Declan Doherty
Senior Member
So why not stand up for what you believe in and disassociate yourselves from Dynamite?
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Stillwater barbel fishing 2010
- Thread starter Ray Walton
- Start date
So why not stand up for what you believe in and disassociate yourselves from Dynamite?
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
Apologies again Rich, but for me whose completely unaware of your backgrounds, there is still an obvious conflict of interest no matter how little the association might be. A very distant endorsement all the same.
Cheers, Jon
Cheers, Jon
R
Rich Frampton
Guest
Maybe that should happen.....but it won't acturally change anything because legislation allows the stocking of Barbel in stillwaters.That is the root problem and will always be.
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
For the amount of grief the BS is getting, if I was any part of the BS I would simply pay out of my own pocket to save all this antagonism & embarrassment. Is it worth it?
Financially, it cannot amount to much & the BS have quite a bit of cash in the kitty so I understand?
Cheers, Jon
Financially, it cannot amount to much & the BS have quite a bit of cash in the kitty so I understand?
Cheers, Jon
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
Legislation is one thing, but principles are another. Hold a raffle at forthcoming events & the takings could sponsor the equivalent.
Just out of interest, how is this distant endorsement worth to the BS? £100, £200 per year?
Cheers, Jon
Just out of interest, how is this distant endorsement worth to the BS? £100, £200 per year?
Cheers, Jon
Declan Doherty
Senior Member
Oh right - so when are you dropping the 'swim wild, swim free'?
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Rich Frampton
Guest
Jon..I don't know.
Maybe it is something that needs further consideration from a principles viewpoint and that alone.But I keep going back to the fact that the Barbel were in the fishery before Dynamite got involved,so it isn't really down to them.
All the Barbel I fish for are wild and free......and I expect that is the same for the rest of the BS membership Declan.So that will never change.
If anyone feels strongly enough to be bothered you could always ask Steve yourself on his blog.
Maybe it is something that needs further consideration from a principles viewpoint and that alone.But I keep going back to the fact that the Barbel were in the fishery before Dynamite got involved,so it isn't really down to them.
All the Barbel I fish for are wild and free......and I expect that is the same for the rest of the BS membership Declan.So that will never change.
If anyone feels strongly enough to be bothered you could always ask Steve yourself on his blog.
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Richard Frampton Quote:
Hi Simon and Declan...Raymond knows what he is doing...its the same old..same old.
When Raymond makes comments on Steve and the committee then it is aimed at the BS.
Richard...Let me spell it out for you!
My posts are not at all aimed at the Barbel Society general membership as they know, and are quite the opposite.
I am trying to help, protect and inform the more important paying member’s interests (including you) and stop the Barbel Society’s good name being damaged by Steve Pope and the Committee.
With Steve's and the Committees recent actions, it brings the Barbel Society's name, as a whole, into 'disrepute' and 'questionable' to where every individual member of the BS will be 'Tarred With The Same Brush' in being seen to 'support' and 'endorse' Stillwater Barbel Fishing and Stocking Barbel into Stillwaters.
Basically, if Steve is seen to be associated, then it must be ok now!
The membership has not been informed of this ‘sanctioned deviation’ and total disrespect to the BS conservation Stillwater Barbel policy!
Obviously, somewhere hidden, there is another written BS policy and BS 'Stance' regarding committee members 'Endorsing Products and Sponsorship' to where being associated with a company that disregards and ‘fly’s in the face’ of BS R+C policies and membership beliefs should be avoided at all costs! Now is the time to exercise it and initiate damage limitation procedures.
As said, when the membership find out about this, it will be seen as ‘humiliating’ for one and all.
..Ray
Hi Simon and Declan...Raymond knows what he is doing...its the same old..same old.
When Raymond makes comments on Steve and the committee then it is aimed at the BS.
Richard...Let me spell it out for you!
My posts are not at all aimed at the Barbel Society general membership as they know, and are quite the opposite.
I am trying to help, protect and inform the more important paying member’s interests (including you) and stop the Barbel Society’s good name being damaged by Steve Pope and the Committee.
With Steve's and the Committees recent actions, it brings the Barbel Society's name, as a whole, into 'disrepute' and 'questionable' to where every individual member of the BS will be 'Tarred With The Same Brush' in being seen to 'support' and 'endorse' Stillwater Barbel Fishing and Stocking Barbel into Stillwaters.
