The next barbel river record

[Graham Young]

It looks like the auction house has the date wrong Ray, interesting how quickly the royalty fish grew to double figures without all the angler introduced bait that fish benefit? from these days, possibly an indication of the water quality.

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

It looks like the auction house has the date wrong Ray, interesting how quickly the royalty fish grew to double figures without all the angler introduced bait that fish benefit? from these days, possibly an indication of the water quality.

I would draw a link between population density and size, in all fish really. Think about the growth rates in carp, in sparsely populated gravel pits vs commercials. Over stocking a pond, Aquarium etc is a sure fire way to experience lower growth rates. Certainly water quality has a part to play, particularly dissolved oxygen content but there's other factors such as competition for food. I've been thinking more and more that a ballooning weight class is often a bad sign and indicates population decline. There does appear to be a trend that smaller fish become scarce, the remaining population grow fat and finally the stock level generally crashes. Anyone else feel this is a fair observation?

 

[Mark Swaby]

I may be wrong but was there not a slaughterhouse putting waste into the Royalty during those days.Like the slaughterhouse over in Ireland on the Blackwater ? in the 70's where the amount of 2lb Roach caught in the outflow was silly.Yes Stephen the trend you mention seems to be a recent thing in most southern waters.

 

[Ray Walton]

Fair observation Stephen in my opinion.
Mark....It is said there was a slaghterhouse that dumped offal at the bottom end near the town bridges.... and ...Knapp Mill/Parlour was a corn grinding mill at one time. Not sure of the dates though.

 

[Ray Walton]

Graham...I remember the Lea, Hampshire Avon and Kennet back in the 1970's and 80's to where there were loads of barbel between 3-9lb. A double was quite rare on all 3, including the Royalty. The anglers basic traditional baits were going in virtually every day on some stretches, but the barbel didn’t grow that much heavier and only fluctuated by ounces to 1lb+ especially on the Royalty. I would say the water quality and oxygen levels, judging by the Ranunculus weed present and golden gravel habitat were barbel perfect at the time on all 3 rivers. It all changed in 1989 onwards when the water companies were privatised and the companies became immune from prosecution when water quality standards were lowered by the NRA/EA for around 4-5 years to where the rivers were drastically downgraded by the NRA and the water and sewage companies and allowed to discharge high amounts of raw and partially treated sewage, chemicals etc without fear of prosecution. The UK gov gave billions of public money to the water companies to upgrade the sewage works infrastructure to where they would then be forced to discharge high quality non damaging sewage effluents. That never ever happened on most sewage works and although the water companies grabbed the money, the NRA/EA's lowered river quality and sewage standards to allow legal pollution, were never upgraded again. They got away with murder and still do i'm afraid.

 

[Graham Young]

Graham...I remember the Lea, Hampshire Avon and Kennet back in the 1970's and 80's to where there were loads of barbel between 3-9lb. A double was quite rare on all 3, including the Royalty. The anglers basic traditional baits were going in virtually every day on some stretches, but the barbel didn’t grow that much heavier and only fluctuated by ounces to 1lb+ especially on the Royalty. I would say the water quality and oxygen levels, judging by the Ranunculus weed present and golden gravel habitat were barbel perfect at the time on all 3 rivers. It all changed in 1989 onwards when the water companies were privatised and the companies became immune from prosecution when water quality standards were lowered by the NRA/EA for around 4-5 years to where the rivers were drastically downgraded by the NRA and the water and sewage companies and allowed to discharge high amounts of raw and partially treated sewage, chemicals etc without fear of prosecution. The UK gov gave billions of public money to the water companies to upgrade the sewage works infrastructure to where they would then be forced to discharge high quality non damaging sewage effluents. That never ever happened on most sewage works and although the water companies grabbed the money, the NRA/EA's lowered river quality and sewage standards to allow legal pollution, were never upgraded again. They got away with murder and still do i'm afraid.

Nothing changes Ray where water companies are concerned

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

In your opinion Ray what do you think is the cause of poor recruitment of many corse spieces of the recent past. I see you touching on falling water quality, despite claims it's improving by the EA on a regular basis. I swear somewhere in the back of my mind I remember that high phosphate levels have a deleterious effect on spawn. I recognise the algal types on the Stour often as high nutrient signs. What exactly do the EA measure in thier water quality assements? Do you feel siltation has a part to play in the destruction of suitable spawning grounds?

