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Now tell me fish can't learn !

Darryl, as the scale of the sophistication of mind mechanisms (which is surely just a scale of intelligence) shows, and as Ian has pointed out, fish do sit in a quite lowly position of that scale, there are still however, on it, and sitting where I suspect a few anglers hadn't thought they would.
 
Two things, that scale isn't linear and many of the mechanisms don't suddenly start at some point (as I hinted at with the map formation and spawning sites). I wanted to capture the range of biological "intelligence" from very fixed, non-adaptive, craetures like may-fly all to way to adaptive, tool and symbol users (e.g. primates).
But it was just a summary, and not really a sliding scale of intelligence - while fish may **** in their environment they have evolved to do so, and really intelligent creatures (like...err..man) can really mess their environment up - which really isn't that intelligent!:eek:

As for pigeons, well a Barbel brain may actually be larger but much of it is to do with sensory perceception (olfaction, lateral line plus sight etc etc). But in animal learning experiments, pigeons tend to be able to perform more sophisticated tasks The other thing, of course is that fish, in some ways, are more alien to us than pigeeons as fish inhabit a medium we do not, and are ectotherms ("cold blooded").
 
A fish in a river knows it's environs, just as we know where the bedroom light switch is.

For fish there are a few survival determinants I guess. Eat, breed and avoid predation. That's the level of their intelligence or instincts inbred through hundreds of thousands of years, if not more.

I wonder if friendly fish, mug fish, intelligent fish, have worked out eating those nice nutritious boilies means they occassionally get caught, but it's a fair cop for a few square meals?

Maybe there are wannabe celebrity barbel? They like the attention, their picture in the paper?
 
Graham Elliott said:
When the same fish is caught twice in a day, are they just greedy ones or mentally challenged?

Graham
Click to expand...

Well Graham i think there are probably both.

Those fish that just cannot resist a second helping of a first class bait like mine :D are obviously just being very greedy, but in all honesty can yopu blame them ?

There are fish that do appear to be mentally challenged as you put it, any fish coming back for a second helping of Crooky's Chip Buttie left overs, must be devoid of any grey matter IMO :D
 
I don't think you could possibly describe a fish that is caught as one that is devoid of the ability to avoid our baits. A 'mug fish' perhaps.
Animals in the wild are opportunistic feeders. They need, mostly, to take advantage of food when it is there because they've no idea when their next meal will be. You have to look at that however, with their metabolism.
A fish that is caught twice in a day may simply be one that has for a period not had a feed, or has travelled some distance, and may still be learning to avoid baits as it is caught, to use when he can afford to be more cautious.


Damian
 
Dear All,

A quote from Paul that made me think somewhat.

"We ascribe far too much to mere fish, project much too much of ourselves on them."

One wonders what response the tackle trade would get if say all the tackle shops around the country had Pauls words on plaques placed above their shop doors?

"Hellow mate I've come to ave a butchers at those new carp rods on sale". Yes sir we have the rods you describe in stock but didn't you buy two similar rods of exactly the same length and test curve from us only six months ago?" Yes I did but they are no good now I want a pair of those new uns. Oh, and two of those new buzzers you got the ones with latching "blue" lights as well". "Have the lights in the buzzers you purchased from us six months ago gone out sir?" " Nope, but they ain't blue are they". "Is there anything else that sir requires from our angling emporium today?" "Come to think of it let me see......er......yep there is! I want a "realtree" coat, same in pair of trousers, hat, pair of gloves, socks, and bivy slippers please. Advantage Timber pattern is so last year dont ya fink?"

One wonders if like the Carlsberg add, there is a room somewhere where all the out of favour out of fashion tackle items end up covered in dust and cobwebs? I wonder if clever fish peer out from their watery homes at us saying things like, "wey up lads here comes Burt in his new clobber with his shiny new tackle. I do hope its not maggots and casters again". Anglers and their never ending new types of fishing tackle come and go, but a fish's instincts remain the same. Just as they have for millions of years. Apart from Big Billy Broken Fin that is. Now he's one clever fish.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear All,

A quote from Paul that made me think somewhat.

"We ascribe far too much to mere fish, project much too much of ourselves on them."

One wonders what response the tackle trade would get if say all the tackle shops around the country had Pauls words on plaques placed above their shop doors?

