otters

[Chris Turnbull]

Whilst it would be a shame to see our sport decline to nothing, they aren't "our" fish. Mother nature will decide the fishes fate as well as ours. Perhaps we should let her get on with it.

Mother Nature don't have much say in this game really. The impact of our modern lifestyle on our rivers, with it's over-population, over-abstraction, intensive agricultural practices and proliferation of invasive non-indigenous species holds all the trump cards. Much as the Conservation Groups like to play it down, the thoughtless reintroduction of otters into rivers with no concern for the consequences was an act of sheer stupidity. The deed is done now though, and there is no turning back. As for licensed culling, it is a non-starter... it ain't ever going to happen, so if the barbel stocks are eventually destroyed on various rivers, we will just have to learn to live with it and fish for whatever is left. I know I have, though I'm sorry to have to say it!

 

[Andy Bebbington]

Chris well said.
Andy

 

[Andrew Boyne]

thought the title of the thread was otters not ribble otters

It is, but Mark asked about the implications of an increase on the river he usually fishes, which, although he didn't specify, was made clear on the first page to be the Ribble.

While it is undoubtedly true that there may be many underlying problems affecting the fish stocks in a river, the fact remains that otters can devastate populations of barbel as has been shown to be the case on rivers like the Wensum and Great Ouse, etc. While the obvious answer to this is to improve their spawning habitat, etc. once otters have depleted stocks to the extent that the economic viability of these fisheries is seriously threatened, it is difficult to see where the enthusiasm and funding is going to come from to address the underlying problems?

Mother Nature don't have much say in this game really. The impact of our modern lifestyle on our rivers, with it's over-population, over-abstraction, intensive agricultural practices and proliferation of invasive non-indigenous species holds all the trump cards. Much as the Conservation Groups like to play it down, the thoughtless reintroduction of otters into rivers with no concern for the consequences was an act of sheer stupidity. The deed is done now though, and there is no turning back. As for licensed culling, it is a non-starter... it ain't ever going to happen, so if the barbel stocks are eventually destroyed on various rivers, we will just have to learn to live with it and fish for whatever is left. I know I have, though I'm sorry to have to say it!

Couldn't agree more. I am well aware of the devastation caused to variuos fsheries by the release of Otters into habitats which can not sustain them. I'm sure it hurts for you more than most after all the good work you did with NACA.

It's the sweeping generalisation that Otters will devastate every river in the country that annoys me. It is simply not true. The Wye has always had an Otter population as far as i know and i don't hear many complaing about the lack of Barbel on that river.

 

[Andy Bebbington]

Andy i think your wrong mate maybe you should read the title of the thread which says otters and then the first post which does not mention the ribble.
we all have otter problems at the moment which is why he put the thread up and asked for the implications of an increase of otters on a river.

Andy


are otters a problem?i think so and at the moment on the river i mainly fish they seem to be on the increase in your opinions what are the implications of this ,thanks.

 

[Andrew Boyne]

Andy i think your wrong mate maybe you should read the title of the thread which says otters and then the first post which does not mention the ribble.
we all have otter problems at the moment which is why he put the thread up and asked for the implications of an increase of otters on a river.

Andy

Take it as you like Andy, to be honest - knowing Mr Gaskell as i do he probably only made the post to get people bickering like we are for his amusement.

I would still say the implications of an increase in Otters depends entirely on the river in question. You can not generalise such things. The implications of an increase in numbers of Otters on a river that has historically always had them and also has healthy breeding stocks of fish would be far different to those of a river that hasn't seen an Otter for decades and has ageing populations of specimen fish and little in the way of fry recruitment.

are otters a problem?i think so and at the moment on the river i mainly fish they seem to be on the increase in your opinons what are the implications of this ,thanks.

There will be a lot less American Mink around.

 

[Mark Gaskell]

wind up

no it was a serious one this one i personally think they will do damage and are another major problem in the ever growing list of cute predators

 

[Eddie Farrell]

well otters were here before we started fishing,and in all rivers, people are complaining that they have returned to rivers, which in my mind they have every right to live, like any other animal, and blaming them that fish stocks are declining,
think more fish are lost throught birds ,than anything else, unless its human error, polution,

 

[Ian Crook]

I always get a little confused when people talk about the good old days, I grew up in the industrial North West and the vast majority of rivers were so polluted that nothing lived and there was no good fishing, I used to read that many rivers in the south were similarly polluted, however many on here talk about the vast abundance of fish in the good old days........

Back to otters, they are here to stay, we will never be able to control them in any way so we need to stop going on and on and round in circles, making the antis even more anti and get on with the job of improving our environment, improving our river populations and enjoying our fishing, whatever is there to catch.