Basically, if Steve is seen to be associated, then it must be ok now!
The membership has not been informed of this ‘sanctioned deviation’ and total disrespect to the BS conservation Stillwater Barbel policy!
Obviously, somewhere hidden, there is another written BS policy and BS 'Stance' regarding committee members 'Endorsing Products and Sponsorship' to where being associated with a company that disregards and ‘fly’s in the face’ of BS R+C policies and membership beliefs should be avoided at all costs! Now is the time to exercise it and initiate damage limitation procedures.
As said, when the membership find out about this, it will be seen as ‘humiliating’ for one and all.
..Ray
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Rich Frampton
Guest
Love to know what it has got to do with you anyway Raymond.
You had better ban all the members of the specialists from using Dynamite baits too then.
Sorry but the best course for me is to TRY to ignore you as pretty well all other people do.What a shame.
You had better ban all the members of the specialists from using Dynamite baits too then.
Sorry but the best course for me is to TRY to ignore you as pretty well all other people do.What a shame.
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Exactly Rich..So now that Dynamite are involved with Makins seemingly since 2009 why are you still there? You should have jumped ship ‘immediately’ and ‘refused’ sponsorship like you do with other companies.
It is not that Steve is personally involved in this as well is it?
Has this been deliberately ‘overlooked’ and ‘hushed hushed’ on this occasion?
What you are truly saying Rich, (as you are no doubt speaking on behalf of Steve etc here), is that the BS committee can't/won’t do any more for the poor 'Stillwater Barbel' or the members on this issue; and you are therefore edging towards supporting the Dynamite sponsoring of Stillwater Barbel Fishing and Stocking, thus overiding the BS Conservation Protocol, to continue your sponsorship, which is now seen to be more important?
If ‘Stillwater Barbel’ is now off the agenda and a BS abandoned issue, can I ask why no one ever bothered to spend the R+C funds (what it was raised for ie. Research) to try and gain Scientific Evidence to support BS claims, which to then, we may have seen a much positive response than your… “but is the BS or anyone going to stop that from happening....no. So I'm afraid we have to put up with it”
I just hope this statement is sanctioned by your committee as I think it is a complete joke and unbelievable. But there again it is from you and not unexpected.
Just remember, that's 15 years down the drain for some who believed!
Last Point…Has the BS Committee ‘personally’ ever accepted free items/sweeteners from the sponsor or sponsored?
Best Regards…Ray
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Rich Frampton
Guest
Craig Wood
Senior Member
This has been a very interesting read and im not taking any sides but i think ray does have a point..I used to be a member of bs but i wouldent join again for reasons best kept to myself..I wouldent dream of fishing for barbel in stillwaters and as everyone knows they are not still water fish here or anywhere in europe..I do think that bs is contradicting itself and indeed from what ive just read it confirms this to be true..I attended a recent bs meeting some months ago and was not impressed with what was said but thats just my opinion for what its worth..My comments and thoughts are in no way aimed at anyone personally..
Regards craig..
Regards craig..
Damian Kimmins
Senior Member
How far do you think the R and C fund would get you in a research project of that nature Ray? You'll know all to well that in order for such a project to be taken even remotely seriously would require funds far in excess of what the R and C might have at it's disposal. With that, such a suggestion it has to said, is really indicative of your demeanour for the willful cutting down of those on the Committee of the BS to highlight, on the strength of your no longer being there, what you think it isn't doing right. Only, as above there's almost no thought going into what you say, just a wish for wanton destruction.
Now admit to yourself that indeed the BS have done a damn fine job with what they've done in the past 15 years, because that is really what niggles away at you isn't - that knowledge, deep down?
R
Rich Frampton
Guest
Hi Craig.......you make an interesting point when you say that you didn't agree with what was said.What exactly was that??
If we are to improve our meetings then your feedback is more than welcome and really is appreciated.
It is sad that whatever the problems are that it is enough to prevent you from being involved again.
Rich.
Howard Hutchins
Senior Member
Ray. Just watched the video on your link http://www.meat.org/
and have cancelled my order for the Ray Walton rollin pin,as never again
will i roll a lump of meat
Wonder if Barbel could talk, you could ask the Adams mill fish,if you could find any not scoffed by Otters,would they rather have been a resident,
of an otter free stillwater
How many here have garden ponds,fishtanks,or goldfish bowls,if so id suggest
you release them post-haste,as worse than still-water-barbel imo.