"Hellow mate I've come to ave a butchers at those new carp rods on sale". Yes sir we have the rods you describe in stock but didn't you buy two similar rods of exactly the same length and test curve from us only six months ago?" Yes I did but they are no good now I want a pair of those new uns. Oh, and two of those new buzzers you got the ones with latching "blue" lights as well". "Have the lights in the buzzers you purchased from us six months ago gone out sir?" " Nope, but they ain't blue are they". "Is there anything else that sir requires from our angling emporium today?" "Come to think of it let me see......er......yep there is! I want a "realtree" coat, same in pair of trousers, hat, pair of gloves, socks, and bivy slippers please. Advantage Timber pattern is so last year dont ya fink?"

One wonders if like the Carlsberg add, there is a room somewhere where all the out of favour out of fashion tackle items end up covered in dust and cobwebs? I wonder if clever fish peer out from their watery homes at us saying things like, "wey up lads here comes Burt in his new clobber with his shiny new tackle. I do hope its not maggots and casters again". Anglers and their never ending new types of fishing tackle come and go, but a fish's instincts remain the same. Just as they have for millions of years. Apart from Big Billy Broken Fin that is. Now he's one clever fish.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...


Lee, if i were an angler with no opinion on the subject reading your comments, and trying to come to a conclusion i'd be totally lost.

Taking then one by one, i'd agree with your comments on the tackle tarts among us, but i know some very very good anglers who are about as tarty as you could ever get, i think they know full well, their flash gear - decorated signatured rods, alarms with lights all over the place, Stainless buzzer bars and the rest of the gizmos that go with all that - will not put more fish on the bank, these are merely athestic preferences, and i think many excellent anglers that buy them, do so because - well they just like them, fair enough i say.

I do have a chuckle at some of the camo gear, but i think much the same applies here too.
I was watching Matt Hayes on TV the other night with Mick Brown, they were fishing the Gt Ouse for barbel, Matt was extolling the virtues of useing camo gear, whilst trying to crouch behind bankside foliage, he had a camo'ed T shirt on, but it was what was on his head that made me chuckle, - a white baseball cap, which was the most visable part of him.

With the sun at your back no matter what you are wearing you will be silloetted. If in front of you then camo gear may well help break up your outline helping to put a fish on the bank, personally i don't go in for it, but i wouldn't knock others that do. Again i think some just like it.

In your last paragraph though i know there was an element of tounge in cheek there - you say....

I wonder if clever fish peer out from their watery homes at us saying things like, "wey up lads here comes Burt in his new clobber with his shiny new tackle.
Crediting them with intelligence that even i wouldn't do ( tounge in cheek accepted.

and finish with.....

Anglers and their never ending new types of fishing tackle come and go, but a fish's instincts remain the same. Just as they have for millions of years.

Which i definatley disagree with, but you couldn't get two more contraditory statements given what i think is the general gist of your post.

Fishes instinct's most definatly do change, especially over millions of years, it called evolution.
There were some fish around millions of years ago, that aren't even fish anymore, and if you go back far enough, includes every land animal there is.
Some i grant you have remained exactly as they were millions of years ago,
the coelocanth being a good example, many species though have changed dramatically in that time, and much shorter time frames too.
Changes in instict and behaviour, together with intelligence arev dictated by evolutionary pressure placed up the fish, and also dictate how fast they occur.

Ian.
 
Dear Ian,

Good evening to you.

I once watched a carp angler, or should that be an angler fishing for carp, set up camp in a swim decked from head to foot in camo gear. Then proceed to erect an ex army camo tank net across the front of his swim. Once ready to actually fish he cast out three rods in excess of 80 yards towards the middle of the lake. I was mesmerised by this chaps attention to detail but chuckled to myself as to the need for all the camo pattered accoutrements. I myself wear similar garb consisting of; Danner pronghorn boots from America. Advantage Timber over trousers from Canada and Advantage Timber Sport chief jacket. But I also fish for my quarry merely feet away in often gin clear water. Do I need such garb for my fishing? Probably not as fish actually "cant" see you depending on where the sun on a clear day at any given time and in those circumstances even shadows cast do not bother fish. I rely far more on any sub surface noise my feet might make when it comes to spooking my quarry. But that’s just me.

Matt might well wear the white cap but remember the man in red Jan? The colour of his garb never stopped him catching plenty of fish so I guess I could catch more fish maybe going fishing in a string vest and under pant combo?

Are fish clever in a human context? Absolutely not. But they are quite adept at making duffers out of anglers a lot of the time.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Each to their own

Fredo corleone (John Cazale) in the godfather would say a hail mary everytime he went out fishing .

Give it a go .....:)


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

:)


Paul.
 
