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Teme Study

Hi men,

I am a bit because nothing can or will happen . To think otters are not having an impact on barbel fishing is very very nieve , and thoughtless for those whos fishing has been so badly effected.

Calling for bans / culls is a waste of oxygen, and word space on threads , never going to change .

Only cure ?, move around rivers catching what you can while you can before moving to another .

I was more interested with how the felling of trees on the BS stretch ended up as an experiment to promote weed groth ?

Hatter
 
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The BS has now given up its stretch on the Teme at Bransford, as have many other clubs, due to the decline in the barbel population and other fish species, whilst the BS had the stretch it invested many thousands of pounds in habitat reconstruction on the river at Bransford and frankly it didnt make apeth of difference to the barbel numbers, when powick weir is breached by high river levels barbel do go up the Teme from the lower Severn as they always have, but nothing like the numbers they once did, and frankly those that do soon become victims of predation.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
The BS has now given up its stretch on the Teme at Bransford, as have many other clubs, due to the decline in the barbel population and other fish species, whilst the BS had the stretch it invested many thousands of pounds in habitat reconstruction on the river at Bransford and frankly it didnt make apeth of difference to the barbel numbers, when powick weir is breached by high river levels barbel do go up the Teme from the lower Severn as they always have, but nothing like the numbers they once did, and frankly those that do soon become victims of predation.
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With respect Lol that is pure speculation that those Barbel that come up the Teme fall victim to predation. Don't you think that such a mass kill would be evident?
 
Well Neil it is speculative, you are right but its odd that even though barbel do still go up the Teme from the Severn ( electro tagging has proven this) they soon disappear off the scale and numbers dont improve, so at best its an assumption that they fall victim of predators, but this assumption is based on fact.
 
The other thing Neil, i believe the numbers running up the Teme are much lower than previous times, due to the decline in barbel numbers on the lower Severn...
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I believe the first thing we as anglers have to do is convince those who have the ability to make changes, is that Otter populations need some sort of management or control in some locations, this is the first step in the non lethal control model. We as river anglers need a mechanism and process where and when an Otter or Otters are being problematic action can be taken, such as being taken into permanent captivity, or injured or orphaned Otters in certain locations are not reintroduced once taken in, research into some sort of sterilisation programme of dog otters in certain geographical locations, limitation of human interference into the Otters life cycle such as the building of Otter holts on an unregulated scale, the study of the use of repellents where otters are discouraged. We wouldn't have to wait long to see the positive effects of non lethal control, otters haven't got very long life spans anyway, dog otters are murderous creatures against their own kind, so they themselves could be part of the management process, especially if they lose the ability to sire pups themselves. Legislation needs to be changed so it would make it unlawful for otters to be surreptitiously released by Otter sanctuaries. There are lots of things we can do, there are many things by those that supposed to represent us can do, what we as river anglers mustn't do is nothing. Because the the petition was raised and was signed by 12,000 plus anglers, the Otter debate and discussion as increased ten fold, we have seen articles in the national press, social media debate, the radio, I even managed to get David Gregory Kumar the reporter of central television to acknowledge the adverse effects of otters on fish populations, whilst reporting on Otters coming back to the Midlands canals on his TV programme, with the petition being dismissed by some as a failure or the lacking of clarity, its is seen by those that signed it and those that secretly supported it as the catalyst for change for the situation we find ourselves in. The next step is to deliver the Petition to Downing street as is our right...
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Who do you think should "pick up the bill" for your suggestions
 
If otters are not responsible for the huge reduction in barbel numbers on the Teme, then something else introduced to virtually every small river in England at roughly the same time must be responsible. Seriously ? The otter's bang to rights. They aren't responsible for the whole host other issues facing our rivers, but they are responsible for the decimation of adult barbel stocks.
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
If otters are not responsible for the huge reduction in barbel numbers on the Teme, then something else introduced to virtually every small river in England at roughly the same time must be responsible. Seriously ? The otter's bang to rights. They aren't responsible for the whole host other issues facing our rivers, but they are responsible for the decimation of adult barbel stocks.
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Bang on Nick...
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
If otters are not responsible for the huge reduction in barbel numbers on the Teme, then something else introduced to virtually every small river in England at roughly the same time must be responsible. Seriously ? The otter's bang to rights. They aren't responsible for the whole host other issues facing our rivers, but they are responsible for the decimation of adult barbel stocks.
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According to the Angling Trust: '117 captive-bred otters between 1983 and 1999, mostly on East Anglian rivers, but with some elsewhere. Their last release was of 17 otters on the upper Thames catchment over a six-month period in 1999. The Vincent Wildlife Trust released a further 49 rehabilitated animals (i.e. orphaned and injured wild otters kept in captivity until fit for release) between 1990 and 1996, many of these as part of a release programme in Yorkshire'

Neonicotinoids first became commercially available in the UK in the late 90's. Between 2008 and 2013 the area of land regularly receiving applications of neonics effectively doubled, with neonics being applied to approximately 35% of the arable land in the UK, mainly oilseed rape and winter wheat, by 2013. Neonics are water soluble and therefore readily leach into watercourses, to date no long-term systematic study has been carried out to determine their impact on freshwater ecology, but work carried out thus far indicates their impact is devastating.