 

[Joe Fletcher]

Over the last twenty years or more I have fished stretch of the W/Avon and never seen a Otter or any evidence of one day or night . I do know that they were introduced to the stretch I fish some years ago .
The floods of 2007 had a impact on the stocks of fish and only now returning back to what it was before the floods .
Where I fish there seems to be decent head of Barbel .
The only decline I have noticed is numbers of chub about . Weather that is down to Otters I dont know ?

 

[Eddie Farrell]

got told by an old guy, that the river irwell that runs through salford, was once one of the best salmon rivers in the country many years ago,, i bet it had otters on it as well,, like everything that else man touches he ****s it up ????, in the name of progress ?????, but now has good head of fish in it, chubb, roach ,bream, trout, pike, but it has taken yrs to recover, so there is hope,

 

[Ian Grant]

well otters were here before we started fishing,and in all rivers, people are complaining that they have returned to rivers, which in my mind they have every right to live, like any other animal, and blaming them that fish stocks are declining,
think more fish are lost throught birds ,than anything else, unless its human error, polution,

I keep saying i'll never post on Otter threads again .... but !

Eddie i think you're way off beam mate !
You're right Otters were once common throughout the rivers of the UK, their population crash was due to pollution, and habitat destruction, and was lamentable, but had the people who without proper authority re introduced Otters not done so the population would have naturally increased in a sustainable manner not only with regard to themselves but all wildlife in the vicinity where they live, benefiting from the much improved habitats, and the improving water quality of rivers which in no small part has largley been driven by the angling fraternity.
The re introductions that took place were carried out by people with no expertise in the field, and with little or no regard for welfare of the areas they were released into or the other wildlife they supported, and it's my belief the areas chosen such as the areas of the Wensum where Chris Turnbull, and the NACA spent over 25 years working so hard to restore that river, and it's habitat to a thriving state for all river wildlife, were deliberatly targeted in giving the way over introduced numbers sufficient food resources to allow them a foothold, this of course was succsesful, but at the cost of wrecking that hard work of the NACA, i believe Chris when he posts on here must be hiding a broken heart, it breaks mine just to think about it, what it must be like for him to see the investment of 25 years hard work trashed in a couple of years i couldn't begin to imagine.

Of course there were other areas where the same levels of introductions took place, such as the Bedfordshire Gt Ouse, where specifically taking Barbel, has seen it's population all but annihilated.

Since then the numbers of the decendants of these re introductions has spread, the severity of the numbers decreasing as it does, one day probably long after you and i are gone, nature in her cruel way will restore a balance, provided there are no more intoductions, and do gooders stop trying to rehabilitate orphaned and injured otters.
Their original habitat of hundreds of years ago no longer exists, if they are to fit in, nature must be allowed to find them their own niche, which will see an increase in some very low populated areas, and a gradual decrease in those over populated by those callous and irresponsible introductions by people with i suspect not a half ounce of brain matter between their ears.

It's one thing to say they have a right to live in our rivers, which they obviously do, and i for one have no problem with a population of natural levels, but in the areas that have over populations of them the damage will continue for years to come where there are too many of them, and in those i would like to see something done about it, as Chris says thats never going to happen - not legally anyway.

In my opinion people such as those who re introduced the Otters, who released the mink, etc etc, should in the future face massive fines, and long terms of imprisonment - will that ever happen of course not !
Just like the £2500 fine for no fishing license HA HA HA ! what a joke !

Regards
Ian.

 

[Eddie Farrell]

ian , a great read, must agree alot of points you have brought up, well said

 

[Chris Turnbull]

I keep saying i'll never post on Otter threads again .... but !

Eddie i think you're way off beam mate !
You're right Otters were once common throughout the rivers of the UK, their population crash was due to pollution, and habitat destruction, and was lamentable, but had the people who without proper authority re introduced Otters not done so the population would have naturally increased in a sustainable manner not only with regard to themselves but all wildlife in the vicinity where they live, benefiting from the much improved habitats, and the improving water quality of rivers which in no small part has largley been driven by the angling fraternity.
The re introductions that took place were carried out by people with no expertise in the field, and with little or no regard for welfare of the areas they were released into or the other wildlife they supported, and it's my belief the areas chosen such as the areas of the Wensum where Chris Turnbull, and the NACA spent over 25 years working so hard to restore that river, and it's habitat to a thriving state for all river wildlife, were deliberatly targeted in giving the way over introduced numbers sufficient food resources to allow them a foothold, this of course was succsesful, but at the cost of wrecking that hard work of the NACA, i believe Chris when he posts on here must be hiding a broken heart, it breaks mine just to think about it, what it must be like for him to see the investment of 25 years hard work trashed in a couple of years i couldn't begin to imagine.

Of course there were other areas where the same levels of introductions took place, such as the Bedfordshire Gt Ouse, where specifically taking Barbel, has seen it's population all but annihilated.