Darryl, Simon, or Lee,

if what you are saying is true regarding the instinctive behaviour of fish being incorrectly considered by those like myself and Ian, as indicative of the presence of an amount of intelligence, however small, can you try to explain to me how the relationship of instinctive behaviour and behaviour which is prompted by new introductions to their environments works please?
Where before in the life of a barbel has it, or it's parents, gained the instinct to mouth a bait with the express purpose of finding if it is attached to anything. Surely without an answer to this question and those like it, how sure can you really be that the behaviour demonstrated is only instinctive?


Damian
 
Damian
I did not say Barbel is purely instinctive as I placed them in that area where classical conditioning and operant conditioning is evidenced. In short fish have the neural complexity for classical and operant conditioning, and this has been verfied through (scientific) animal learning experiments.

Put simply, classical conditioning is the Pavlov's Dog scenario, where they learn to associate a stimulus with an immediate scenario. This can be positive or negative. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

For example, some fish learn to associate the sound of bait being introduced with the availability of food. A negative instance being where the sound of a lead hitting the water surface is negatively associated with being captured. Such learning can modify or utilise instictive behaviour. If feeding is an instinctive behaviour, it can be modified so that they prefer to feed on a given food source (the basis of prebaiting).

There are some good examples of Barbel learning negative associations (operant conditioning) in Tony Miles's' Elite Barbel. For example where pods of large Barbel spook away from large beds of hemp and corn.
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear Ian,

Good evening to you.

I once watched a carp angler, or should that be an angler fishing for carp, set up camp in a swim decked from head to foot in camo gear. Then proceed to erect an ex army camo tank net across the front of his swim. Once ready to actually fish he cast out three rods in excess of 80 yards towards the middle of the lake. I was mesmerised by this chaps attention to detail but chuckled to myself as to the need for all the camo pattered accoutrements. I myself wear similar garb consisting of; Danner pronghorn boots from America. Advantage Timber over trousers from Canada and Advantage Timber Sport chief jacket. But I also fish for my quarry merely feet away in often gin clear water. Do I need such garb for my fishing? Probably not as fish actually "cant" see you depending on where the sun on a clear day at any given time and in those circumstances even shadows cast do not bother fish. I rely far more on any sub surface noise my feet might make when it comes to spooking my quarry. But that’s just me.

Matt might well wear the white cap but remember the man in red Jan? The colour of his garb never stopped him catching plenty of fish so I guess I could catch more fish maybe going fishing in a string vest and under pant combo?

Are fish clever in a human context? Absolutely not. But they are quite adept at making duffers out of anglers a lot of the time.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...

Now i agree with all of that :)

Ian.
 
Thanks Darryl.
From what I can make out classical conditioning might be a passed down instinctive behaviour pattern and operant conditioning (I have to say I started to read the link before and got lost really) seems to be the ability to make basic changes to behaviour on account of new experiences, as per the example you used. Is that basically right?

Where before in the life of a barbel has it, or it's parents, gained the instinct to mouth a bait with the express purpose of finding if it is attached to anything. Surely without an answer to this question and those like it, how sure can you really be that the behaviour demonstrated is only instinctive?

Ignoring the reference to instinct there Darryl, hasn't the above example passed on the scale of the sophistication of mind mechanisms that of operant conditioning? Surely in that example, operant conditioning would lie in the fish avoiding a boilie altogether, as the instance in 'Elite Barbel'?

Forgive my many questions and going back over old ground, I will get there in the end.


Regards


Damian
 
Damian Kimmins said:
From what I can make out classical conditioning might be a passed down instinctive behaviour pattern and operant conditioning (I have to say I started to read the link before and got lost really) seems to be the ability to make basic changes to behaviour on account of new experiences, as per the example you used. Is that basically right?
Click to expand...
Not quite!. Instinctive behaviour is what is passed down, and is the behaviours that the fish is born with, even it does not use that full range of behaviours initially, or even ever.
Classical conditioning can modify when that behaviour can occur. Operant conditioning is an even more sophisticated form of individual learning.

Damian Kimmins said:
Where before in the life of a Barbel has it, or it's parents, gained the instinct to mouth a bait with the express purpose of finding if it is attached to anything. Surely without an answer to this question and those like it, how sure can you really be that the behaviour demonstrated is only instinctive?
Click to expand...
There is some very ambiguous research that suggests some individual learning (i.e. what a fish has learnt during its lifetime), may alter some genes and so pass that down to descendents, it is not widely accepted in scientific circles. So this example is infact the medication of instinctive feeding behaviours through individual learning (for example classical and operant conditioning) by the fish. That might include, via operant conditioning, copying behaviour of other fish.

