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Thoughts on Barbel wising up to rigs

Loving the input from everyone on this subject, I’ve taken on board a few suggestions and ideas and will give it a go. I’ve left the barbel in that area alone for the last couple of days just dropping a bit of bait in each evening with the intention of having another go tomorrow I’ll post any happenings
 
My pb off the Hants Avon was taken on a pop-up sliding hair rig.

My pb off the Dorset Stour was on the rig Stu Morgan uses at the end of the "Barbel even closer" DVD ie a long shank hook with the underside of the boilie removed and the bait positioned so that the barbel basically has to take the hook into its mouth if picking up the bait. The bait on this rig was also buoyant.
 
Richard Bruton said:
My pb off the Hants Avon was taken on a pop-up sliding hair rig.

My pb off the Dorset Stour was on the rig Stu Morgan uses at the end of the "Barbel even closer" DVD ie a long shank hook with the underside of the boilie removed and the bait positioned so that the barbel basically has to take the hook into its mouth if picking up the bait. The bait on this rig was also buoyant.
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I'd forgotten about the rig Stu Morgan cleared up on in that DVD. Seems like an age since that came out, wonder what those two are up to now?
 
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Well thanks for all the tips and advice… maybe it was the smaller bait size and smaller hook size, or maybe the shorter than normal hooklink or maybe just a couple of evenings of baiting without fishing for em?? Either dropped in tonight on dark, lowered a rig and it whacked round in less than 2 minutes!! 9.12 and incidentally the first fish I had from this spot about month or so back was also 9.12 but checking the photos it’s definitely a different fish so I’ll take that. Cheers!
 
I'm totally sold on the idea that if a bait behaves 'naturally' then the chances of success will be greatly increased, and that's why I'm such a great fan of freelining/trundling ... it will catch fish from 'dead' swims. And whilst I've used pop-ups and had some success, in running water (especially) it would seem to be the antithesis of a 'natural presentation. So whilst we may think we're being effective in using a pop-up presentation to reduce bait-ejection, we are using a presentation that is anything but natural ... especially in flowing water (IMO)
 
I’d really like to “get into” free lining and trundling. With that in mind I picked up a 1.25tc rod that will hopefully allow to get on with it next summer.
I’ve done a bit of free lining log worms for Chub but it’s very limited in its application.
 
What does natural
Terry Simner said:
I'm totally sold on the idea that if a bait behaves 'naturally' then the chances of success will be greatly increased, and that's why I'm such a great fan of freelining/trundling ... it will catch fish from 'dead' swims. And whilst I've used pop-ups and had some success, in running water (especially) it would seem to be the antithesis of a 'natural presentation. So whilst we may think we're being effective in using a pop-up presentation to reduce bait-ejection, we are using a presentation that is anything but natural ... especially in flowing water (IMO)
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I get your point, but a huge proportion of a barbels natural food source is not moving through the swim with the current though is it? Certainly not many of the inverts, crustaceans and molluscs which are anchored to the stones and rocks on the river bed.

I think we can hung up on what we perceive to look natural. I'm struggling to think of what in nature looks like a large lump of processed luncheon meat? Or a perfectly spherical boilie?
 
Joe Winstanley said:
What does natural

I get your point, but a huge proportion of a barbels natural food source is not moving through the swim with the current though is it? Certainly not many of the inverts, crustaceans and molluscs which are anchored to the stones and rocks on the river bed.

I think we can hung up on what we perceive to look natural. I'm struggling to think of what in nature looks like a large lump of processed luncheon meat? Or a perfectly spherical boilie?
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I’m with Joe.

I would view a pop up as more natural in a river than a Stillwater.

And yes I have used them for barbel.
 
I think rigs are overrated and its much more about barbel density and other conditions that dictate when they feed and how vigorously. We've all caught barbel when its ridiculousy easy and we've all blanked, and on those blank days we probably all change bait, rigs, swims etc but we blank ! I'm not saying that a rig change would never work, far from it, but imo its overrated, fish location and a good quality bait far more important.
 
Cliff Turner said:
I think rigs are overrated and its much more about barbel density and other conditions that dictate when they feed and how vigorously. We've all caught barbel when its ridiculousy easy and we've all blanked, and on those blank days we probably all change bait, rigs, swims etc but we blank ! I'm not saying that a rig change would never work, far from it, but imo its overrated, fish location and a good quality bait far more important.
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I don't think anybody on here would argue against location being the most important factor, and that quality bait and baiting strategy aren't critically important.

But having found the fish, you'll never convince me that the way is bait is presented isn't hugely important. Especially with pressured fish.