Since then the numbers of the decendants of these re introductions has spread, the severity of the numbers decreasing as it does, one day probably long after you and i are gone, nature in her cruel way will restore a balance, provided there are no more intoductions, and do gooders stop trying to rehabilitate orphaned and injured otters.
Their original habitat of hundreds of years ago no longer exists, if they are to fit in, nature must be allowed to find them their own niche, which will see an increase in some very low populated areas, and a gradual decrease in those over populated by those callous and irresponsible introductions by people with i suspect not a half ounce of brain matter between their ears.

It's one thing to say they have a right to live in our rivers, which they obviously do, and i for one have no problem with a population of natural levels, but in the areas that have over populations of them the damage will continue for years to come where there are too many of them, and in those i would like to see something done about it, as Chris says thats never going to happen - not legally anyway.

In my opinion people such as those who re introduced the Otters, who released the mink, etc etc, should in the future face massive fines, and long terms of imprisonment - will that ever happen of course not !
Just like the £2500 fine for no fishing license HA HA HA ! what a joke !

Regards
Ian.

You're not wrong about hiding my broken heart, Ian. In fact I've not barbel fished on the Wensum for a few seasons now, as there's so little left worth fishing for. The EA are restocking with small barbel on an annual basis and they now have their own Wensum restoration scheme ongoing, but the overriding problems affecting the river are still not being dealt with, especially the issue of run-off which is rapidly choking the river with sand and silt. Until that is dealt with all our restoration efforts are little more than sticking a finger in a dam. Regarding the chub, they are rapidly getting bigger as a result of their numbers being thinned out by otters, so that is one silver lining that is providing something challenging to fish for. Of course the long term consequences of this are worrying? And now we have signal crayfish moving in, this another problem to worry about though at least it will give the otters something else to eat!

Regarding the original release of otters, this source was entirely 'The Otter Trust' who were based at Earsham in the Waveney Valley. I very much doubt that the bloke whose project this was, specifically targeted NACA restoration projects as he was too blinkered to be aware of them. Certainly he had no knowledge of the declining condition of the fish stocks in all the East Anglian rivers. In fact I once drew this to his attention and was gobsmacked to find that he had no knowledge of it, nor any understanding of the probable consequences of introducing apex predators into failing ecosystems. To be honest I doubt that people like him are really concerned about the outcome of their actions as I suspect the underlying reason for their 'do-gooding' is the donations that it earns!

 

[Ian Grant]

You're not wrong about hiding my broken heart, Ian. In fact I've not barbel fished on the Wensum for a few seasons now, as there's so little left worth fishing for. The EA are restocking with small barbel on an annual basis and they now have their own Wensum restoration scheme ongoing, but the overriding problems affecting the river are still not being dealt with, especially the issue of run-off which is rapidly choking the river with sand and silt. Until that is dealt with all our restoration efforts are little more than sticking a finger in a dam. Regarding the chub, they are rapidly getting bigger as a result of their numbers being thinned out by otters, so that is one silver lining that is providing something challenging to fish for. Of course the long term consequences of this are worrying? And now we have signal crayfish moving in, this another problem to worry about though at least it will give the otters something else to eat!

Regarding the original release of otters, this source was entirely 'The Otter Trust' who were based at Earsham in the Waveney Valley. I very much doubt that the bloke whose project this was, specifically targeted NACA restoration projects as he was too blinkered to be aware of them. Certainly he had no knowledge of the declining condition of the fish stocks in all the East Anglian rivers. In fact I once drew this to his attention and was gobsmacked to find that he had no knowledge of it, nor any understanding of the probable consequences of introducing apex predators into failing ecosystems. To be honest I doubt that people like him are really concerned about the outcome of their actions as I suspect the underlying reason for their 'do-gooding' is the donations that it earns!

Well perhaps it's me who's way off beam in accusing those people of targeting areas for release Chris, believing they wouldn't be so stupid to release Otters in areas where they would struggle to find food, given that they would not even have the foundation of teaching from their parents in hunting prey.
It seems they found such a place of their own accord, whatever the result was inevitable once they had.
It's always been my take to allow nature to do what nature does best, give her the tools to do it, cleaner rivers, habitat restoration etc, and she will do the rest, this may take a very long time for nature to re establish populations that were brought to near extinction, but eventually the balance will be restored, any help from humans should be very very carefully thought out, before any interference is made, and those taking it upon themselves to do so without consultation from real experts in the field, and the correct permissions to do so after such consultations, should face the severest of penalties, that would deter others from even thinking about it.

