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Stillwater barbel fishing 2010

I fully understand Rays point on all this, the way I see it is Ray looks at and fully understands the whole point of being a barbel angler...and then he keeps his eyes wide open to everything current in our ever changing environment.

Very simple...if you stick with the past and don't move forward you will be buried....maybe the way the BS is going

However things are changing that fast nowadays so you cannot dismiss anything.

Up to us lot to learn a bit and not dismiss anything when it comes to protecting your rivers...or your prefered species

Very steep learning curve and however we think we know it and can predict the furure....we can't

Cheers
Jason
 
Phew, thought you meant me for a minute Ray. I suspect "Richard " was aimed at Rich Frampton, because I definately don't know Steve Pope's phone number:confused:
 
I think Ray, that a distinction has to be made between what an individual does and says, and what that same person might, as a member of a Committee. I think all too often you seem to cloud the two purposefully, as do others, in a seemingly endless dislike of Steve Pope. Why, I don't know.
Yes, the Society in the past have greatly benefitted from their (it has to be said small scale) partnership with Dynamite Baits - having been suppliers of not a small amount of bait, particularly with the Junior Section I believe. It is no doubt, a mutually beneficial partnership, and one which I hope for the sake of areas benefitting continued.
It is no surprise that this partnership receives less of your attention than the much more important one of Steve Pope and his use of Dynamite's baits. Ultimately, it is one for Steve Pope to debate as an individual.

For my part (and this is where any BS member against the stocking of barbel into stillwaters should concentrate), it is those in the Society who try to influence the policy making in the relevant authorities whom I shall look to when it comes to my deciding where an official position might be.
 
Ray....I think you will find that the Barbel Society does not endorse products.I have found this myself.
What Steve does personally is his business.In the same way as the orgainisation that you are chair of,has people of influence running a commercial bait company.
So maybe it is time to get off your soap box.
Damian is right when he says that the only beneficiary of Dyamite,as a society,is the Junior section and a worthwhile cause it is too.
Are the current owners still acturally stocking barbel into the fishery???

Rich.
 
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"""have now been duped and double crossed by the instigator for personal gain and self promotion."""".........a quote from Ray Walton.

:D
Kettle........black.......
 
Steve Pope Quote: 1996 - Mike Burdon was still having problems getting people interested in his work, which always surprised us as practically every member had expressed an interest in this subject. One bright light was Paul Garner, he helped out enormously in the beginning producing our detailed piece on Stillwater barbel and its no surprise that he went on to make a name for himself in the wider angling world.

Steve Pope Quote: 1997 - We made a visit to Calverton to see for ourselves how they went about their work and to get information on some of the Stillwater’s they had helped to stock to enable us to monitor the situation.

Steve Pope Quote:1998 - We were still waging war in the press and we won the vote in the Angling Times showing the weight of opinion against barbel being in Stillwater, this led to another war of words with Keith Arthur who took the different view, probably one of the reasons we’ve never been invited onto his shows.

Steve Pope Quote: 1999 -
“The new Millennium dawned and the year was set to be a very busy one for the Society, but as it drew to a close great sadness befell both the Society and the Angling world itself.
We received confirmation that the Stillwater fishery at the centre of the barbel stocking row had in fact obtained section 30 consent for the introduction of 3500 barbel between 6 and 10 inches long, so much for the claimed monsters!â€

Steve Pope Quote: 2003 - Lo and behold in the press Des Taylor finally admitted that he agreed with our stance on Stillwater barbel, now if only he would help us in our quest to convince the other doubters.


Rich...Can we have clarification and statements of the BS position on Stillwater Barbel from the engineer and not the oily rag please, as previously requested!

The company that your suggesting do not Sponsor 'Stillwater Barbel Fishing' or support stocking barbel into stillwaters. That is the big difference!

As Steve Pope and the Barbel Society are now 'in bed' with a sponsor that does support and 'sponsors' Stillwater Barbel Fishing, then there has been a big U-Turn in what is stated in the BS Research and Conservation policy document and has broken the Steve Pope/BS 'cornerstone' as to why the BS exists.
As Steve Pope says, It is one of the main reasons why barbel angers join the BS, to support of the ‘Stillwater Barbel Issue’ and the BS commitment to pursue this and get it stopped.

If Steve Pope and the current BS committee have ‘dumped’ the Stillwater Barbel Issue in favour of sponsorship and monetary reasons, and no longer feel it is detrimental to barbel, then say so and remove it from the R+C Policy. It is now out of date and meaningless.

If so, you must therefore expect the BS membership to show 'disgust' in Steve Pope and the Committee in sanctioning this outrage in exchange for sponsorship and ‘endorsement’ of their products by the Chairman for monetary gain and self promotion... at the expense of destroying BS credibility and undermining R+C policy.