 

[Ray Walton]

Stephen...Personally speaking i would say, considering the EA have been re-stocking coarse fish in virtually every river in the UK, is that the eggs or young of some or most species are not surviving even if they do spawn. There are a combination of other things relating to pollution and predation etc, but heres one of the main reasons i think. Whist helping out on another issue regarding Powick Weir and Twaite Shad, i came across this little gem article and quote from an EA Calverton Fish Farm official which says it all. This is the very first time i have ever heard an EA official come clean and admit that something is very very wrong with our rivers regarding natural recruitment....even though we ourselves knew it all along for over 20+ years. Here is the relevant quote/article. See what you think! There is a link to the full article at the bottom and is worth a read.
....Here’s the Quote: "One of the first things Ian made clear was that this was 'farming' - everything relating to the complete development of the fish until release into the natural environment was carefully, meticulously controlled to ensure the best product. THE WATER HAD TO BE THE BEST -- RIVER OR STREAM WATER FOR REARING PURPOSES WILL NOT DO AS UNFORTUNATELY IT IS ALREADY POLLUTED WITH HUMAN AND ANIMAL HORMONES, WHICH SURVIVE SEWAGE TREATMENT, AND THESE GENETICALLY DISTORT THE YOUNG FISH."
http://www.calvertonvillage.com/fish-farm

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Stephen...Personally speaking i would say, considering the EA have been re-stocking coarse fish in virtually every river in the UK, is that the eggs or young of some or most species are not surviving even if they do spawn. There are a combination of other things relating to pollution and predation etc, but heres one of the main reasons i think. Whist helping out on another issue regarding Powick Weir and Twaite Shad, i came across this little gem article and quote from an EA Calverton Fish Farm official which says it all. This is the very first time i have ever heard an EA official come clean and admit that something is very very wrong with our rivers regarding natural recruitment....even though we ourselves knew it all along for over 20+ years. Here is the relevant quote/article. See what you think! There is a link to the full article at the bottom and is worth a read.
....Here’s the Quote: "One of the first things Ian made clear was that this was 'farming' - everything relating to the complete development of the fish until release into the natural environment was carefully, meticulously controlled to ensure the best product. THE WATER HAD TO BE THE BEST -- RIVER OR STREAM WATER FOR REARING PURPOSES WILL NOT DO AS UNFORTUNATELY IT IS ALREADY POLLUTED WITH HUMAN AND ANIMAL HORMONES, WHICH SURVIVE SEWAGE TREATMENT, AND THESE GENETICALLY DISTORT THE YOUNG FISH."
http://www.calvertonvillage.com/fish-farm

Cheers Ray il read that at my leisure, it has been my feeling that lack of suitable spawning grounds, fry bays and pollution in the form of farm land run off particularly from intensive farming both arable and pastoral. Something is definitely wrong at the foundation although I cannot prove it.

 

[Ray Walton]

I see your point and it is probably the combination of factors including your beliefs above. As you might know, the sex change in fish especially Roach, was known about in the 1960's in Thames Water studies but kept well quiet and not public Knowledge. Later in 1990-1 or thereabouts, it was proved again beyond doubt with roach and trout placed outside sewage works on the River Lea and other more northern rivers, by scientists from Brunel University in London. If the hormones/endocrine disruptors survive the sewage treatment process and they are then discharged into our rivers, then the question should be asked if they then survive the drinking water treatment process which is the same abstracted river water destined for human consumption and other things. When silt has settled on the golden gravels, I have often seen barbel clear/brush the silt away and make clean patches during the spawning rituals. I suppose it’s whether the silt comes back soon after they have laid the eggs to where they will be covered, suffocated and starved of vital oxygen. I noted that they often look for cleaner areas to spawn and don't always spawn in the same place each year. Like you say, fry bays or similar sanctuary, weed and under bank cover are vital elements to their survival. As on the Hampshire Avon up until 2009/10, the NRA and EA completely destroyed the Ranunculus in river weed cover by mass mechanical reciprocal blade weed cutting in the spawning season, summer and autumn 3 times a year for a continuous 50+ years, trashing spawning grounds for all species including salmon and barbel plus overturning wildfowl nests with eggs and young. I can remember the fish fry being washed downstream as they could not hold station in the increased flow rate after the weed and their home sanctuary had been slaughtered by the EA as the boats went thru. Now that EA destructive practice still goes on other UK rivers especially on the Kentish Stour, killing virtually all lifeforms including the food for fish (macro inverts) and essential habitat that are in the EA cutters path. The EA play a big part in river habitat destruction and the decline of fish stocks nationwide and it doesn’t bother them. So that’s another reason to add to the list.

