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The next barbel river record

Next UK barbel record river?

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    139
Stephen Crowhurst said:
There's really no point it's a dead dog. It's not that I'm convinced they have had little impact, more that thier impact is over stated by some. My observations almost exclusively on the Dorset Stour admittedly, is that they seem to work very hard to catch very little, taking mostly silvers. Thier presence is longer standing than many realise and I've only seen one fish I'd suspect was killed by an otter. The way some wang on you'd expect to see the banks littered with half eaten carcasses.

The way I see it there's not much in the facts camp;
The number of individuals is unknown. The methods used to measure population such as spraint samples appears to have poor record.
The diet of them is debatable. The historical diet is unlikely what they are eating, certainly one study suggested they were eating minnows.
Frequent sightings of what is a crepuscular animal in full daylight to me suggests poor food availability driving them to hunt longer and take bigger risks.

I honestly think that the dwindling numbers of many corse fish are a reflection of environmental pressures at large and whilst a wet cat won't help I do not think they are the driving force. It's a long winded emotional and subjective topic with few solid answers and really that's all there is to say. I can't really be bothered to expand beyond this and don't wish to drag things off topic.
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Fair enough, probably end up going round in circles.

And yes that's a great post by Lloyd.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
There's really no point it's a dead dog. It's not that I'm convinced they have had little impact, more that thier impact is over stated by some. My observations almost exclusively on the Dorset Stour admittedly, is that they seem to work very hard to catch very little, taking mostly silvers. Thier presence is longer standing than many realise and I've only seen one fish I'd suspect was killed by an otter. The way some wang on you'd expect to see the banks littered with half eaten carcasses.

The way I see it there's not much in the facts camp;
The number of individuals is unknown. The methods used to measure population such as spraint samples appears to have poor record.
The diet of them is debatable. The historical diet is unlikely what they are eating, certainly one study suggested they were eating minnows.
Frequent sightings of what is a crepuscular animal in full daylight to me suggests poor food availability driving them to hunt longer and take bigger risks.

I honestly think that the dwindling numbers of many corse fish are a reflection of environmental pressures at large and whilst a wet cat won't help I do not think they are the driving force. It's a long winded emotional and subjective topic with few solid answers and really that's all there is to say. I can't really be bothered to expand beyond this and don't wish to drag things off topic.
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Not sure John Everard would agree with you Stephen. He did some in depth interviews with Stewart Moss on the upper Thames in CAT, back in 2012, I still have the magazine. He was a very experienced Thames angler of many years and one of the most successful Thames barbel anglers ever. He put the demise of the barbel population firmly at the door of the otter.
 
Alex Gowney said:
Not sure John Everard would agree with you Stephen. He did some in depth interviews with Stewart Moss on the upper Thames in CAT, back in 2012, I still have the magazine. He was a very experienced Thames angler of many years and one of the most successful Thames barbel anglers ever. He put the demise of the barbel population firmly at the door of the otter.
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As I said I really do not wish to discuss the matter and further derail someone else's thread with the dreaded O topic, so let's not do that. The topic has been flogged to death. I'm not aware of the article or the chap concerned, its credibility or accuracy, is it based on science fact or simply anacdotal speculation (please don't answer that it's rhetorical) Therefore cannot comment on it or it's content. Im sorry if that sounds grumpy but as I say it's been done to death and opening that can of worms will ruin an otherwise perfectly good thread.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
As I said I really do not wish to discuss the matter and further derail someone else's thread with the dreaded O topic, so let's not do that. The topic has been flogged to death. I'm not aware of the article or the chap concerned, its credibility or accuracy, is it based on science fact or simply anacdotal speculation (please don't answer that it's rhetorical) Therefore cannot comment on it or it's content. Im sorry if that sounds grumpy but as I say it's been done to death and opening that can of worms will ruin an otherwise perfectly good thread.
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OK Stephen, I will not address any other otter comments to you, but that's not to say I won't make them:)

Bit surprised you haven't heard of John Everard though?
 
If the 'otter on the bank' aint mentioned then it just stays as the 'elephant in the room' IMHO.
I've very little doubt that otters have, and are, having a highly negative effect on barbel numbers in general....and the number of large, more lumbering, specimens in particular.
 
