Night fishing.

[Neil Smart]

I'm not disputing what you say at all Neil. I am merely wondering why night fishing should be deemed a major culprit and suffer a ban while daylight fishing is left untouched. I know you say about the barbel needing some free time and they will only generally feed at night on some waters but equally there are other waters where they only feed in the daytime, due in part to the nocturnal nature of otters. How would a compromise between night and day angling not work for everyone?

I don't see that in some waters Barbel will only feed at night or day in others, I am sure that all Barbel will feed both day and night to a certain extent, Prey species feel safer at night and if allowed to feed and move freely it will be a better environment for them to thrive, that is why I consider night fishing to be detrimental, but of course you have to consider the type of River, night fishing on the Lower Severn would be less impactive than the Teme say.

So in this regard sensible fishery management would be key, but just how many that might be qualified to make such decisions in a Club I guess would be a rarity, certainly almost nil I would guess in BAA . But their primary role is match fees and specimen anglers matter little as I was reminded by the Sec.

To be frank I would not only curtail night fishing on rivers smaller that are showing a decline, but would advocate limiting all angling until it recovers.

The Otter is perhaps a convenient scapegoat, perhaps we need to look to ourselves too?

 

[Steve Double]

I've got a vague recollection of reading something recently by a scientist-type which suggested the barbel's propensity to feed at night was linked to the increased movement of caddis fly larvae for them to feed on. No idea if that's indeed true.

 

[Brian Whyte]

I've got a vague recollection of reading something recently by a scientist-type which suggested the barbel's propensity to feed at night was linked to the increased movement of caddis fly larvae for them to feed on. No idea if that's indeed true.

Nah its the kilo's of pellets us afterdark anglers pile in Steve

Tight lines Brian

 

[Joe Fletcher]

I don't see that in some waters Barbel will only feed at night or day in others, I am sure that all Barbel will feed both day and night to a certain extent, Prey species feel safer at night and if allowed to feed and move freely it will be a better environment for them to thrive, that is why I consider night fishing to be detrimental, but of course you have to consider the type of River, night fishing on the Lower Severn would be less impactive than the Teme say.

So in this regard sensible fishery management would be key, but just how many that might be qualified to make such decisions in a Club I guess would be a rarity, certainly almost nil I would guess in BAA . But their primary role is match fees and specimen anglers matter little as I was reminded by the Sec.

To be frank I would not only curtail night fishing on rivers smaller that are showing a decline, but would advocate limiting all angling until it recovers.

The Otter is perhaps a convenient scapegoat, perhaps we need to look to ourselves too?

Neil I dont understand your logic to some of your points of view ?
You make the point about Barbel being a prey species and would feel safer at night ?
Otters come out at night and look for prey ? So do you think that Barbel feel safer at night and are not aware that predaters also feed at night ?
Why would curtailing night angling on smaller rivers help the recovery ?

As long as Anglers return fish properly when caught ,Then what difference would it make if they are caught in daylight hours or at night ? Either on a big river or a small river ?
We all know that that Barbel will feed in the day when we get rain and the levels start to rise and the water gets coloured ? So would it be any more stressfull for Barbel when in daylight and there is a flood on and pick up a piece of meat only to find there is a hook attached ?

Do Barbel feel more stressed when caught at night than when caught in the day ?
I think what ever time of day or night they are hooked and caught they are not going to feel any different ?

 

[Alex Gowney]

I can assure you Neil that angling pressure was most certainly not the cause of the barbel decline on the Windrush because they were very seldom fished for. Nor was the Cherwell ever a really hammered river. I can't agree at all with your theory that angling pressure leads to a decline in stocks. It may make the fishing harder but how does it account for fish disappearing? As for the otter just being a convenient scapegoat, if only! As a regular on both the Cherwell and the Windrush I (along with others) can categorically state that two major events occurred just prior to the current decline, or near enough wipe out. One was the 2007 floods, the other was the sudden appearance of otters. I agree the otter cannot shoulder all the blame and that they are just a part of many problems, but they are a major part, not just scapegoats. I simply cannot agree that angling itself has played a major part in the serious decline of many rivers. Especially as Joe says if fish are handled correctly.