 

[Graham Elliott]

Ray.
As I have mentioned many times on here.

The roach survey was carried out on the River Loddon. This proved that fish were becoming asexual.

At Wargrave the sewerage plant has never been capable of managing the water volume during floods. They discharged everthing into the river. Tampons etc included.

This just downstream of The Pats /Loddon and half mile entry of the combined entry into the Thames.

I reported these discharges to the EA through the Loddon consultative. To my knowledge nothing has changed.

IMO the lack of spawning grounds is a red herring in most cases, certainly relating to the Loddon. The problem is lack of hormone stripping.

Some of the talk of thriving rivers is simply massive restocking levels in most cases or the initial surge after this as seen on the Severn and Wye.
For example more than 100,000 barbel have been put onto the Trent in the past 15 years.
The Lea has also been massively stocked I understand.

Along with other issues, for example predation, and phosphate run off the future is simply stock fish.

 

[Ray Walton]

Good post Graham...I think the EA will never address the root cause of river fish population declines and problems with natural recruitment, just as long as they have Calverton Fish Farm and other contacts to re-stock everywhere with 6"inch fish or smaller of all species. They don't fret or care about anglers concerns regarding pollution, endocrine disruptors or their own EA riverine habitat destruction every year.

 

[Neil Smart]

Good post Graham...I think the EA will never address the root cause of river fish population declines and problems with natural recruitment, just as long as they have Calverton Fish Farm and other contacts to re-stock everywhere with 6"inch fish or smaller of all species. They don't fret or care about anglers concerns regarding pollution, endocrine disruptors or their own EA riverine habitat destruction every year.

Blimey Ray cheer up

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Thankfully the way the conversion has gone I no longer need to write an essay on the O subject. I'd like to point out that I'm not more qualified than anyone else here and my thoughts and feels are based on my observations. The growing population of these wet cats is not dependant on any one spieces of fish or even fish full stop, allowing them to grow in number irrespective of falling fish stock. We don't know how many there are and they do travel a long way, I believe many of them are double counts. I admit I've seen groups in the past. A dog otter roams for miles and miles and they move bloody fast. We don't know what a natural population level is due to pressures on them in the recent past. Esp with suppressed fish stock. It's uncharted territory.
The decline of fish stocks isn't Tarkas fault, they aren't solely or even mostly to blame imo but they are a cherry on top. The decline began long before the recent explosion of them. Rivers holding low numbers of large fish with poor numbers of sub adult fish were on a knife edge anyway, the otter just took the cherry off the top. I use a cake deliberately. Whilst they will take the easiest target, which used to be the now suffering Eel they will take what they can get because having watched them they aren't very proficient at catching large mobile fish in open water. Their chasing and nipping must cause additional stress though even if they cannot actually catch what they are chasing. The population simply isn't there to support them sustainably. Our rivers aren't doing nearly as well as the EA like to point out and we know that. To over simplify the example imagine half the forest was paved over and deer numbers crashed, the wolves then picked off what was left. The temptation to say the wolf was to blame is high but the truth is it was the habitat destruction that did the damage the wolf is just as much a victim long term.

