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SAD REALISATION

So why did he not take photos and send to the relevant authorities? What i struggle with is if otters are so destructive in such a short period of time, why are we not finding masses of dead fish along the banksides? We get the occasaional photo but not what we might expect given the devestation otters are alleged to cause. I see otters quite regularly on the Wye but as yet have seen no fish remains...what does that tell us given, as far as i understand, they cannot eat their prey in the water?
He did take photos..he had no help from the EA or the Thames River Trust, due to law, theres not much they can do or are prepared to do, otters on certain rivers will take their kill out of the river to eat the ofal, other rivers or parts of rivers they will drag the carcass onto shingle, most of the time badgers and fox's clear up what's left.
 
I get the law bit but as someone who used to fish Thames tributaries i do not recall seeing any images anywhere of frequent fish kills by otters on the Windrush, further downstream mink were more of an issue but not as much as crays...I probably missed the photos. I am also struggling with imagining foxes and badgers clearing up after otters, especially given the cull over the past few years, that to me is just too easy a reason for no material evidence and it is the forst time I have heard of badgers eating fish. I do believe otters belong on our watercourses but only if said rivers can support them without detriment to fish stocks. If angling wishes to present a case for otter devastation it needs much more hard/scientic evidence of otter kill than is currently in the public domain and certainly that i am aware of. It could well be I am just not cognisant with the available evidence.
 
I get the law bit but as someone who used to fish Thames tributaries i do not recall seeing any images anywhere of frequent fish kills by otters on the Windrush, further downstream mink were more of an issue but not as much as crays...I probably missed the photos. I am also struggling with imagining foxes and badgers clearing up after otters, especially given the cull over the past few years, that to me is just too easy a reason for no material evidence and it is the forst time I have heard of badgers eating fish. I do believe otters belong on our watercourses but only if said rivers can support them without detriment to fish stocks. If angling wishes to present a case for otter devastation it needs much more hard/scientic evidence of otter kill than is currently in the public domain and certainly that i am aware of. It could well be I am just not cognisant with the available evidence.

I agree entirely with your last point Paul. For all the talk of the impact of otter predation over the the course of the last 10-15 years, anglers still haven't put together any sort of a case that could be used to influence policy makers into implementing any sort of control measures (lethal or non-lethal) or mitigation strategies. Anecdotal evidence simply won't cut the mustard with policy-makers, only thoroughly researched, hard empirical data will.

Look what the shooters did in the 60's and 70's when grey partridge numbers were on the floor and the lengths they went to to understand the ecology of the species, the habitat requirements and the impact of predation. In the space of a little over 10 years, one University alone (Southampton) had produced over twenty PhD theses related to grey partridge conservation. Central to all this work was late great Dick Potts of the GWCT, who identified three main causes of the partridge decline: reduced chick survival reduction in chick-food invertebrates (due to herbicides), lack of suitable nesting habitat, and poor nesting success due to predation. He brought them together in a computer model to predict their relative importance and synergistic interaction, and developed a theory known as the “three-legged stool”, if one leg failed, the partridge “stool” would collapse. A theory which has stood the test of time and made a hugely important role in the conservation of the species, and other farmland birds.

And for those that genuinely believe that otters are the primary cause of barbel decline, then simply resigning to the view Joe Public that thinks otters are cute (do they?) and that nothing can ever be done is a bit of a cop-out isn't it? There are plenty of examples of predator control right across the conservation sector. But generally, with the exception of badgers, most of these interventions are backed by the science.
 
I get the law bit but as someone who used to fish Thames tributaries i do not recall seeing any images anywhere of frequent fish kills by otters on the Windrush, further downstream mink were more of an issue but not as much as crays...I probably missed the photos. I am also struggling with imagining foxes and badgers clearing up after otters, especially given the cull over the past few years, that to me is just too easy a reason for no material evidence and it is the forst time I have heard of badgers eating fish. I do believe otters belong on our watercourses but only if said rivers can support them without detriment to fish stocks. If angling wishes to present a case for otter devastation it needs much more hard/scientic evidence of otter kill than is currently in the public domain and certainly that i am aware of. It could well be I am just not cognisant with the available evidence.
Most of the evidence is anecdotal unfortunately due to the protection the otter is afforded in law, and there isnt enough time left frankly, its all a bit too late ...so do you believe that Cormorants and Goosanders have an effect on fish populations?
 
