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Now tell me fish can't learn !

Crooky,
I do think my methods work, but comparing them to others who had a very bad season, i believe the descrepancy is not so much that my methods are vastly superior, i think it's that others have been getting it badly wrong.

The barbel because i believe of reduced competition are feeding late. Most have been leaving early, some because they always do they tell me, and some because they are exasperated with the lack of i.e virtually nil early action.

Others i believe their approach is wrong, they are fishing late enough but don't seem to be getting the action, i don't examine their methods but something can't be right.

One other chap using plain old meat was staying late but had put in 70 hours for 0 fish, I don't like to sound like i'm critisising people methods so i don't interfere - unless i know them very well for fear of insulting their ability
( cocky git coming over here telling me i'm doing it all wrong ! ) you know what i mean, but if asked i'll readily help if i can.
This chap i do know but not that well i felt comfortable pointing out what i thought was wrong - which was obvious to me.

Eventually i decided to strike up a conversation and angled our chat over to how he was doing - knowing how bad it was.
He said i don't know what i'm doing wrong Ian, i'm using the same methods as i have on ** **** that have caught me plenty of Barbel, i could accept that if i knew that everybody else was blanking but i see you catching so it must be something i'm doing .
I said yes you are getting it wrong, telling him i thought what was present here were a population of mostly doubles that no doubt have seen an anglers hook many times, that the method of putting a feeder over their heads every 1/2 hour was spooking them, every time they get a bit of confidence to come back and inspect his bait - bosh another one goes out.
Put a bit of bait out, with your bait a few feet upstream of the freebies, AND LEAVE IT ! for the rest of the session if you have to.
I didn't think for a minute he'd listen, but he did !
Result - his next 5 sessions saw him land 6 doubles, unfortunatly this was the back end of autumn, and he pulled off to try another venue, i think he came back but it had got much harder when the cold weather started kicking in.

My approach is pretty simple without going into the nitty gritty :p

Find 'em, don't spook 'em, and give them nice things to eat, and you'll load the odds massively in your favour, basic stuff we all know works but it's amazing how some get so entrenched in one method instead of thinking out whats in front of them. The technicalities are just putting the finishing touches to load those odds a bit more in my favour.

On the subject of pies and garages, i always stop by the local garages to pick up a pie to eat while im fishing but they've always sold out !!:mad:
i just can't think why ? :rolleyes:
 
Hi Ian.

So I would not be surprised that your skill has probably caught you more than half of the barbel population of the stretches you fish. That's worrying.

And makes the point about the decline in numbers over the past few years.

Graham
 
Graham,

So Ian has caught around 17 fish from this particular stretch this season, taking into account re-captures, not sure where I have seen any evidence that suggests the population is only 30 or so fish, or what it was until recent years??

Maybe you have some evidence regards the past or present population in this stretch??

The subject of this thread is that some of us acknowledge that Barbel can learn and therefore may have wised up, bearing that in mind, evidence can not be based on catch reports.
 
There are definitely two reasons for a drop in catch rates.

1. less fish to catch
2 the fish are getting harder to catch.

The trouble is that it is difficult to ascertain which reason is relevant to a piece of water in the short term as most anglers are slow on the uptake and fail to alter their approach until either they are catching almost nothing or someone points out the error of their ways.

That some rivers are in decline is quite apparent, be that due to pollution, predation or whatever. But other rivers are fine and dandy yet the catches are in steep decline. Like Ian and a few others I have spoken to, I also believe that barbel have had a major leap forward in their learning and have just wised up.

Going back as to whether barbel learn or become conditioned.

If a barbel just relies on conditioning then it will 'learn' that a line pointing at 45 degrees from a lead to the surface spells danger. It will enter your swim, see that line and react accordingly.

However, how do you explain barbel entering a swim, swimming around looking for line and either retreating or, if the find none, feeding. It happens and has been observed countless times. That, I believe is definite learning.

I could go on but the birds need feeding.:)
 
Crooky, my point is that the longer anglers put markedly reduced catches down to fish suddenly getting clever after being caught for continuously for the past 15 years the longer true answers and solutions will be in coming or being sought.

Having fished local rivers for many years, having been out on the banks on average 4 times a week, I think I have a pretty good picture of fish populations and catch rates given the multitude of methods employed.