Btw, I rarely change rigs/methods in a session. If I've decided on a tactic then I tend to to see it out for that session come rain or shine.
 
like i said before it’s like a big jigsaw puzzle you have to put together and the rig is the last piece but a very important piece it determines wether or not you finish your puzzle…. it’s no good having a quality bait and brilliant watercraft with lots of fish in front of you if your rig is not affective ….. i have watched at very close quarters on the upper lea barbel ejecting rigs

the bit i can’t understand is why do barbel anglers have this fear of change is it a generational thing?…..like i said earlier why do you use hair rigs .. if rigs have no bearing on the outcome why not use the rig you used before the hair….. to me a rig needs to have two qualities first of it needs to be able to fool fish into picking it up in the first place ( which is why most of us use a hair rig ) and secondly it needs to be anti eject so when it goes in it doesn’t come out .. the hair was capable of that for a while but fish on pressured stretches have certainly wised up to it.

when i was fishing the upper lea sometimes i would turn up and if i had a lot of fish in front of me i wouldn’t even cast out i would watch them for hours … i learnt so much watching those barbels behaviour and feeding patterns it really does give you another perspective
 
Terry Harman said:
the bit i can’t understand is why do barbel anglers have this fear of change is it a generational thing?
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There's a presumption there that (a proportion of) anglers are afraid to change, with the inference that these anglers are of a different generation to yourself. Maybe this is true in the case of some anglers, but it's a bit too much of a sweeping statement IMO.
You state the two purposes of a rig (fooling the fish in the first place, then having anti-eject qualities) and they are inarguable. But only an idiot would change their rig if it was working successfully. That is, first establish you have a problem, then, and only then, try to fix it.
If one is fishing highly pressured, relatively narrow stretches of crystal clear water, containing few barbel which are large and have wised up/are ultra cautious, then you know before you make your first cast that you're up against it. You know that you need to think on. Experiment.
But to experiment with blowbacks, KD rigs, Ronnies, Chods, Zigs, Combis, Multi-rigs, Claws, Hinged stiff ad infinitum when you're already hitting the vast majority of bites you get, equates to inventing problems you don't have. That is, only try to fix problems you know, or at least suspect, that you have.
I reckon that carpers are one of the (maybe) two most innovative and 'flexible' (open to change) anglers, the other group being match anglers. On many rivers match anglers depend on/need to catch barbel to win matches. Are they stuck in their ways, scared of change (especially those that are from a different generation from you)? Should they be experimenting with all those rigs listed above and more? No, they learn from each other and adapt to circumstances/conditions etc. That is, when they have a perceived problem they try to fix it ...not change 'for the sake of change'.
N.b.. as a bailiff I've extracted rigs consisting of 3oz in-line weights, lead core, and a bent hook. Yes, those type of rigs will catch carp, and yes, they will catch barbel, but just because they work on the angler's local carp puddle, do they really need them on the Teme?
 
Terry Simner said:
There's a presumption there that (a proportion of) anglers are afraid to change, with the inference that these anglers are of a different generation to yourself. Maybe this is true in the case of some anglers, but it's a bit too much of a sweeping statement IMO.
You state the two purposes of a rig (fooling the fish in the first place, then having anti-eject qualities) and they are inarguable. But only an idiot would change their rig if it was working successfully. That is, first establish you have a problem, then, and only then, try to fix it.
If one is fishing highly pressured, relatively narrow stretches of crystal clear water, containing few barbel which are large and have wised up/are ultra cautious, then you know before you make your first cast that you're up against it. You know that you need to think on. Experiment.
But to experiment with blowbacks, KD rigs, Ronnies, Chods, Zigs, Combis, Multi-rigs, Claws, Hinged stiff ad infinitum when you're already hitting the vast majority of bites you get, equates to inventing problems you don't have. That is, only try to fix problems you know, or at least suspect, that you have.
I reckon that carpers are one of the (maybe) two most innovative and 'flexible' (open to change) anglers, the other group being match anglers. On many rivers match anglers depend on/need to catch barbel to win matches. Are they stuck in their ways, scared of change (especially those that are from a different generation from you)? Should they be experimenting with all those rigs listed above and more? No, they learn from each other and adapt to circumstances/conditions etc. That is, when they have a perceived problem they try to fix it ...not change 'for the sake of change'.
N.b.. as a bailiff I've extracted rigs consisting of 3oz in-line weights, lead core, and a bent hook. Yes, those type of rigs will catch carp, and yes, they will catch barbel, but just because they work on the angler's local carp puddle, do they really need them on the Teme?
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"....when you're already hitting the vast majority of bites you get..."

Or so you think? Everytime I see underwater footage of barbel feeding I become more and convinced that I'm getting bites that never register at my end and that the hookbait is frequently getting blown out.

And experimenting with rigs and presentation doesn't necessarily equate to using death rigs. I think that's a lazy stereotype about carp angling. And I don't think anyone is advocating the use of zigs for barbel fishing! 🙂
 
terry the op was alluding to getting bangs and pulls but not converting them into hooked fish obviously if you are hooking everything that gives you an indication on the rod tip then there is no need to change anything
my point was if you are getting indications and not hooking fish then you might want to change things a little so therefore you might want to try a different rig presumably an anti eject rig…
i asked why carp anglers are innovative and forward thinking regarding rigs and barbel anglers in the main don’t seem to be it is something i struggle to understand…
i didn’t say it WAS a generational thing … i asked the question IS it a generational thing … being of the older generation myself i could understand why if that was the case …perhaps it’s just personal preference
this is probably a chalk and cheese discussion a bit like carbon rods v cane

my point is lots of people talk about big knocks and pull rounds on the rod tip and 9 times out of 10 they put it down to chub … but is it chub ? .. how do you know it’s chub ? … all i’m saying is if that’s happening to you tweak your rigs a bit ..i’m not talking about rigs that are over complicated … try putting a kicker on or change the length of the hair or try a blowback rig it’s just a matter of trying to convert every indication into a fish …. what’s so wrong with that ?
 
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