Lawrence there is the thread on here about the cormorant, which are resident on the stretch of the Wye I fish...I suspect a balance has been achieved re their number but cannot give any hard evidence, clearly they eat fish as do gooseanders are there does seem to be an increasing number of those on the river. I happen to think the latter are a stupendous bird, especially in flight and as i photograph BIF I never tire of seeing them. Are they a problem, of course they are as numbers appear to be increasing are they decimating or eve significantly reducing the coarse stocks of the Wye i have no idea.
 
the only animal on this planet decimating everything is us unfortunately all the poor animals that have been wiped out because of human interference is beyond belief, anyway on the Otter front there are plenty on the Bristol Avon and barbel are very few but never see any dead fish on the bank but they must have a big impact.
Andy
 
Hi all, am new to this forum and just want to add my own personal opinion and experience on this particular thread. I’ve been a barbel angler now for over 40 years and to this day still love to fish for this wonderful species. Fully understand that everyone has their own opinion so each to their own. Otters of course clearly aren’t the sole reason for the decline in barbel numbers on a large number of our rivers, but IMO are a big part of the problem. Another river stretch that suffered incredibly in recent years was the Rainsford Farm stretch of the river kennet (on the Thatcham Angling Association ticket), a fairly narrow section of river stretching for I would say 1 1/2 miles. I’m sure a number of BFW members a lot more local to the Kennet that me will know this place fairly well. This water was a prolific barbel stretch with a very high population of barbel ranging from 2-3lb up to 14lb, along with other species, chub and silver fish, and for me as an associate member (I live in West Sussex which was about 90 mile trip to the river kennet) the fishing was incredible, the norm being to catch between 6-10 barbel each trip. Unfortunately a family of otters took up residence, and from 2013 to 2016 catch rates for all anglers on this stretch diminished significantly. Barbel carcasses became a common sight on the riverbank and were reported to the Club officials. The position now as I understand it is that the place is now devoid of barbel (or for that matter chub/silver fish) and that Thatcham AA don’t now offer the Rainsford Farm stretch on its season ticket. I also know that the syndicate that fished the opposite bank also don’t fish there anymore. As I said earlier, Otters are not the SOLE reason for barbel number demise but on this stretch they were without doubt a major contributory factor!!!
 
ask the bailiff on the ivel if he thinks otters are are problem after witnessing a 20lb barbel being dragged up the bank by an otter

what can we do about it ? nothing ...the otter is one of the most protected mammals in this country... people are losing they’re livelihoods and that is why people are taking the law into their own hands
 
I`ve seen some interesting goosander behaviour on the Swale - I was quite high up the bank & 6 immature birds appeared, working their way up the margins, where I'd seen a lot of fry.
They worked as a group, forming a sort of semi circle & as they moved closer in to the bank tightened the `noose` ending up with a lot of activity as they snapped up the fry.
This was repeated in other suitable areas.
In the end I scared them off, but no doubt they will have returned to such a productive spot.
With some of the flooding this year I think it will contribute to a tough year for development of the 2020 hatchlings
 
I agree entirely with your last point Paul. For all the talk of the impact of otter predation over the the course of the last 10-15 years, anglers still haven't put together any sort of a case that could be used to influence policy makers into implementing any sort of control measures (lethal or non-lethal) or mitigation strategies. Anecdotal evidence simply won't cut the mustard with policy-makers, only thoroughly researched, hard empirical data will.

Look what the shooters did in the 60's and 70's when grey partridge numbers were on the floor and the lengths they went to to understand the ecology of the species, the habitat requirements and the impact of predation. In the space of a little over 10 years, one University alone (Southampton) had produced over twenty PhD theses related to grey partridge conservation. Central to all this work was late great Dick Potts of the GWCT, who identified three main causes of the partridge decline: reduced chick survival reduction in chick-food invertebrates (due to herbicides), lack of suitable nesting habitat, and poor nesting success due to predation. He brought them together in a computer model to predict their relative importance and synergistic interaction, and developed a theory known as the “three-legged stool”, if one leg failed, the partridge “stool” would collapse. A theory which has stood the test of time and made a hugely important role in the conservation of the species, and other farmland birds.

And for those that genuinely believe that otters are the primary cause of barbel decline, then simply resigning to the view Joe Public that thinks otters are cute (do they?) and that nothing can ever be done is a bit of a cop-out isn't it? There are plenty of examples of predator control right across the conservation sector. But generally, with the exception of badgers, most of these interventions are backed by the science.
actually joe anglers have put forward a case led by the predation action group and because of that otters can now be trapped and removed from fisheries under licence
 
As a long time Kennet and Loddon angler within 2 years of the first Otter sighting fish captures had dropped by 80% at least.

Paul. I have seen carcasses of a chub and a barbel on the Wye. Fish pulled onto the bank and the oil rich liver eaten But it's a big river.