Howard
and have cancelled my order for the Ray Walton rollin pin,as never again
will i roll a lump of meat
Wonder if Barbel could talk,
you could ask the Adams mill fish,if you could find any not scoffed by Otters,would they rather have been a resident,of an otter free stillwater
How many here have garden ponds,fishtanks,or goldfish bowls,if so id suggest
you release them post-haste,as worse than still-water-barbel imo.
Howard
Colin Gordon
No Longer a Member
What a load of sanctimonious misinforming drivel that video link truly was. I could sit and pull nigh on everything that came out of McCartney's mouth to pieces, but really can't be bothered.....
I'll just say, not eating meat products never stopped his wife dying of cancer did it!
I'll just say, not eating meat products never stopped his wife dying of cancer did it!
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Hi Damian...In my opinion as a founder member of the BS in 1995, I would say that yes the BS did a fine job when Andy Orme was at the helm of things and there were good intentions set out by one and all involved.
The main issues were related to the 'Close Season' and 'Stillwater Barbel' and to which the Barbel Society members were instrumental in pursuing and gaining a high membership figure along the way to back these issues.
After Andy Orme's departure, then the BS became a 'dictatorship' and many influential members departed, including me. It has been like this ever since and the membership has halved since its heyday!
Nothing wrong there though is there? Personally, I think it tells you that something is not quite right at the top end!
With regards research, to my knowledge no proper scientific research has ever been undertaken by the BS even with the funds available! It begs the question, why is it a Research and Conservation Fund, when no research has ever been seen to be worthwhile or cost effective?
As you say, proper 'Scientific Research' may cost a lot of money and time to undertake, but it seems that this has continuously been used an 'excuse' not to do any at all.
With regard to Stillwater Barbel, all you had to do was to get BS members or committee members like Steve and Fred Crouch on the bank of a Stillwater Fishery, catch and log the captures regarding health and condition of the fish, water quality testing, water temperatures and so on. If you did this with the advice, co-operation and input from a local university and other interested experts in the field including fish scientists and biologists, then you would have been guided to draw up a 'Scientific Paper on the subject to where the authorities would have taken notice off.
The sad part is that you have never put yourselves out to do anything about proving your claims beyond doubt by undertaking your own research and study. It should have been your duty to do so, and still is!
Hence the BS is still in the same position as it was 15 years ago when they first started highlighting the issue! With no BS research on the matter, the EA still stock barbel into Stillwaters stating that there is no ‘Scientific Evidence’ to prove otherwise in that it detrimental to the species!
Although the BS have met with the EA officials and others, all the BS have put forward is a ‘view’ to where the BS agree with the EA that it is ok to stock barbel into rivers and ‘Open Waters’! Stocking barbel into small lakes and ponds is therefore still legal and authorized by the EA because you have not gone out of your way to do the homework and study to prove the point! We all know the truth and reality regarding the Stillwater Issue and the majority or river anglers disapprove of such, but the BS has been negligent all along the line and they will now be seen to have lost the battle, when they really could and should have won it!
The Barbel Study Group did just this when they found serious problems on the River Lea Barbel back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s to where the members (around 12) spent 2 years of their life in collating the necessary evidence to prove the problems existed. Prior to this, they spent 2 years in collating ‘antidotal’ evidence to which the NRA rubbished first off.
Money/Funds did not come into it at all as all that was required was ‘Time and Enthusiasm and Belief, that what they were doing was for the protection and welfare of barbel. They went out of their way to get Brunel University involved and they participated free of charge. A Scientific Paper was written and accepted to where the knowledge collated was found to be useful to other fish scientists around the world to where the findings were incorporated into their own research on their own rivers with similar bottom feeding species.
There is no excuse any more!
The main issues were related to the 'Close Season' and 'Stillwater Barbel' and to which the Barbel Society members were instrumental in pursuing and gaining a high membership figure along the way to back these issues.
After Andy Orme's departure, then the BS became a 'dictatorship' and many influential members departed, including me. It has been like this ever since and the membership has halved since its heyday!
Nothing wrong there though is there? Personally, I think it tells you that something is not quite right at the top end!
With regards research, to my knowledge no proper scientific research has ever been undertaken by the BS even with the funds available! It begs the question, why is it a Research and Conservation Fund, when no research has ever been seen to be worthwhile or cost effective?