You must therefore expect more BS members to resign or not renew their membership when this becomes public knowledge.
Again, Steve and the committee have shown ‘arrogance’ towards the membership and all river barbel angler beliefs.. and killed off what the Barbel Society really stands for.
It does the BS no favours and in recruiting new members and Steve should choose which road to take, His Love and position in the BS or Dynamite Bait to further his new career.
The BS Logo/Flag …Swim Wild…Swim Free…is no longer relevant.

You can't ‘have one's cake and eat it too’...But in this case ..You regretfully have.

The BS/Dynamite link is like Linda McCartney Meat Free products being sponsorsed by the Meat Industry or a Slaughter House.
There is little difference… and it wouldn’t happen…..http://www.meat.org/

Shame on You....Ray
 
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Ray you really do talk absolute tripe.
Your attempted assassination of all BS or Steve Pope is making you look abit silly.

What has the BS got to do with you anyway????????????????????/

Yours....the oily cloth.
 
Damian (and Rich), it most definitely IS an ethical issue worthy of debate.

Trying to seperate out Steve Pope "The Man" from Steve Pope "The BS Figurehead" when an angling issue, specifically Barbel-Related, nay Stillwater Barbel-Related is unearthed, won't wash. We're not talking about which soap-powder he uses, after all?

I find it interesting that you'll both jump straight in and defend Steve while admitting at the same time that you're not aware of what he's doing or done on the subject.
You're quick to bring forward the old "knocking the BS" retort too, yet that's not actually what this is about, is it? Nor has the BS itself been "knocked".

The fact remains that someone who consistently and passionately espouses a particular point-of-view on any given subject, and then takes action that turns that view on its head (volte face), is open to question.


I think we need a message from The Man himself, don't you? ;)
 
Hi Simon and Declan...Raymond knows what he is doing...its the same old..same old.
When Raymond makes comments on Steve and the committee then it is aimed at the BS.

When you walk through long grass in the summer,especially in the hills,it is possible to pick up a tick that bites your skin and irritates the hell out of you until you flick it off.....in a previous life maybe Raymond was that little beast.. :)

I know that the best thing anyone can do is ignore it....but god it does do your head in.
Enjoy whats left of the bank holiday and maybe we can chat if you're at the show.

Rich.
 
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I also find posts that make personal digs irritating. In fact, I occasionally 'mod' them.

This thread concerns a question raised by Ray; if it wanders any further, it goes.

Thanks,

Jon
 
Ray Walton said:
Can someone bring this up at the Barbel Society AGM in 'any other business'!
regarding the BS stance on 'Stillwater Barbel' in relation to the statements made in to the 'Research and Conservation' protocol and 'Barbel Facts' both published on the BS website and elsewhere as below.

The Barbel Society ‘Research and Conservation’ statements and 'Facts' statements and policy has always been seen to ‘condemn’ Stillwater Barbel Fishing and the Stocking of barbel into stillwaters, and this states valid points to promote, inform and convince 'all' barbel anglers, that this practice is highly detrimental to barbel and wrong!
Hence the BS slogan ‘Swim Wild…Swim Free’ was originally adopted to aid and promote the mission cause to get it outlawed.

There seems to be a major element of contradiction regarding 'Stillwater Barbel' in recent times and a massive U turn by Steve Pope + the BS Committee regarding this issue, 'without' informing the BS membership and others and to where it has been suppressed.

I remember (as a founder BS member myself) in the early days to where the BS as a whole were continuously making waves and confronting Daiwa, for ’sponsoring’ Daiwa Makins Fishery, which was regarded as the home/prison of Stillwater Barbel.
How things have 'quietly' changed recently though, and it needs to be addressed firmly and promptly at the AGM.

Makins Fishery is now 'sponsored' by Dynamite Baits and the fishery name has changed to ‘Dynamite Makins Fishery’.
Steve Pope now 'endorses' Dynamite Baits who also 'sponsor' the Barbel Society to some degree, and to where Steve Pope is 'personally sponsored' by Dynamite Baits as one of their team.

The question should be raised as to why the Barbel Society and especially the Chairman, Steve Pope have been allowed by the BS committee to become associated and 'in bed' with a sponsor of Stillwater Barbel Fishing!

The BS Research and Conservation Statement and Facts still condemn Stillwater Barbel Fishing are the words are still preached to every barbel angler in the UK and, to whom the BS claim they represent on all barbel issues and matters.

The Barbel Society being associated with a Stillwater Barbel Sponsor, and to where the Chairman is personally sponsored and endorsing the company name, makes his position ‘untenable’ as it brings the Barbel Society’s good name, achievements, reputation and conservation objectives into disrepute.