Now I understand the reality of Club waters where the emphasis is on member numbers often equal fish caught, and the need to try and protect that, but Aliastair Campbell probably hasn't enough spin for this one! - What we are seeing is SIGNIFICANT numbers of anglers, certainly in the Thames valley areas saying something is not right. There has been numerous articles in the popular press saying the same elsewhere.

They are not all muppets

Not just barbel, have the massive shoals of bream now become super intelligent? dace, roach as well?

I accept that fish can wise up a bit, but that's not the root cause.


Of course some anglers have had an OK season. But in general, overall, majority wise. It's pretty awful and it's down to depleted fish numbers.

The sooner it's accepted, recognised, made a serious issue the sooner remedial action can begin and advance for the future.

Graham
 
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Graham Elliott said:
Hi Ian.

So I would not be surprised that your skill has probably caught you more than half of the barbel population of the stretches you fish. That's worrying.

And makes the point about the decline in numbers over the past few years.

Graham
Click to expand...

I've long been aware Graham, of a declining population on the Loddon, i've been noticing it for perhaps 4 to 5 years.

I'm also fairly sure ( maybe hoping is a better word ) that what we are seeing is a natural cycle. This is not to be confused with whats happening on other rivers.

between the late 90's and early 2000's there was some truly prolific sport to be had on the stretches of Loddon if fish, i suppose it was around 2004 that i started to sit up and take notice of a change that seemed to be occurring.
I started to notice the stamp of barbel i was catching was getting bigger, by 2006, i couldn't help but notice that the smaller barbel were much fewer in numbers, but in fact they were still there or many of them, they were just getting bigger, a few recaptures i had ( over years ) i was able to recognise fish that i'd caught in previous years that were now much bigger.
Still the apparent number of all barbel seemed to be on the decline from the numbers that seemed to around in the late 90's at least on one stretch i was regularly fishing.
The stretch i've been concentrating on this year, in this period of the mid 2000's, still seemed to have a high proportion of singles compared to larger fish, - though big fish were there as well you know ;)
On that previous stretch it seems, from a few sessions i've had there this year, and from what others have told me there seems to be a few more smaller barbel around, - one angler told me he'd caught a fish of around 2 pounds.

What worries me paticularly about the stretch i've been fishing this year is the reduction of singles appears to have been sudden and dramatic, i've got no answers as to whats going on, i'm hoping that these fish have just gone walkabout somewhere, but it's worrying.
There is dare i say it the issue of Otters which have been seen on this stretch, and i've seen on many of the fish - MANY OF THEM - with areas of flesh on their flanks which have been stripped of scales, possible evidence of their encounters with them.
Have the smaller, younger, - not so wised up fish fallen prey to them ? i don't know, i haven't found any evidence of kills, so i can't be definate in that assumption.
There are no lakes adjacent to this stretch, so if they are there, they must be hunting in the river.

The situation on that stretch mirrors pretty much the situation on the other in recent years, the diffence being what seemed to take several years on one stretch, seems to have happened over the course of one season ( last ) to the next ( this year ) which concerns me i have to admit.

We shall have to wait and see how next season, maybe even a few more, unfolds before i start panicking, really my concerns are only about that one stretch, elswhere on the Loddon, i'm pretty sure we are seeing natural population swings. Lets hope i'm correct....... I love this river !!

Ian.
 
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Refering to your post 66 to Crooky Graham, my though thoughts very much parrell yours.
Yes i believe barbel can wise up and show a degree of intelligence that can make them maddenly hard to catch.
Like you though i can't believe - when talking other rivers not just the Loddon, that is soley the answer to the cause of anglers catches going through the floor, the fact that some anglers seem unable to adapt to the situation and plug away in the same old style they always have is irrelavant.

I believe that the biggest problem besseting our rivers, and possibly it applies to the Loddon as well, is one of fry recruitment.

The Barbel are still spawning and are being seen, the marks on the females from scouring out redds, are also apparent at the start of every season.

It seems as though the young fish just aren't getting through, in any appreciable number.

