Neil Smart
Senior Member
Anyone know why Barbel in France seem to co.exist along side Otter?
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Teme Study
- Thread starter Lawrence Breakspear
- Start date
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
In Teme/Arrow/Kennet/BAvon sized rivers Neil?
One family of otters could easily (IMO) wipe out a mile of narrow river of (esp the larger, slower) barbel in a year or so.
Neil Smart
Senior Member
I don't know Terry what the facts are in France, but it might be worthwhile delving into. I am not championing the Otter, but I have this feeling that all this decline in Barbel numbers should not be attributed to just the Otter, or predation come to that. Let's be honest we don't see the evidence of fish kill do we? And that my friend is quite possibly the biggest flaw the Otter blamers have. If at least say 100 Barbel were being killed every season on the Teme, I am sure there would be the evidence...however I do see Barbel belly up through you know why.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
Otters do mass kill.
Just look at some of the garden ponds with multiple kills. They do have feeding frenzy times and will happily seek out the oil
richest part of fish.
And a family of Otters prior to the adults pushing youngsters away, could affect many miles of river.
Just look at some of the garden ponds with multiple kills. They do have feeding frenzy times and will happily seek out the oil
richest part of fish.
And a family of Otters prior to the adults pushing youngsters away, could affect many miles of river.
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
Yep, 'fox in the henhouse'. My neighbour lost a few thousand quids worth..in one single night (otter footprints found).
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
I agree with you that otters are not likely to be the sole cause Neil, but otters turning up in numbers as/when they did appear tantamount to a 'smoking gun'.
Lawrence Breakspear
Senior Member
Otters dont have to kill many barbel to have the most severe profound effects on a barbel population on a river, as I said earlier on the thread, the ratio between male and female barbel is about 7 to 1, on some rivers its as high as 10 to 1, the larger barbel 10 pound plus are invariably female and can produce 150 thousand plus eggs per year, so if a small river has a barbel population of 500 barbel spread over 5 miles of river, approximately 30 to 50 could be females, and on the basis that the male barbel life spans are about 5 to 7 years, whereas females can live to 20 years plus as nature demands to maintain the species, it could take less than two years to wipe out all the female bigger fish, on the basis they are bigger and slower and easier to catch, I suppose, somebody spoke earlier of the mathematics of this situation, it doesnt take a mathematician to see how the population of barbel can quickly decline or disappear altogether, again John Baileys personal accounts with regard to the Wensum, where barbel are targeted by Cormorants and Gooseanders in their early years and the targeted by the Otter as they get bigger, its a self fulfilling prophecy for any river, but I reiterate that the loss of a 10 pound plus barbel is more damaging, because the potential of losing one 10 pound barbel ultimately could to equate to a loss of 2 million eggs over its life time.....the figures become mind blowing the more you think about it, and once the females have all gone and the smaller males naturally die off.....thats it, end of, as many rivers are showing....
Neil Smart
Senior Member
Yes I know of all these killings, and I despair too, but I cannot think of anytime in the future that we as anglers can influence the culling of Otters, let's face it the Otter is indigenous whereas the Barbel was introduced from the Eastern Rivers. The reintroduction of the Otter is lauded as a huge success story by the public. It hurts it really does, when I see so many Rivers now devoid of Barbel it reduces me to tears, but that feeling is not shared beyond those that fish for them.
The reintroduction of the Beaver is now growing into a real force, this is the way the future, unless these species prove a hazard to the farming community I feel we have to accept our lot, and just try and protect what we have and hold.
Something us wrong, when I look into the Teme I see little life, and if the Otter is responsible for that I will be very surprised, it is so different to just a few years back, as is the Arrow, it seems to me that it could be a far less obvious suspect than the Otter.
Derek Funcks
Senior Member & Supporter
Neil, maybe, as Lawrence has said above, if there are no females to lay the eggs, then sadly, there will be no fry.
Neil Smart
Senior Member
I think it would be unlikely that these rivers being devoid of natural life can be attributed to the actions of the Otter Derek. By life not just fry and adult fish but insect larvae, and the nornal vegetation one would normally see, which possibly points to chemical pollution rather than mass predation.Neil, maybe, as Lawrence has said above, if there are no females to lay the eggs, then sadly, there will be no fry.