I have no doubt that Otter predation has greatly diminished larger sized fish stocks on many small rivers. Horrific when you see videos of them attacking and killing geese swans and ducks.

Julian. I have commented on the goosander fishing methods in BFW before. Groups rounding up fish and driving then towards others waiting. Normal behaviour.
 
I'm aware of that Terry, but that's of no relevance to barbel in rivers is it?
you have to start somewhere joe ...but your point was if you read it back was anglers have done nothing in putting a case to policy makers when they quite clearly have wether they be barbel anglers or not it’s not an overnight fix it’s a long game there are people involved with PAG that have worked tirelessly on the predation issue and also have funded campaigns with their own personal finances
 
I agree entirely with your last point Paul. For all the talk of the impact of otter predation over the the course of the last 10-15 years, anglers still haven't put together any sort of a case that could be used to influence policy makers into implementing any sort of control measures (lethal or non-lethal) or mitigation strategies. Anecdotal evidence simply won't cut the mustard with policy-makers, only thoroughly researched, hard empirical data will.

Look what the shooters did in the 60's and 70's when grey partridge numbers were on the floor and the lengths they went to to understand the ecology of the species, the habitat requirements and the impact of predation. In the space of a little over 10 years, one University alone (Southampton) had produced over twenty PhD theses related to grey partridge conservation. Central to all this work was late great Dick Potts of the GWCT, who identified three main causes of the partridge decline: reduced chick survival reduction in chick-food invertebrates (due to herbicides), lack of suitable nesting habitat, and poor nesting success due to predation. He brought them together in a computer model to predict their relative importance and synergistic interaction, and developed a theory known as the “three-legged stool”, if one leg failed, the partridge “stool” would collapse. A theory which has stood the test of time and made a hugely important role in the conservation of the species, and other farmland birds.

And for those that genuinely believe that otters are the primary cause of barbel decline, then simply resigning to the view Joe Public that thinks otters are cute (do they?) and that nothing can ever be done is a bit of a cop-out isn't it? There are plenty of examples of predator control right across the conservation sector. But generally, with the exception of badgers, most of these interventions are backed by the science.

Bang on there Joe, particularly that first paragraph. Until we have hard empirical evidence we’re not achieving anything.
 
you have to start somewhere joe ...but your point was if you read it back was anglers have done nothing in putting a case to policy makers when they quite clearly have wether they be barbel anglers or not it’s not an overnight fix it’s a long game there are people involved with PAG that have worked tirelessly on the predation issue and also have funded campaigns with their own personal finances

It is probably fairer to say we’re not playing the game smart enough, even that’s maybe a bit unfair but I hope you understand my meaning.
 
as Lol said it’s too late studies should have been done 10 years ago or even before the reckless and uncontrolled re introduction of otters began the paper that martin salter and pete reading done with bournmouth university was farcical... of course they couldn’t find any barbel remains in otter spraint... might have something to do with otters eating most of them 5 years previous
 
Bang on there Joe, particularly that first paragraph. Until we have hard empirical evidence we’re not achieving anything.
the fact that fisheries can obtain a licence to humanly remove otters is evidence in itself isn’t it ? there’s obviously a recognised problem or it wouldn’t be allowed
 
you have to start somewhere joe ...but your point was if you read it back was anglers have done nothing in putting a case to policy makers when they quite clearly have wether they be barbel anglers or not it’s not an overnight fix it’s a long game there are people involved with PAG that have worked tirelessly on the predation issue and also have funded campaigns with their own personal finances

No I didn't say that anglers have done nothing. Clearly you have some anglers doing some great work, such as the inestimable Shaun Nurse and the
work he is doing with Bournemouth University on tagging barbel movements.

My point was that to have any chance of influencing policymakers you need to present them with evidence that stands up to scientific scrutiny, e.g. peer reviewed papers. You might argue that there isn't sufficient financial backing for the likes of the AT and the PAG to fund this sort of research, and that is probably true. Why is that? The review of angling socio-economics by the highly respected Prof Bruno Broughton in the selective citations document produced by the PAG alludes to angling contributing over £3 billion to the economy. I wonder how much specialist river angling contributes to that?

The likes of the Salmon and Trout Association and the Wildtrout Trust are spending money on research, why aren't the organisations that represent specialist anglers? What's the barrier? Is it apathy or something else?
 
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The PAG ( see Big picture 2) have been frustrated by the Angling Trust every step of the way, John Wilson warned of the effects of the otter before he went to Thailand, the Barbel Society raised a petition for a none lethal control of the otter, it got 12000 signatures, to suggest nothing has been done is little unfair, considering the limited resources anglers have.
 
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