What we've seen happen to the Wensum, and Gt Ouse, is what happens when the powers that be have been derelict in their duty to ensure correct proceedure is followed, and where it's not, see to it that the perpetrators are proscuted to the fullest extent of the law, that has never happened, if it had perhaps we wouldn't have been in this situation to see fish populations on these two rivers crash to the levels they have.
I wonder what effect these over populations of Otters have had on other wildlife, i know on the stretches of Loddon i fish i've found half eaten carcases of grass snakes ( a protected species by the way ), and the remains of them in Otter spraints i've found.
I've no problem with these as i believe the predation is very much on a natural level, but what is the effect on other wildlife species on the Wensum and Gt Ouse ? As with the Barbel Population not good i suspect.

The action needs to come from the highest level, I doubt what needs to be done ever will be until someone makes the government understand the serious impact of the irresponsible actions of self appointed experts, who in fact hadn't the knowledge or expertise to undertake such a project.
I'll close on that note.

Regards
Ian.

 

[Andrew Tams]

Up here in the dark north the Otters on the Swale Ure and Nidd continue to spread and are having a huge affect on the fish. I have noticed fish now shoaling up more with ever increasing reports of blanks. The sight of large berties with their organs ripped out but not much else touch is becoming a common sight even the odd double which are very rare to start with. The madness in all of this was no one thought of fish and it’s as if fish aren’t part of nature to these morons who reintroduced and now continue to protect the otters.

My club has spent £70,000 on otter fences around 3 waters money which would have gone into fish stock/protection/improvement of the water environment (for all of natures benefit) and unfortunately on 2 waters these fences arrived too late to save many 100’s of carp some of who had been around for 30 – 40 years and been caught by father’s and son’s and even grandson’s over the years. These fish were “sitting ducks†and should have been given the same rights and protections as is given to the otters but as I say the morons involved in releasing the otters only care about “some†of nature not all of it as we do.

 

[Ian Grant]

Up here in the dark north the Otters on the Swale Ure and Nidd continue to spread and are having a huge affect on the fish. I have noticed fish now shoaling up more with ever increasing reports of blanks. The sight of large berties with their organs ripped out but not much else touch is becoming a common sight even the odd double which are very rare to start with. The madness in all of this was no one thought of fish and it’s as if fish aren’t part of nature to these morons who reintroduced and now continue to protect the otters.

My club has spent £70,000 on otter fences around 3 waters money which would have gone into fish stock/protection/improvement of the water environment (for all of natures benefit) and unfortunately on 2 waters these fences arrived too late to save many 100’s of carp some of who had been around for 30 – 40 years and been caught by father’s and son’s and even grandson’s over the years. These fish were “sitting ducks†and should have been given the same rights and protections as is given to the otters but as I say the morons involved in releasing the otters only care about “some†of nature not all of it as we do.

Couldn't agree with you More Andrew.

Ian.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Over the last twenty years or more I have fished stretch of the W/Avon and never seen a Otter or any evidence of one day or night . I do know that they were introduced to the stretch I fish some years ago .
The floods of 2007 had a impact on the stocks of fish and only now returning back to what it was before the floods .
Where I fish there seems to be decent head of Barbel .
The only decline I have noticed is numbers of chub about . Weather that is down to Otters I dont know ?

Not sure where you fish Joe but there are certainly otters above Stratford

 

[Paul Deans]

I wish you were wrong about the Nidd Andrew, but you are not. My own returns for the river have deminished, finding gutted fish has increased, 3 last time out.
The challenges our river systems face of course are not from otters alone. But how big is the problem in the North, I fish the Ouse, Swale, Derwent and Nidd, its quite unusual for me to see just one otter, usually they are in pairs.
I remember 20 years ago when I first saw one, a wonderful experience, they were so rare. I cannot say I have the same feelings when I see them now.

 

[Mike Webb]

Otters are back in many rivers. Their numbers will stabilise and, in the process, many anglers will get upset about fish numbers thinning out. In many rivers we will never see the monster fish that existed in the days when huge amounts of artificial feed was introduced by anglers into an ecosystem where no apex predator existed. Tough - this was not a natural ecosystem.
Let's just hope that anglers learn to see past their narrow self-interest and see the bigger picture. The otter belongs in rivers more than a weird species like us, that likes to hunt for fish that they don't even eat - that throw them back for otters to eat. Don't blame the otters and don't blame those that put them back.
I love angling but I like to try to retain a sense of perspective.

cheers

 

[Chris Guy]

From what I can read in between the lines, otters are less of a problem where they have had a constant presence over the years, the rivers are of a good size, ie Trent, Thames, Severn, Wye or there is still a viable population of eels for them to eat.

My local rivers are pretty much screwed, be it crays, cormorants or otters. Just for example, the Ouse around Radwell on any given evening like tonight five years ago, would have anything up to a dozen or more cars parked on the roadside with conditions such as we have now. I would hazard a guess there'd be less than three tonight.