Terry Simner said:
If the 'otter on the bank' aint mentioned then it just stays as the 'elephant in the room' IMHO.
I've very little doubt that otters have, and are, having a highly negative effect on barbel numbers in general....and the number of large, more lumbering, specimens in particular.
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Maybe why you blank on the Teme Chris
 
Having fished the Dorset Stour for over 30 years Stephen you're comments are way of the mark.
With over 35 years of fishing the Hampshire Avon and Kennet also, let me assure you that Otters do much more harm to all fish that you 'assume' or are led to believe!
Your local Throop fishery is a shadow of its former self!
 
John McGough said:
Having fished the Dorset Stour for over 30 years Stephen you're comments are way of the mark.
With over 35 years of fishing the Hampshire Avon and Kennet also, let me assure you that Otters do much more harm to all fish that you 'assume' or are led to believe!
Your local Throop fishery is a shadow of its former self!
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As an aside John, it was 30 years last September that I first saw a cormorant swallow a nice little barbel on Throop, after it had just eaten an eel! I was trying to imagine how many have gone the same way since.
Out of interest I was looking at EA rod and line rules for the regions trying to find out more about local dates and methods for migratory fish. I was naively surprised to note that an angler can take 15 barbel below 20cm per day under ' coarse fish removal " unless fishery rules state otherwise.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...7947/Rod_and_line_fishing_rules_july_2015.pdf

Given I've got Muscliff downstream and Longham upstream, both free stretches, it made me think of all the negative possibilities.

I agree that there is little doubt that otters have accentuated the problem of our depleted barbel stocks, although I don't think they are the soul cause, I've yet to witness a local otter kill but do know one or two level-headed anglers who have.
What has become an indisputable fact however, is the number of clubs who are dropping river fisheries in order to fund still water otter fences.
Depressing.

Ps Alex, .. I remember that article well.
 
John McGough said:
Having fished the Dorset Stour for over 30 years Stephen you're comments are way of the mark.
With over 35 years of fishing the Hampshire Avon and Kennet also, let me assure you that Otters do much more harm to all fish that you 'assume' or are led to believe!
Your local Throop fishery is a shadow of its former self!
Click to expand...

Seeing as I haven't actually expressed my opinion on the subject in any length I dont see how you can draw that conclusion John.
I really didn't wish this to be one the thread, soon as anyone says Otter it gets silly. Seeing a as we have arrived here though I will share my thoughts. Just not at 20 past midnight when I've got to be in Plymouth by 8am.
 
Hi men ,

Stephen , perhaps your right , and we can steer the thread away from the otter posts that we have had a few of :D , and back on subject ;).

What about the lakes linked to rivers , are they going to be the havens to throw up a big fish ?. Its far removed from the small river / big fish we have seen in the past , but the lack of flow , pressure , and available food may suit them ?.


Hatter
 
Rickmansworth Aquadrome produced a 13lb 8 oz barbel a few years ago.I suspect it was caught in the river 15 yds away and put in the lake by a selfish carp angler as a big fish.The lad that caught it returned it to the river.It was not an overly fat fish when caught and lots of boilies go into the lake.To produce a record takes some severe artificial weight gain on a natural frame.Smaller stillwaters(where you could potentially feed up an individual fish) do not seem to be good for barbel,they tend to die off in the summer heatwaves( a reported issue). The record for 50 years was around 14lb then the sudden increase up to 21lb. Most of the recent records/massive fish are Calverton stocked fish.So any water with Calverton stocked fish has the potential to do the record.I also suspect these bigger fish are sterile.
 
Quite interesting that Mark. When you go back a bit further like the 17th-19th century you will find that there were barbel reported in the Trent to 16+, Lea 18+, Thames 23 and Kennet 18+. Although the later 20th century 14.6 Hampshire Avon joint British Record stood for around 50 years, there were heavier barbel caught between 16-17lb in the same years quite frequently from the Avon and generally in the close season, which is not a lot of difference to today when we now realise that some big barbel with potential can fluctuate 3-4lb in weight from early season to the close season. No doubt a lot of the Avon 14's were the same as the 16-17's, but a lot of anglers didn't realise it or recognise the fish, and i suppose that still goes for today. Thirty odd years ago, the Medway started to throw up longer and heavier barbel to 16+, probably because the pioneering HNV carp baits used filled them out as they do in carp fishing and HNV then began to be used on other rivers which raised the bar in a similar way. The Wensum was next to produce 16+ fish then the Gt Ouse. The GT ouse record barbel were generally pretty average weight double figure barbel before the HNV baits were piled in, to where the same fish then filled out and built in stature and weight.
 