The solution. Otter cull to allow stocks to recover, well they aren't successfully breeding so that won't work. Plus the fuel that would pour on the fire for anti angling would be crazy. Think a badger cull gets them excited? Try shooting the poster boy. We could increase mass stocking of farmed fish to inflate population, expensive and a short term repair that ignores the root. Or lastly we research and repair the root cause, we monitor population o and if the research supports it we adjust through appropriate measures that population until the situation finds balance. I feel and honestly have no proof this could take 50-100 years.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Thankfully the way the conversion has gone I no longer need to write an essay on the O subject. I'd like to point out that I'm not more qualified than anyone else here and my thoughts and feels are based on my observations. The growing population of these wet cats is not dependant on any one spieces of fish or even fish full stop, allowing them to grow in number irrespective of falling fish stock. We don't know how many there are and they do travel a long way, I believe many of them are double counts. I admit I've seen groups in the past. A dog otter roams for miles and miles and they move bloody fast. We don't know what a natural population level is due to pressures on them in the recent past. Esp with suppressed fish stock. It's uncharted territory.
The decline of fish stocks isn't Tarkas fault, they aren't solely or even mostly to blame imo but they are a cherry on top. The decline began long before the recent explosion of them. Rivers holding low numbers of large fish with poor numbers of sub adult fish were on a knife edge anyway, the otter just took the cherry off the top. I use a cake deliberately. Whilst they will take the easiest target, which used to be the now suffering Eel they will take what they can get because having watched them they aren't very proficient at catching large mobile fish in open water. Their chasing and nipping must cause additional stress though even if they cannot actually catch what they are chasing. The population simply isn't there to support them sustainably. Our rivers aren't doing nearly as well as the EA like to point out and we know that. To over simplify the example imagine half the forest was paved over and deer numbers crashed, the wolves then picked off what was left. The temptation to say the wolf was to blame is high but the truth is it was the habitat destruction that did the damage the wolf is just as much a victim long term.

The solution. Otter cull to allow stocks to recover, well they aren't successfully breeding so that won't work. Plus the fuel that would pour on the fire for anti angling would be crazy. Think a badger cull gets them excited? Try shooting the poster boy. We could increase mass stocking of farmed fish to inflate population, expensive and a short term repair that ignores the root. Or lastly we research and repair the root cause, we monitor population o and if the research supports it we adjust through appropriate measures that population until the situation finds balance. I feel and honestly have no proof this could take 50-100 years.

Good essay on the Otter, Stephen

Seriously, some very good points made. I'm not sure about the 50-100 years though, that could be optimistic. There needs to be the will at the right level (EA) to change and that seems to be seriously lacking judging by Rays comments about the Avon. It probably all comes down eventually to the water companies need(?) for ever increasing profits and the effect on the environment taking a very minor role. I don't know myself, but some of you may know, do the water companies have their own "people" infiltrated into the EA?

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Good essay on the Otter, Stephen

Seriously, some very good points made. I'm not sure about the 50-100 years though, that could be optimistic. There needs to be the will at the right level (EA) to change and that seems to be seriously lacking judging by Rays comments about the Avon. It probably all comes down eventually to the water companies need(?) for ever increasing profits and the effect on the environment taking a very minor role. I don't know myself, but some of you may know, do the water companies have their own "people" infiltrated into the EA?

Your right 50-100 years is nothing in nature, 1000 years is merely a blink of an eye. However it's surprising how quickly given the chance nature bounces back. Look at the Red Kite and Raven, the Kites in particular have done so well.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Your right 50-100 years is nothing in nature, 1000 years is merely a blink of an eye. However it's surprising how quickly given the chance nature bounces back. Look at the Red Kite and Raven, the Kites in particular have done so well.

They have indeed Stephen, although the raven was always fairly common where I grew up in West Wales

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Spread as far as here now.

 

[Chris Jones]

Could a gravel pit fish grow big enough to take the record? there must be some in gravel pits that are left overs from floods in rivers adjacent to the pits.

Quite a few years ago, a gravel pit near the Swale threw up a barbel that exceeded the weight of the then river Swale record.

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I've no idea which river will produce the next national record, though the Nene might be a good bet. However, I very much doubt it'll come from a river that rises, or has major tributaries which rise, in a proper upland areas.

 

[Ray Walton]

Good essay on the Otter, Stephen

Seriously, some very good points made. I'm not sure about the 50-100 years though, that could be optimistic. There needs to be the will at the right level (EA) to change and that seems to be seriously lacking judging by Rays comments about the Avon. It probably all comes down eventually to the water companies need(?) for ever increasing profits and the effect on the environment taking a very minor role. I don't know myself, but some of you may know, do the water companies have their own "people" infiltrated into the EA?

Not quite sure nowadays Alex...but it was like as you say back in the 80's/90's in my opinion. Today, i would say that the government relays the shots to the EA on what they can and can't do regarding water and sewage companies.. and it has always been my belief that the EA are pro-water companies above all else, basically letting them get away with environmental murder..The EA now let the water and sewage companies monitor themselves. It was always well known by anglers that the NRA/EA were always 'hand in hand' when it came to water quality, pollution incidents etc, where they always tended to protect each other.