowledge of the stretch of river you're fishing, watercraft and an appropriate application of a decent bait are arguably of more importance, but if you have achieved the aforementioned; the next logical step is to ensure that the bits at the 'business end' are functioning as efficiently and soundly as possible.

I fish the Royalty Fishery on the Hants Avon pretty frequently. I think most would it would agree that it's a pretty 'pressured' stretch. I've made a few observations during the Summer months over the last few years. The crystal clear waters and a good set of polaroids give you a fascinating insight into the behaviour of Barbel, when you're lucky enough to encounter them.

A few observations that I've made that have been quite interesting:

I've observed Barbel seemingly spooking off of my 'spot' when using modern braid type hook links that are non-flecked/a single colour tone in their appearance, from memory, I think it was one of the Korda offerings. When you lay a length of this type of braid in the edge over the same kind of light gravel substrate that you're fishing over, it can stand out quite clearly. I think in these instances it was the sight of the hook link material that spooked the fish. In one instance, the three actively feeding fish I had in the swim bolted and weren't seen again for several hours. On another occasion (different material, but same issue, I think) saw two fish bolt from the swim, one taking the other with it. They didn't return. This happened when they were a good 18 inches - 2 feet downstream from the rig itself. I was well concealed during both sessions and there seemed to be no obvious other factors that would've frightened the fish. It got me thinking 'How many times does that happen when we can't see into the area where our rig is sitting?' I'm not saying that everything associated with your end tackle needs needs to be 'Carpy camo', but if it stands out in clear water, my belief is that it can cause fish to spook or certainly behave in a manner that it detrimental to getting a chance of hooking one. For this reason, I now opt for a flecked braid, I've actually gone a bit 'old skool' and am using Merlin and Silkworm currently. My current hook link rig is actually a fluorocarbon/braid combi, using an Albright knot to connect the two materials (but let's not open that can of worms again!).

I've also seen Barbel spooking when they come into contact with fluorocarbon hook links. The difference being that, in this instance it was the actual physical contact with the material that frightened them. I would imagine that the same can be said for feeders, (some) leads and any other bits that feel 'unnatural' when they come into contact with them in their environment. If they do touch them, either with their flanks, pecs, snout or barbules, they don't seem to like it and either bolt or (slightly better outcome) seem to be more cautious than you'd like. The same phenomena had also happened with my mainline. I back-lead to try to mitigate against the mainline issue, but I do occasionally theorise in my head that this could actually accentuate this issue in some applications, creating a 'trip wire' type effect. I think it all depends on where the fish are moving to and from in the specific area you're fishing. I also think that some modern braid materials blend in really nicely with the type of substrate that I tend to fish over, but don't have the softness required and actually seem to have a mono-esque sheen and feel to them, I avoid these too. I suppose we have to consider the old adage 'Would you rather bump into something you can see or something you can't see?' here. That latter being more of a 'shock' to fish moving around in your swim. I realise the outcomes of this specific observation is slightly at odds with my current chosen hook link set up, but I've found that by using fluorocarbon, the Barbel seem to approach the rig with less caution and having that small section of supple and soft material right at the most important end lessens the chance of fish spooking or realising something isn't right at the crucial moment, something I've also seen happen in situ on more than one occasion when just using fluorocarbon straight through.

Regarding the plethora of modern carp rigs, I think if we actually look at a lot of them, they're very clever in what they do, but I don't think that some of their uses and designs are of a great deal of use to Barbel anglers. Things like Ronnie and Spinner rigs primary plus points are that they they 'reset' when disturbed by feeding fish, etc. I think the fact we're usually fishing in fast flowing water does this for us, regardless of the rig we're using. I'm no expert in the nuances of Carp rigs though, and as ever am happy to hear opinions to the contrary. Having said that, I sometimes see little rig making tutorials on Instagram and YouTube and am tempted to have a go with them. I think one called the 'Noodle Rig' piqued my interest recently. Playing around with anti-eject type hairs and rigs is something that I haven't done, but I'd certainly wager that at very least they wouldn't do any harm. It's definitely something I'd consider.

I believe another factor to consider that has been touched on by others in this thread is the way a bait behaves once in situ. I remember fishing on a fast clear gravel run, using and feeding 14 & 16mm pellets. Once the I had 'primed' the spot and had the four fish in the peg confidently taking free offerings, I lowered in a rig expecting a relatively quick hook up, but was left frustrated by the fish picking up all of the free offerings, but not taking the hook bait. I use the phrase 'not taking' instead of ignoring, as the feeding fish quite frequently came right to the bait and nudged it, picked it up and ejected it quickly and began to do this with some of the free offerings too. On a few occasions, the contact with the bait or ejections would result in the fish spooking off for 10-20 minutes, but continued sparse feeding saw them return. Each of these nudges and pick ups on the hair rigged pellet gave the type of indications on the rod tip that I would've normally associated with Chub. Fascinating and frustrating in equal measure. I hooked the biggest of the four eventually that day, after being on the edge of my seat for about five hours. And lost it! I am convinced that the fish on that occasion were aware that something wasn't right and were therefore testing each bait. The fact that my bait was 'tethered' effectively meant that it didn't behave the same as the other freebies. Maybe that was a day when a critically balance bait could've got me a quicker bite. Again, this is not something I've tried, but the manner in which Barbel feed would suggest that this could give an edge. I think there needs to be a clear distinction on this aspect of the thread between natural baits and baits that behave naturally.