Based on soil types and land use, (e.g. areas of intensive arable farmland with soils more prone to leaching) barbel rivers that I would expect to be most effected by neonics include the Ouse, Wensum, Kennet, Bristol Avon, Hamps Avon.

Rivers with a higher proportion of pasture on soils with a higher clay content (e.g. less leachable) that I would expect to less likely to be effected include the Trent and the Wye.

Not sure about the Teme though, as the geology and land use is so varied...personally I think the reasons for barbel decline are multifaceted, with predation being one of many factors, although every river system will be different. But with any ecosystem, the impacts of predation are always much more significant when the ecosystem is knackered.
 
When I started fishing on the Teme, in the mid 80’s the river had a huge population of small barbel. But it was a nightmare to fish for them after dark as you got plagued with bootlace eels no matter what bait you used and otters were regularly spotted on the stretch I fished.
The otters staple diet is eels so until/unless we see a return off the eel in the numbers we used to I can not see any way back for the barbel.
 
I would like to support Lawrence on all of what he has said in this thread regarding the Teme (although I have never fished the Teme , maybe one day I will) and also understand this is a deeply emotive subject to this community, a situation which we all want to resolve in some way if we possibly can.

I was fortunate to live near some prolific Barbel stretches of the River Great Ouse including, Adams Farm, back at the turn of the century, my first recollection of the Otter situation on the Ouse coincided with a sign from the local council which said something like (the environment at this location is considered right for the reintroduction of the Otter) I also found, built into the bank, in the back water a potential Otter residence.
Its a sad fact it took many years, probably around ten, before the stretch was no longer attractive as a venue for anglers for big Barbel .
During that period I was unaware of any pollution event and I feel sure I would have known as I was so local.

I started to fish for Chub more after the Barbel appeared to no longer be present, but I think the big dog otter I used to see every evening in winter swim with a huge bow wave up the mid river probably may have eaten the Chub too as they seemed to disappear also.

Rivers levels are up and down like a yo yo and if you think you should see the remains of a recently killed fish on the waters edge you probably will not, they may well be on the bottom of the river, or floating towards the sea ect ect.

I think the EA need to get on board with this issue and stick up for the people who pay for a rod license, after all we are the only people who pay money and care about the fish in our rivers.
To be honest, I think my fear is the Otter is now reintroduced into our river systems and having a devastating effect more so year on year as they become more prevalent ( as Lawrence said its an Apex predator, but we must be mindful its not the Otters fault its a beautiful creature in its right place/supportive environment)
So maybe we need to be more active with the EA on this issue. Just a thought.

Also of course thank you to Lawrence for raising awareness and his thinking on this.

We need to protect our Barbel and yes I should have said something sooner on here.
Ade.
 
On a small waterway,can otters and barbel Coexist at all? With food in abundance won't just a single otter keep killing relentlessly out of instinct,just like a fox in a hen house or a domestic cat.
 
Mark Mole said:
On a small waterway,can otters and barbel Coexist at all? With food in abundance won't just a single otter keep killing relentlessly out of instinct,just like a fox in a hen house or a domestic cat.
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No way , shallow narrow small rivers are finely balanced mini eco environments and an Otter or otters soon tip that balance into their favour as they eat their way through barbel populations....
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
No way , shallow narrow small rivers are finely balanced mini eco environments and an Otter or otters soon tip that balance into their favour as they eat their way through barbel populations....
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The otters also travel many miles up the tributary streams that flow into those narrow rivers. E.G.. otters travel up Dumbleton Brook, which enters the Teme at bottom end of Eardiston stretch, as far as Clows Top (and maybe further). No doubt they empty the streams as they go ..and for sure wipe out garden ponds and pools close to these streams and brooks. They're like a plague (IMO)
 
Neil Smart said:
With respect Lol that is pure speculation that those Barbel that come up the Teme fall victim to predation. Don't you think that such a mass kill would be evident?
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Neil, with respect chap, otters don’t ‘mass kill’.
An adult otter taking just a single barbel, once a week, is enough. Do some maths and then add another otter, then make it two barbel each otter per week.....
 
Julian Peacock said:
Neil, with respect chap, otters don’t ‘mass kill’.
An adult otter taking just a single barbel, once a week, is enough. Do some maths and then add another otter, then make it two barbel each otter per week.....
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And how many Otter do you suppose there are on the Teme to account for so many Barbel? Also bearing in mind that Barbel would be there only victims according to your maths formula. In short it doesn't add up.
 
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