What percentage of fish kill can be attributed to the Otter , I don't know, neither do the experts, but I fear there is something as sinister afoot and the detail has been kept from the public. Do not underestimate the reasons for convincing the public our rivers are as clean as they say.
Craig Wood
Senior Member
Hi Neil ,
I believe the carcass is taken away by foxes or badgers. I was reading a article about this , whereas badgers and foxes were seen regularly patrolling rivers.
Craig Wood
Senior Member
Hi Mike , Well firstly I hope that scenario continues on the Yorkshire Ouse , unfortunately many Rivers have seen their Barbel stocks diminish , once Otters claim that area as their territory. No coincidence Mike.
Neil Smart
Senior Member
Possibly Craig, but from what I see is that carcasses just don't vanish down some hole in the ground, they are picked at for days, it's how flies actually earn their living
, can you imagine the mess if Badgers or Fox brought that stuff home? Besides Badger and Fox suckle their young so there is no real incentive to carry the carcass away, they would normally scavenge what they can on site, and leave the rest. Apologies if I am doubting your information, perhaps you could point me to the article. ?
Craig Wood
Senior Member
Possibly Craig, but from what I see is that carcasses just don't vanish down some hole in the ground, they are picked at for days, it's how flies actually earn their living
Hi Neil ,
I think I read the Article on the PAG website. I think its fair to say that the Otter has made a serious impact on Adult Barbel stocks , as for future stocks of young Barbel , then of course there are other factors such as pollution. But my main point is about the destruction caused by Otters to Adult Barbel , particularly the bigger female spawn carriers . I honestly have no other explanation as to why once healthy Adult Barbel stocks have disappeared . I also take on board other opinions as im far from being a expert , the only evidence I have , is what ive seen unfold in front of my eyes and in most cases more of what I cant see anymore..
Mike Hodgkiss
Senior Member
Hello Craig . I don't doubt for a moment that Barbel populations do decrease , often dramatically on some rivers when Otters appear , indeed I have seen this happen on stretches of the river Nidd . One stretch that I am thinking off had a large head of barbel , then Otters began to appear and over time the Barbel and chub became much harder to catch and in the end I gave up on the stretch as the bigger fish population seemed to have disappeared . This said I did not see a single Barbel or Chub carcass , piles of scales , nothing . I have no doubt the Otter
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Craig Wood
Senior Member
I have asked this question before Neil , which I think is a good question. It comes down to pollution levels being controlled , unlike this country , who are now facing paying fines to the EU , because we have failed to meet the required standards for many years. The EU even extended the time period for the UK to meet the required standards and surprise , surprise , we failed to achieve this.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
Wirh any introduction or re introduction of new species you will always get a surge in numbers.
Think Severn barbel situation.
But many of the otters released were hand reared or cared for in groups.
The natural competitive nature and fear of humans probably lessened.
Just a thought.
Think Severn barbel situation.
But many of the otters released were hand reared or cared for in groups.
The natural competitive nature and fear of humans probably lessened.
Just a thought.
Graham Young
Senior Member
If before the reintroduction of otter barbel were surviving quite well and breeding in rivers where now post the reintroductions they are not what has changed in those rivers?
Stretches of small rivers that previously held populations of barbel of varying sizes are now devoid of barbel since the sighting of otter on those stretches, nothing as far as I know has changed other than otter appearing on the river, coincidence? I don't think it is.
Stretches of small rivers that previously held populations of barbel of varying sizes are now devoid of barbel since the sighting of otter on those stretches, nothing as far as I know has changed other than otter appearing on the river, coincidence? I don't think it is.
Jason Bean
Senior Member
I would say a lot has changed in rivers within the last 20 years, particularly in the south east.
Neil Smart
Senior Member
Yes I think that is a very valid point, from nothing to an introduction en mass has had devastating consequences, and as you say the hand reared element sure;y is a factor. As we know over centuries nature adapts and things level out with the correct numbers of prey vs hunters. It was pretty obvious to all and sundry to have an apex predator thrown into the mix there would be some carnage, they must have know that but thought perhaps it was worth it.?