As you say, proper 'Scientific Research' may cost a lot of money and time to undertake, but it seems that this has continuously been used an 'excuse' not to do any at all.
With regard to Stillwater Barbel, all you had to do was to get BS members or committee members like Steve and Fred Crouch on the bank of a Stillwater Fishery, catch and log the captures regarding health and condition of the fish, water quality testing, water temperatures and so on. If you did this with the advice, co-operation and input from a local university and other interested experts in the field including fish scientists and biologists, then you would have been guided to draw up a 'Scientific Paper on the subject to where the authorities would have taken notice off.
The sad part is that you have never put yourselves out to do anything about proving your claims beyond doubt by undertaking your own research and study. It should have been your duty to do so, and still is!
Hence the BS is still in the same position as it was 15 years ago when they first started highlighting the issue! With no BS research on the matter, the EA still stock barbel into Stillwaters stating that there is no ‘Scientific Evidence’ to prove otherwise in that it detrimental to the species!
Although the BS have met with the EA officials and others, all the BS have put forward is a ‘view’ to where the BS agree with the EA that it is ok to stock barbel into rivers and ‘Open Waters’! Stocking barbel into small lakes and ponds is therefore still legal and authorized by the EA because you have not gone out of your way to do the homework and study to prove the point! We all know the truth and reality regarding the Stillwater Issue and the majority or river anglers disapprove of such, but the BS has been negligent all along the line and they will now be seen to have lost the battle, when they really could and should have won it!
The Barbel Study Group did just this when they found serious problems on the River Lea Barbel back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s to where the members (around 12) spent 2 years of their life in collating the necessary evidence to prove the problems existed. Prior to this, they spent 2 years in collating ‘antidotal’ evidence to which the NRA rubbished first off.
Money/Funds did not come into it at all as all that was required was ‘Time and Enthusiasm and Belief, that what they were doing was for the protection and welfare of barbel. They went out of their way to get Brunel University involved and they participated free of charge. A Scientific Paper was written and accepted to where the knowledge collated was found to be useful to other fish scientists around the world to where the findings were incorporated into their own research on their own rivers with similar bottom feeding species.
There is no excuse any more!
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Ray Walton
Senior Member
Rich...The BS have had 15 years of experience in this and it is now going backwards and you can see it. With you becoming a new committee member in the near future, i don't think i hold much hope either, but you might get some free bait as an incentive!..Best Regards...Ray
Ray Thorpe
Senior Member
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Rich Frampton
Guest
Good afternoon Raymond and all.
Raymond,you have obviously great enthusiasm,knowledge and commitment for the things that really matter to you.I am sure that many people in the years gone by thought that you were a leading light.I know that is what came into my mind back in the early 90's.What absolutely staggers me is that when,as you continuely keep mentioning,you were a founder member you threw away your opportunity that you had then to harness these attributes.You could have acturally done something.I find it unbelievable to be honest and I am sure that new people looking in on here will wonder why too.You had the chance to be at the forefront of things but you threw it away on some sort of ego trip.What a waste.And now.......well,I suppose bitter and twisted comes to mind first when it should be something else.
Your comment regarding me going on the committee.....well if I am ever given the honour then I,for sure,won't throw it away and then complain later.You can save that on your hard drive for later if you want.
The comment regarding free bait is so pathetic it doesn't justify any reply.
You cann't rewrite the mistakes you made back then by belittling everything now....good people will see through that and your once great standing will be even further damaged.
Rich.
Raymond,you have obviously great enthusiasm,knowledge and commitment for the things that really matter to you.I am sure that many people in the years gone by thought that you were a leading light.I know that is what came into my mind back in the early 90's.What absolutely staggers me is that when,as you continuely keep mentioning,you were a founder member you threw away your opportunity that you had then to harness these attributes.You could have acturally done something.I find it unbelievable to be honest and I am sure that new people looking in on here will wonder why too.You had the chance to be at the forefront of things but you threw it away on some sort of ego trip.What a waste.And now.......well,I suppose bitter and twisted comes to mind first when it should be something else.
Your comment regarding me going on the committee.....well if I am ever given the honour then I,for sure,won't throw it away and then complain later.You can save that on your hard drive for later if you want.
The comment regarding free bait is so pathetic it doesn't justify any reply.
You cann't rewrite the mistakes you made back then by belittling everything now....good people will see through that and your once great standing will be even further damaged.
Rich.
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