Regarding all of the above, they are just some of my experiences and I'm not suggesting for a second that every fish in every river behaves in the ways that I've listed above. I'm not even suggesting that the fish on the Royalty behave in that manner all of the time. Add some colour in the water during a winter flood and I think most finesse can go out of the window. Or get a few fish 'going' on maggots or over hemp and it can be a different ball game! All part of the fun, I guess.

I realise I've gone off on a few tangents, so...

Do Barbel wise up to rigs, elements of them or their mechanics? Yes, I think they do.

Are there things we can do to mitigate against this? Yes, I think so.

Is it always necessary? Probably not.

Also, to summarise, I think there are some that demonstrate a resistance to more modern approaches, often stimulated and borrowed from Carp fishing techniques and tactics. That's an individual's choice, I suppose. There are some that enjoy fishing and catching using more traditional methods and others that have taken some modern elements are are happy and confident doing so. Fair enough, on both fronts. And there are others that are deeper thinkers/tinkerers that happily adopt new and different techniques. As long as we are all catching the odd one occasionally and are enjoying our chosen pastime, using rigs, baits and methods that are fair and safe, it's very much 'each to their own'. If you're employing more simple tactics and having to think less about some of the dilemmas that I've listed above and you're catching 'em, then I'm very envious!
 
Very interesting thread with much food for thought . One thing I have observed in clear water is Barbel and other species get very spooked by hitting the tight line above the ledger / feeder ,it really does put them off . I am not convinced that Barbel can see hooklinks but they can definetly feel a tight line against their flanks / heads . In terms of baits , barbel have catholic taste and will eat almost anything ,this said I have found that if having no success in a swim , changing to a completely different bait can often lead to a positive take
 
Alex Warren said:
Maybe that was a day when a critically balance bait could've got me a quicker bite.
Click to expand...
Truly excellent post Alex (IMO)...and I for one agree with all you say. I'm not so sure about critically balanced baits in (especially fast) flowing water though. I've spend a fair bit of (close season) time messing around with CBBs, and I believe that time spent has paid dividends with my tench fishing. But it flowing water we can't get away from the fact that our baited hooks will be downstream of our ledger/feeder, and will be anchored by that weight. Still water anglers have the great luxury of being able to very accurately imagine/predict how a bait hook will/might behave in still water, and if they haven't got a good imagination they can always check their rigs out in a sink/bath. But many of those predictable results go completely 'out of the window' when such a rig is introduced to flowing water, especially fast flowing/turbulent water. A critically balanced, but anchored bait, could quite possibly behave very differently than the free offerings around it, dancing about all over the place, as pop-ups are apt to do :eek:.
To me it's all about pragmatism ...doing what works in practice, not what should work in theory. First establish you have got a problem, then try to establish what that problem is, then experiment in an attempt to find a/the solution (accepting that it may only be the 'solution' in that swim, on that day, with that bait). A rig might read good, and look good, in a book/video, but on the bed of a flowing river it may be a load of unnecessary and inefficient junk.
That said, if you're a certain type of angler that likes to try a new rig, or subtle variation of a rig, with each and every cast you make, then fair enough. Enjoy. But if you're an angler that fishes med/fast flowing water with a bait-covered hook (paste/meat/heavily wrapped pellet or boilie etc) then?
As an aside ... on some rivers, especially small rivers, I don't want my rigs to catch every fish that picks up the bait, as landing an 8oz chub could wreck a swim I've been baiting for an hour before introducing a hook bait. On the Teme, Arrow etc, barbel anglers used to have 3-4cm in between bait and hook so as to avoid hooking chublets. So, as ever, it's a balance.
 
Just a bit from an article on the site " I saw her again today"

First written about 15 years ago.

Graham Elliott

"I saw her again today" By Graham Elliott​

Not open for further replies.
Watch
[IMG alt="Articles"]https://barbel.co.uk/forum/data/avatars/m/1/1536.jpg?1518094182[/IMG]

Articles​

Super Moderator​


Staff member
"I saw her again today"



By Graham Elliott


July

I saw Her again today.

Five fish swam past, pecking at a few offerings, but only from habit not from hunger. The biggest was a good double, over 11lb I should imagine. A few chub drifted by, in that sideways style they favour. I hooked one and the rest scooted. 5lb 6oz.

An hour later, from my position in the tree I watched as two very large barbel dropped back and suddenly picked up a few bits of bait. I slivered down but they had moved on by the time I had got my rod in my hand. They were seriously big fish, 12lb and rising.
A barbel I estimate at 8lb+ in the clear water comes to the net at just under 10lb. The other fish in the area glide into the safety of the nearby weed strands.