Ray, never thought that the Avon close season Salmon angler caught Barbel could be the same fish as the 14's caught in season but it makes sense.Those fish would also be heavier due to spawn.Were not those Medway fish off of the radar like Adams mill fish during the growing period of their life.Do you also think plenty of guesstimating went on back in the last century ,i would have thought at least one of those would have been mounted/glass cased somewhere(boy that would be a find).Last year i found a forgotten 50lb salmon in a boiler room at an old Hotel that had been hidden there for 60 plus years,so there might be a monster barbel somewhere.
 
Mark Swaby said:
Ray, never thought that the Avon close season Salmon angler caught Barbel could be the same fish as the 14's caught in season but it makes sense.Those fish would also be heavier due to spawn.Were not those Medway fish off of the radar like Adams mill fish during the growing period of their life.Do you also think plenty of guesstimating went on back in the last century ,i would have thought at least one of those would have been mounted/glass cased somewhere(boy that would be a find).Last year i found a forgotten 50lb salmon in a boiler room at an old Hotel that had been hidden there for 60 plus years,so there might be a monster barbel somewhere.
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Possibly, but I doubt that those that could afford to mount a capture, might think any Barbel would not be worthy.
 
Mark...The Medway barbel were on the radar long before they were fattened up to become record fish. A few of them were very long fish at the time but just low doubles. Pretty much the same with the Ouse fish.
Graham...Interesting that the first barbel is marked as a Royalty barbel. It is well documented that they were transported from the Thames down to the Dorset and stocked at Iford Bidge on the Dorset Stour in 1896. Some must have travelled downstream to the Christchurch Quay/Claypool and Avon confluence and up into the Royalty, but i thought it was much later that they did that as there is very little info that they were present in the Royalty until well into the 1900's. As you know, loads of barbel and especially chub were deliberately killed and set up from that time right thru to the 1960's i think. It was the norm and accepted practice for some of those anglers. Pretty sure it somewhat killed off the Royalty big barbel and chub gene pool back then in the 1930's onwards.
 
It is very early Ray, the date is from the auction house bumph this is it below

J. COOPER & SONS BARBEL mounted amongst reeds, bears interior taxidermists paper label, Caught July 9th 1897 Royalty Fishery - River Avon by A.F. Grant member of Hampshire Angling Society, weight 5lbs 10ozs, in bow fronted display case with gold line detail, 38 x 83cm


What is interesting looking through the many cased barbel photographs is that the barbel of old was a more classic barbel shaped fish than the modern pellet/HNV fed fish, as the dimensions of the case is given in some cases it should be possible with a bit of measuring and maths to get a pretty good idea of how long the cased fish are.


Came across this while browsing, apparently the largest pair of barbel ever set up 14lbs 3oz and 14lbs both royalty fish caught in March 1934


jpg images
 
It seems there is date change to when i last looked and was not aware off, regarding when they were stocked into the Dorset Stour at Iford Bridge...It is now 1899.
Interesting...words taken from an old Peter Wheat article which makes the stuffed fish/date a bit questionable.
Quote: "As far as I can tell the very first Barbel caught from the Royalty weighed 6lbs and was taken in 1911, in a mixed catch made by four Nottinghamshire anglers. The men concerned were W Murfin, H E Birks, J Bailey (a son of William Bailey the celebrated Trent Barbel angler and author of the anglers instructor) and the legendary F.W.K.Wallis. Which one of the party actually caught the Barbel is not known, but the fish certainly caused a big stir at the time because it was the first indication that Barbel had moved up river into the Avon.
Eighteen years later the first doubles were reported. Two 13 pounders caught fairly and a 14 pound 4oz specimen foul-hooked by the then head keeper M. W. Hayter while Salmon fishing."
 
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