The other factor that concerns me very much, and i know Graham has blown this trumpet load and clear, but few seem to be listening, is one of sewage pollution, the gerneral stuff thats in it is bad enough, but provided that it's not going into the river in massive quantities will degrade and break down, regarding that it's the levels of the 2007 floods that see the irrevocable damage that it can cause.
It's actually what you can't see or smell that concern me most, thats the hormones, and the chemicals that mimick hormones, in that it's ever present and relentless.

Big double figure barbel i believe are females, possibly not all but most.
This may and probably does apply to most species - am i correct here ?
I suspect someone may disagree :p

Is the big fish phenomena that we've been wittnessing over the last 15 years
due in part to the presence of hormones in our waters, creating an over population of female fish.
The fact that possibly anglers baits, warmer winters, etc may be seeing these fish reach prodigeous weights is irrelavant.
This may in part be why - at least i am - seeing larger numbers of big fish, but much fewer smaller fish, and overall a slowly declining population.

Provided there are still enough males around to provoke females into shedding their spawn, spawning will still take place, but in the long term this senario will have very damaging efects. Firstly the gene pool will become ever smaller as a result of fewer males introducing their genes to the pool, leading to all sorts of genetic diseases affecting fish populations.
I'm no scientist, and i can't possibly answer this question but i'll throw it in anyway ..... We already know that the ingestion of female hormones can make males sterile, but are there i wonder any other affects ? is it possible in the case of fish, that it could affect the males milt, and whilst not always 'sterilising' it, damages it in some way ? with the possible result that fry that hatch from eggs fertilised by 'damaged' milt have a much lower survival rate.
If this were true it would go someway i think to providing the answers to what appears to be occuring on many rivers including the Loddon.

Ian.
 
Ian. You are spot on in my opinion.

As I have posted previously, as per EA reports, damage caused to milt and eggs through introduced hormones will prevent them germinating.

I have always been led to believe that all barbel over 8lb are female. And if they are not producing viable ova, we have a problem. As per the report, the same hormone introduction can feminise males.

The same reason could also account for other species problems.

Graham

Added. Ian
I had 2 small barbel about 1lb, 4 years ago from the Loddon triangle bit, they were both dye marked EA introduced fish
 
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Very interesting thread, I'm not sure the old board would have referenced Darwin - viva evolution!

As a good example of fish learning I witnessed last season;

There's some lakes up the road from me and I walk up there every other day to see what's been caught etc. Some are no fishing and some do allow fishing.

Out of one of the 'no fishing' ponds reserved for wildlife, or more accurately dogs to splash about in, a 30lb mirror carp was caught (don't ask there's some right scrotes fishing these lakes).

It was transferred to the fishing pond 15 yards away across the pathway (they are connected by channels so no risk of disease). The 30lb carp then proceeded to get caught pretty much every week for two months to different people, skilled and not particularly skilled. I would have caught it of course but I deemed it, ahem, too easy to try.:rolleyes:

Then it stopped getting caught and was caught just once more that season. It definitely learnt how to avoid getting caught through it's very recent experience of actually getting caught.

The lake is hard and this season it's been caught once, as have most of the fish when they slip up, and everything back to normal now. It wised up.

cheers, simon
 
My experience is the same as yours Ian on the Loddon this year.

I have had two singles all year. The rest were doubles with the biggest fish I caught twice.

I don't really bother with fishing in the daytime as my experience has been that the fish feed later and later into the night as the season moves on. I had one fish in daylight (well 7.30am) and the rest were 10pm to 3am, getting later and later.

I've only been fishing the loddon for 4 years so I haven't really experienced any prolific periods, but I don't see any young fish there or coming through on a particular stretch I fish at the mo.

I do see the fish wising up for sure though and at times the river is a complete headbanger. I'm almost glad of the poor weather as it gives a sanity break!

The difficulty is two fold: increasingly tricky fish and fewer of them.

The real reasons for the fewer fish are undoubtedly numerous and I am not qualified to comment which is the biggest risk factor.

cheers, simon
 
A Bit Late in the Day!

Graham Elliott said:
Ian. You are spot on in my opinion.

As I have posted previously, as per EA reports, damage caused to milt and eggs through introduced hormones will prevent them germinating.

I have always been led to believe that all barbel over 8lb are female. And if they are not producing viable ova, we have a problem. As per the report, the same hormone introduction can feminise males.

The same reason could also account for other species problems.
Click to expand...
Graham Elliott said:
I cannot believe that you are just bringing this subject up!