 

[Paul Curtis]

I know I have probably said this before, but for many; myself included, a night ban is almost a winter fishing ban. I would urge anyone who is a BAA member to fill in the questionaire.

Paul

 

[Alex Gowney]

I know I have probably said this before, but for many; myself included, a night ban is almost a winter fishing ban. I would urge anyone who is a BAA member to fill in the questionaire.

Paul

Fully agree Paul and I have completed the feedback form. Barford is another club whose night ban is virtually a winter ban because they almost always have matches on Saturdays and Sundays, or used to anyway. I simply cannot see the problem with allowing fishing till midnight in the summer and 10 pm in the winter. The big problem is that most club committees are made up of match anglers who only tolerate barbel anglers because they need their fees. BAA do not police the night ban very effectively and there have been instances of anglers turning up to fish at dusk at Severn Stoke and getting their permits checked by the bailiff who was obviously going to turn blind eye to their night fishing. I have also had my permit checked in the afternoon by a BAA bailiff near Stratford, fished until midnight, then walked past the bailiff, who was still fishing, on my way back to the car. Not sure if this is just the odd lenient bailiff or if BAA realise that if they pee off too many barbel anglers then revenue will drop.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Neil I dont understand your logic to some of your points of view ?
You make the point about Barbel being a prey species and would feel safer at night ?
Otters come out at night and look for prey ? So do you think that Barbel feel safer at night and are not aware that predaters also feed at night ?
Why would curtailing night angling on smaller rivers help the recovery ?

As long as Anglers return fish properly when caught ,Then what difference would it make if they are caught in daylight hours or at night ? Either on a big river or a small river ?
We all know that that Barbel will feed in the day when we get rain and the levels start to rise and the water gets coloured ? So would it be any more stressfull for Barbel when in daylight and there is a flood on and pick up a piece of meat only to find there is a hook attached ?

Do Barbel feel more stressed when caught at night than when caught in the day ?
I think what ever time of day or night they are hooked and caught they are not going to feel any different ?

Are you mad Joe You can't seriously expect Neil to apply common sense or logic to a subject that involves one of his pet hates Neil selectively avoids any points others raise that he doesn't have answers to, or just waffles them away...check out all his 'non replies' to repeated points from Alex. And lord knows what he was on about in reply to my post. You are a rascal Neil...and your prejudices are on display again. Go get your bivvy out and have a nice relaxing time by a decent, peaceful carp lake...I can give you some boilies

Smile Neil, it's only fishing

Cheers, Dave.,

 

[Neil Smart]

Hi Joe,
The overall point I am making is that, I am talking mainly smaller Rivers here, is that through angling pressure the Barbel will be less inclined to stay in such rivers and would prefer the safety of the larger Rivers. Really Day or Night angling pressure would be much the same, but at least with there being a night ban on most rivers we are allowing them a certain amount of rest to sustain themselves. And yes prey creatures including Barbel have this instinct to feed at night because they do feel safer, it is not a new thing but something that has been a factor for millions of years, ask Dave

It's not really a case of good or bad handling, once a Barbel has been caught it will trigger a sense of caution, or perhaps if the pressure is such then they might leave and not return to what was a safe area for them but rather a lesson learned that spells danger.

Barbel like no other freshwater species, eel apart will travel long distances so are well equipped to 'up sticks' so to speak.

Why do you think WUF limit 3 rods to a beat? I think you will find it would be more profitable for them if they allowed more rods, but the forefront of their thinking is conservation.

I don't really know why Rivers suddenly become devoid of Barbel anymore than anyone else, OK we can all point to the Otter, but as you have said in the past where is the evidence? It is probably a huge factor Otter, but not the whole story maybe, I suppose Barbel a more likely to be killed in a small river than a larger river where other prey would be on the menu. So the Otter problem plus Angling pressure might be a double consideration for Mr & Mrs B before they settle down.

Safety in numbers that's what prey creatures prefer.

Hopefully I am making some sense, although I feel it's like pushing water uphill at times, I guess the only folk that might have a answer are those that study such things for a living, and i guess they might struggle, that is the enigma that is Barbel I suppose.