Why nothing has been said on this matter is a mystery, but perhaps most don't know in the first place, so nothing new then.
Many Thanks…Ray (see Below)

As Published
Stillwater barbel

The Barbel Society remains resolutely opposed to the stocking of barbel in stillwaters.
The barbel is clearly highly adapted to life in flowing water with consistently low temperatures and high oxygen levels, and requires great care on return to the water after capture.

There is little evidence that barbel already stocked into stillwaters thrive or survive in the long term, or that there is a strong or genuine demand from anglers for stillwater barbel. The Society urges fishery owners to refrain from stocking barbel into stillwaters, and also expects the Environment Agency to review their policy of allowing such stockings.

The moral and ethical arguments against stillwater barbel are also considerable.
Putting barbel into lakes is like keeping kestrels in a chicken coop.

BS Facts

6. The Environment Agency is their good practice guide to Freshwater Fisheries state that is dubious practice to deliberately stock barbel into habitats where they are expected to live on a catch-and-release basis while being very unlikely to be able to spawn successfully.

7. There is justifiable fear that stocking small barbel into commercial stillwater fisheries creates a demand leading the unscrupulous to take large barbel from the river to the detriment of the river anglers and the barbel themselves.

8. Fish farms which breed barbel and grow them on for stocking do this in semi still water but all require some method for increased oxygenation.

9. There is no published scientific information which recommends the stocking of barbel into stillwaters, or which claims barbel thrive and grow big in stillwater.

10. Barbel require conditions to spawn which cannot be found in stillwaters and naturally sustaining populations of barbel in stillwaters are not possible.

11. Barbel are less tolerant of high water temperatures and low oxygen levels that stillwater fish such as tench and carp. The lethal concentration of oxygen is almost twice as high for barbel that it is for tench.

12. More barbel have been stocked into stillwaters than all the rivers put together. These stillwater stockings are frequently repeated as the only impact they have is to increase the mortality rates of the stillwater fishery.

13. Barbel are great wanderers in rivers, often moving several kilometres in a matter of days in order to seek suitable conditions when changes in water temperature, flow rates etc. occur and also to suit their seasonal needs. Barbel cannot do this in the commercial stillwaters.

14. Commercial stillwaters do not provide the correct habitat for barbel to thrive not just the water quality is in question but the overhead cover is usually missing.

17. Several case studies of the effects of impoundment of river sections containing natural barbel populations exist. In all cases, with the onset of stillwater flow conditions barbel populations declined appreciably.

18. Thousands of small barbel have entered Trimpley reservoir via an inlet from the River Severn yet Trimpley is not full of large barbel ! If only 10% of them had entered a suitable habitat there would have been a barbel explosion.

19. Barbel are stocked into commercial stillwaters without any thought for the fish themselves but for financial gain - greed!

20. Barbel spend most of their lives on the river bed and in stillwaters they have a greater risk of parasites in these conditions.

21. The potential for recapture is far greater in stillwaters than it is in rivers and barbel will experience increased stress when frequently caught and more so at spawning time by being unable to spawn in stillwater conditions. Barbel frequently die after capture from stillwaters.

22. Continued exposure to poor water quality and lack of water flow will affect the survival of individual barbel - they will die and in commercial stillwaters they are frequently stolen from rivers and re-stocked into stillwaters.
Click to expand...

Jon......the first personal dig was in this post.
Please note who made it.
Cheers
Rich.
 
Are there any 'personal digs' in that post? I can't see any.. It seems to me, as a 'bystander', that RW made some valid points. If I was a BS member I'd be looking forward to some kind of response.

There really is nothing worse than a hypocrite..
 
Rich,

Please don't underestimate the efforts of the moderators - we do read the threads.

Please also note that my comment was a general one asking that we keep on topic and avoid personal comments. Nobody was singled out. For the record though, since you appear to seek clarity, your 'tick' remark was an example of the kind of comment which really doesn't help.

Thanks,

Jon
 
OK...sorry Jon.
You are right in that it isn't really helping matters.
However,RW's constant jibes at the BS and SP in particular do get people down.


Thanks.
Rich.
 
Declan...or possibly knowing only half of the background to all this.
 
Rich Frampton said:
Declan...or possibly knowing only half of the background to all this.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that 'background' is particularly relevant Rich.

The BS apparantly promotes 'swim wild, swim free', whilst it, and it's Chairman, are closely involved with a company which promotes, and encourages people to pay to catch, Barbel in stillwaters.

What else is there to say?
 
The involvement with Dynamite goes back 6 years or so.If involvement is the right word....Long before Dynamite got involved with Makin Fisheries at any rate.
Nobody...Steve or the BS or anyone in the BS wants people to pay to catch Barbel in a stillwater....but is the BS or anyone going to stop that from happenning.....no.
So I'm afraid we have to put up with it.
 
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