Twenty minutes later, back in the tree, watching, first the chub, and what a chub broad backed and looking like a carp. How big? At the very least 7lb. It dropped back from the weed bed.........and there she was
The third time in three days in the same place. Probably the largest barbel I have seen.
Always on her own, except for the big chub that shows at the same time. How big? Big enough to fill your dreams and then some.

At the moment though, it's a bit of a nightmare. She picks up 2 or 3 pieces of bait and that's it. 4 hours later maybe 2 more. If I put few baits the chub clear them, if I put lots it would be like winning the lottery if she chooses the one with the hook. I think I need to go and leave her. At least until the water colours up some and she is not so shy, hopefully. Stay safe Beauty.

image002.jpg


A month passes and we are into August.
Still the water remains crystal clear and the river looks like a river should do. It glistens along almost with a mirror coating on the top. Reflections of the wonderful fauna tickle the surface and break up into shards of light as a chub or dace noses a fly from the silky smoothness. The weed flows with a constant rhythm, dancing and swaying to the silent beat.

The barbel are not yet nervous of anglers, however they need to be tricked a little to pickup a baited hook. Watch and learn, the deposit of time to be paid back with interest when the river colours and deepens and other venue challenges are tackled.
The line is heavy and visible, yet the barbel approach without a care. One nudges the line, almost caresses it alongside its form as it passes up to the baited area. Suddenly they spook wildly, in different directions. What happened?

I watch the same thing a few times until it become clear. The barbel did not worry at all about the visibility of the line, they swam alongside it, brushed it even, until another fish moved it on to them unawares, the natural reaction, inbuilt for survival being to rush away, escape. I try to relate this to human behaviour.
Safety means as you walk through a forest and brush aside the tangled branches and the leaves, you see them and visualise no problem, but if one suddenly reached out and touched you from behind? Would you jump?
 
Taking Alex Warren's post above. This part interests me:

I fish the Royalty Fishery on the Hants Avon pretty frequently. I think most would it would agree that it's a pretty 'pressured' stretch. I've made a few observations during the Summer months over the last few years. The crystal clear waters and a good set of polaroids give you a fascinating insight into the behaviour of Barbel, when you're lucky enough to encounter them.

A few observations that I've made that have been quite interesting:

I've observed Barbel seemingly spooking off of my 'spot' when using modern braid type hook links that are non-flecked/a single colour tone in their appearance, from memory, I think it was one of the Korda offerings. When you lay a length of this type of braid in the edge over the same kind of light gravel substrate that you're fishing over, it can stand out quite clearly. I think in these instances it was the sight of the hook link material that spooked the fish. In one instance, the three actively feeding fish I had in the swim bolted and weren't seen again for several hours. On another occasion (different material, but same issue, I think) saw two fish bolt from the swim, one taking the other with it. They didn't return. This happened when they were a good 18 inches - 2 feet downstream from the rig itself. I was well concealed during both sessions and there seemed to be no obvious other factors that would've frightened the fish. It got me thinking 'How many times does that happen when we can't see into the area where our rig is sitting?' I'm not saying that everything associated with your end tackle needs needs to be 'Carpy camo', but if it stands out in clear water, my belief is that it can cause fish to spook or certainly behave in a manner that it detrimental to getting a chance of hooking one. For this reason, I now opt for a flecked braid, I've actually gone a bit 'old skool' and am using Merlin and Silkworm currently. My current hook link rig is actually a fluorocarbon/braid combi, using an Albright knot to connect the two materials (but let's not open that can of worms again!)
Click to expand...
From an animal training point of view if someone described that behaviour with their dog my thoughts are that the animal has learned to recognise a certain scenario, in this case the assembled rig and bait, with suspicion and / or danger.

To overcome the negative behaviour I would look at dismantling some parts of the scenario to change the overall impression. Anglers are followers of fashion and many will use the same elements in their rigs. And the presentation and baits may also be similar. What I would suggest is to avoid using anything that is popular and can be dispensed with or substituted for something else: silicone sleeves, swivels, feeders, lead coloured weights, for example. Also, luncheon meat, pellets and boilies will come into that category. I would also avoid PVA bags as the residual scent might alert the fish.

It is time to think outside the box and just keep the elements that you cannot change like the hook and line. Why not use an inline camouflaged weight stopped by a black oval split ring or old fashioned split shot? No sleeve, no swivel, and a lump of cheese paste or Marmite flavoured bread paste burying the hook. In summer I use garden snails and whelks when stalking marginal weed feeding carp. For chub I get cockchafer grubs out of the compost bin and have had barbel and carp take them. Also whole maize grains have caught me a lot of barbel and carp and I bet nobody on the Royalty is using it. Half a pint of maize grains in a tightish patch with your hook bait somewhere in the middle might well go undetected.

I have no experience of fishing hard fished waters, but in Alex's scenario that is what I would be looking at. No point in continuing in the same manner and reinforcing the negative behaviour.



.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top