Damian Kimmins said:
Ignoring the reference to instinct there Darryl, hasn't the above example passed on the scale of the sophistication of mind mechanisms that of operant conditioning? Surely in that example, operant conditioning would lie in the fish avoiding a boilie altogether, as the instance in 'Elite Barbel'?
Click to expand...
You need to break down the observed behaviour and perceived scenario into smaller chunks. The examples in "Elite Barbel" I was thinking of relates to Tony's rite of passage with sweetcorn. At first standard sweetcorn (unflavoured yellow) bought him bites. The fish then learnt to associate this with danger. So he moved onto flavoured red corn (changing two perceptual stimuli - the flavour and colour). When that tailed off he changed the flavour again. When that tailed off he changed the baiting scenario to a few baits. Along the way he moved to hair mounted rather than hook mounted. All these small changes bought some kind of success, but the fish quickly learnt to associate them with danger. The limitations in the fish intelligence (there I have used the word!) are highlighted by the fact that such a small change from strawberry flavoured red corn to raspberry flavoured red corn bought some success (even if short lived). The fish take time to generalise over the full range of stimulus-response (bait-caught) spectrum. One of the reasons that small tweaks to a once working, now not, fishing scenario sometimes work. By making small changes you slow down the learning rate. One of the reasons why many old-hands suggest making the smallest change to your approach to get a bite. If you make large changes you are helping the fish to make large learning changes.
Of course, learning is also slowed where the instinctive feeding behaviour is compromised by a large stock. The examples I used above relate to the Great Ouse with mature fish in a low stock scenario. Where you have 50 Barbel in a swim, and in many swims, the competition for food slows the learning process.
 
Dear Damian,

Good morning to you.

I'm pretty certain like me you have lots of information on all things pertaining to the biology of fish. Reams and reams of the stuff I should expect. A lot of it is very interesting from a factual/technical point of view with "some" of the information relating to fish's sensory organs that "might" help anglers catch fish? A lot of it however simply has no bearing when it comes to the contest between angler and fish.

Would you agree that anglers who become proficiant at catching their quarry have done so because they have learned intimate knowledge of their chosen species natural behavior amid its natural environment?

I'm off fishing now hoping to catch some very clever grayling.

Regards,

Lee.
 
I think good anglers don't just know how to catch those 'more difficult to catch' fish BUT when. Understanding feeding paterns, areas they frequent at any one time, seasonal changes etc will all play a part. That is why some fish appear to outwit numerous anglers only to be caught by the simplest of methods, baits etc at another time. A very hungry fish WILL get caught on a bait, rig etc it has seen time and time again putting paid to the argument of intelligent learning IMO.

Darren.
 
Darren Smith said:
I think good anglers don't just know how to catch those 'more difficult to catch' fish BUT when. Understanding feeding paterns, areas they frequent at any one time, seasonal changes etc will all play a part. That is why some fish appear to outwit numerous anglers only to be caught by the simplest of methods, baits etc at another time. A very hungry fish WILL get caught on a bait, rig etc it has seen time and time again putting paid to the argument of intelligent learning IMO.

Darren.
Click to expand...

Tend to agree with Darren on most.

In my experience, there are probably Four major modes of feeding ...Starving, Snacking, Opportunist and Fullfilled.

In the Starving mode, back to basic scavenger instincts of survival, to where original or any learned caution skills are dispelled with regarding rigs, line thickness, bare hooks and food choice, etc.

Snacking, to where a barbel is, not starving, but wants a meal and has a choice from various swims and different offerings in each, like a street of varying cafes and Chinese, Indian, Italian restaurants. Because it is not that hungry or starving, it can cruise around and has time to apply caution to make its choice.

Opportunist For travelling fish or lazy ones that are not prepared to go looking much. The food supply is from a mobile cafe that comes to your area out of the blue, or a static layby van that you find on a remote area out in the sticks somewhere. Not much caution applied here unless it **** food!

Fullfilled Fed already, Full up to the hilt or in a semi-dormant state or asleep, to where the fish will show no interest at all or feels sick at just looking at any bait etc.

I am sure that the wiser fish have learnt over the years after being caught over and over again on the same bait. However, they accept that there are risks involved in picking up easy found food, and will try their best to get away with it without being hooked. Some are cleverer than others, just like us!
Again, not much different to us humans!

I think some intellegence comes into this in knowing that anglers bait is easily obtainable and found, and probably more likable than some natural stuff. Because they are returned to play another day, they might know accept this also! It is a game of cat and mouse at one trying to outwit the other. Sometimes the fish comes out on top, sometimes it slips up now and again.
 
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