This has been common knowledge for over 20+ years and has in the past, and is still being pursued by the ex SAA/ACA and now the Angling Trust/Fish Legal.
Many have previously ignored what has been said in the past on the subject and you are now seeing and reaping the consequences of the neglect to pay attention, listen and to support the SAA.
The untold number of 'Threats to Angling' are well listed on the old SAA site http://www.saauk.org/

THREATS TO ANGLING
Lack of anglers’ involvement in the running of clubs and societies, sitting on Consultatives and RFACS and helping to fund the sport.

Continuing pollution of waterways – join the ACA.

Increasing water eutrophication from phosphates, nitrates and other farmland “wastes”.

Endocrine disrupters introduced to water tables from sewage treatment plants and domestic and industrial waste.

Increased water abstraction and declining water quality.

Continuing calls for 'channel improvement' and investment in land drainage to reduce flooding and allow building on flood plains.

Water transfer schemes between river catchments.

Increased navigation on inland waterways, particularly with unsuitable craft.

Increasing fish predation by cormorants, otters and signal crayfish.

An escalation in fish kills and disease, partly through the relaxation of import controls.

Increasing illegal fish movements and fish stealing.

Litter problems from anglers and non-anglers alike.

Increasing anti-angling activity and propaganda.

Waters regularly being lost to angling.

Political infighting between angling groups.

The lack of funding from central government to match that available to other sports
Click to expand...
 
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Colin Gordon said:
Ian, My reply was in response to the fact that many people these days seem to believe that animals all animals have a similar thought process to ours (humans).
Which it is commonly accepted amongst scientists that they don't....

Of course they (animals) do have the capability to think and therefore make decisions based on their powers of thought but most animals survival is based purely and solely around instinct best explanation of this is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

We as humans tend not to rely on instinct rather using 'intelligence' instead (power of thought).

What we as anglers try to do is understand and outwit our chosen quarry.
By using our intelligence to learn from situations we come across.
Like everything in life some learn better than others or use the knowledge to greater or lesser effect.

A true sign of intelligence is the ability to communicate, an area which fish are severely lacking in.
Yes a fish scurrying past another fishes nose is a good indicator of danger BUT its not exactly a hard fact to deduce.
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Hi colin in all the side tracking i forgot to rely to your post.

I agree, mostly anyway with what you say here, your last comment,....

A true sign of intelligence is the ability to communicate, an area which fish are severely lacking in.

Well yes, any creature displaying the ability to communicate with it's own kind must be displaying at least a measure of intelligence, - bee's refering to a previous post.

I don't think that this is the only indication of intelligence though, and again i'm talking degrees here, obviously creatures capable of communication, - by methods we might recognise at any rate, are displaying more than just rudimentary intelligence, but moving down the scale we find creatures displaying in my opinion intelligent traits. These may be creatures of far lower intelligence than others, but never the less it is intelligence.

It all started with a seed many many millions of years ago, for some creatures like us it has evolved, and still is evolving into very high intelligence, some creatures, many that have been around for millions of years, still haven't figured out how to water that seed, and display the very lowest kind of intelligence, there is of course everything else in between.
This i what i mean by intelligence is a matter of degrees.

Ian.
 
Graham, Ian, etc...

My comments were referring to Ian's post regarding a particular stretch of the Loddon, where the current hard evidence, i.e. fish surveys, do not show a decline. The situation on other stretches and rivers differs greatly I am sure and I would not like to generalise, I did in fact acknowledge the issues on the Upper Thames in my original replies to Beany's posts.

You have a point Graham regarding other species, however there has been a massive boom in population and size of Perch and Pike which could be related.

In fact a recent survey on another river in the area showed great numbers of juvenile Roach and Dace but very few adults............
 
Ray,
I think Graham has - several times in past BFW threads, and has also communicated his concern about these issues to local clubs, and repairian owners, and also the Loddon Valley consultative, requesting of local clubs to take note and report to him any visual signs of sewage matter they see.

I have brought it up before, as i recall the last occasion on the old BFW on the Trent pollution thread, and on one or two ocassions before that.

I first became aware of this issue back in the 90's when i read an article on the subject in the angling press.

Personally i believe people, you, me, and many many others through organisations past and present - morally shouldn't have to push the issue, that is what i believe the Enviroment Agency is for.

My issues aren't particularly with the EA in this respect, but more with succsesive goverments, which have refused or neglected to provide funding for reasearch, and most importantly further to that, making it possible to prevent these pollution issues, from occuring in the first place.
They would say mostly placing the blame on governments that have gone before that they don't have the money to provide the funds needed.

In my opinion it is they, all of them over the years who have allowed a situation to develop which has seen our country and it's economy being drained of resources, the result being if the NHS, Education, Law and order,
the armed forces, not being able to recieve proper funding, the EA stand no chance.

People like yourself Ray get my undying admiration, probably having in your case spent 2/3rds of your life ( am i about correct there ? ) in fighting to prevent the destruction of river habitats.

Somewhat shamefully i admit to not having your enthusiasm, and determination.

I also believe pessimistically that though angling organisations may occasionaly win some battles, they will never win the war.
Thats a terrible statement to make, but if i'm being honest about my innermost thoughts, i have to make it.

The needs of our rapidly expanding population will always take precedence over the needs of the enviroment, that if we don't look after one the other will never survive, i think you'll never convince the powers that be of.

Ian.
 
Ian Crook said:
Graham, Ian, etc...

My comments were referring to Ian's post regarding a particular stretch of the Loddon, where the current hard evidence, i.e. fish surveys, do not show a decline. The situation on other stretches and rivers differs greatly I am sure and I would not like to generalise, I did in fact acknowledge the issues on the Upper Thames in my original replies to Beany's posts.

You have a point Graham regarding other species, however there has been a massive boom in population and size of Perch and Pike which could be related.

In fact a recent survey on another river in the area showed great numbers of juvenile Roach and Dace but very few adults............
Click to expand...

Crooky,
There has never been to my knowledge a fish survey on the stretch of Loddon i've been fishing this year, there was some talk two years ago of the EA installing a fry refuge, but that never transpired or hasn't yet anyway.

Ian.
 
Interesting discussion.
Unfortunately I currently have not the time to give a more thoughtful response.

Can I suggest (as a someone who makes (part of) his living in research into the nature of cognitive systems), that you forget the argument over whether you class fsih as intelligent (or otherwise) as pointless anthropomorphism.

A few years ago (well many) I was doing some work on comparative complexity of cognitive designs and where they mapped onto the animal kingdom. A highly simplified summary is given in the image below.

Fish sort of inhabit that space around classical and operant conditioning (somewhere around the lizard positioning) - environmental and evolutionary (species) pressures push them one way or another up or down this scale. But their overall place is dependent upon the neural complexity of their CNS (brain plus more) and the relative size of various brain areas (a a lot of fish brain is perceptual processing systems).
1903518ecb4ed43ca2f5957df7e794e7c291d7a.JPG

If that were not the case prebaiting would not work, nor would you see rig-shyness (to name but two phenomena)
 
Darryl Davis said:
Can I suggest (as a someone who makes (part of) his living in research into the nature of cognitive systems), that you forget the argument over whether you class fsih as intelligent (or otherwise) as pointless anthropomorphism.


Of course you can Darryl :D
But i wouldn't listen to you because i don't think it's a pointless anthriposi :mad: anthropot :mad: :mad: - that word you used - at all.

I find it all very interesting actually so there !:p
Click to expand...
 
Ian Grant said:
Darryl Davis said:
Of course you can Darryl :D
But i wouldn't listen to you because i don't think it's a pointless anthriposi :mad: anthropot :mad: :mad: - that word you used - at all.

I find it all very interesting actually so there !:p
Click to expand...
I too find it jolly interesting, which is one of the reasons I sometimes work in cognitive systems. :cool:

I do think fish can display intelligent behaviour, but that is fine distinction from saying are they intelligent. It is more about saying they have this degree of cognitive complexity, capable a certain level of mental activity, and that for fish, and Barbel specifically is (probably) at the level of operant conditioning.
We are not looking at a species capable of tool manufacture or symbol use or even tool use (tho' the way some fish managing to transfer hooks to weed or debris borders on that), and if they are capable of map formation (e.g. need to be in a specific type of environment for breeding etc.) it in terms something very alien to our use of maps.
Click to expand...
 
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