 

[Neil Smart]

Are you mad Joe You can't seriously expect Neil to apply common sense or logic to a subject that involves one of his pet hates Neil selectively avoids any points others raise that he doesn't have answers to, or just waffles them away...check out all his 'non replies' to repeated points from Alex. And lord knows what he was on about in reply to my post. You are a rascal Neil...and your prejudices are on display again. Go get your bivvy out and have a nice relaxing time by a decent, peaceful carp lake...I can give you some boilies

Smile Neil, it's only fishing

Cheers, Dave.,

Bit quick off the mark Dave? put aside your prejudice thinking, clear your head, take a deep breath and hold it for five minutes..
That's better

When I last looked Joe and I were friends, we might not agree on everything but never get's personal.

 

[Neil Smart]

I can assure you Neil that angling pressure was most certainly not the cause of the barbel decline on the Windrush because they were very seldom fished for. Nor was the Cherwell ever a really hammered river. I can't agree at all with your theory that angling pressure leads to a decline in stocks. It may make the fishing harder but how does it account for fish disappearing? As for the otter just being a convenient scapegoat, if only! As a regular on both the Cherwell and the Windrush I (along with others) can categorically state that two major events occurred just prior to the current decline, or near enough wipe out. One was the 2007 floods, the other was the sudden appearance of otters. I agree the otter cannot shoulder all the blame and that they are just a part of many problems, but they are a major part, not just scapegoats. I simply cannot agree that angling itself has played a major part in the serious decline of many rivers. Especially as Joe says if fish are handled correctly.

Oh dear! Please understand that I know the Windrush is a special case and abstraction and Otter all played a major part in it's decline, the Cherwell is similar too, and there is no doubt the Otter played a major part here, btw I have fished both rivers, more so the Cherwell. Add in the Biblical floods of 2007 and yes it all stacks up.

But are we to disregard food governance of our Rivers going forward as merely something that only the game fishers do?

I really think we cannot go on in this manner sticking our heads in the sand and not addressing that we as anglers need to be perhaps a little less selfish and think about the consequences of what we do.

 

[Neil Smart]

Substitution the are for were once and you might be right. A look at their match bookings will tell you it's a shadow of its former self. Also, if you ever pass a stretch that's booked you'll notice that a big match is a dozen anglers. The club match scene is dying on its arse as most of the oldies don't get replaced and they fold.

Insurance - might be an excuse but it's not valid for BAA. Many clubs/syndicates insure their members for night fishing so there's no reason why the BAA can't. There new line seems to be that night anglers are the reason their banks are littered. I raised the issue with John Williams a couple of years ago on my blog here then got a response here. In a few words, they're not interested. It will of course back fire in the long run when the club scene sees the final nails hammered into the coffin.

I well remember your campaign and the short shrift it received, I was not at all surprised, and yes the match scene is not what it used to be, and it is a bleak outlook maybe for BAA , but they continue to expand their portfolio of waters so they must be doing something right, of course we are all facing increased fees,' in line with inflation' which is something like a 20% increase

Yes they have both feet planted firmly in the past, and really any new ideas in regard to anything new and innovative is frowned upon, but BAA are not alone, many other clubs are the same.

 

[Alex Gowney]

It is probable that some barbel no longer feed at night for the reasons Joe stated, i.e. otters being nocturnal. This can depend on the circumstances in each individual river. I am sure the Wye and Usk Foundation run an excellent club but do they limit rods to protect stock levels? Or to improve the angling overall, thus providing a higher quality product? We all like to fish waters that are not too pressured but it doesn't seem to have much effect on Linear Fisheries. I appreciate these fish can't go anywhere but they still feed regardless. If angling pressure drives barbel away where do they go? Have the Teme fish all gone to the Severn? If so, why is the Severn also in decline? Have the Windrush and Cherwell fish all gone to the Thames? Not judging by that rivers form.

Maybe we are drifting slightly off topic but I still cannot see any logical or fair reason to blame night fishing for any problems that cannot be equally laid at daylight fishings door.

Have just seen your other post Neil regarding the Windrush and Cherwell. No, we can't stick our heads in the sand but I still don't get how you come to the conclusion that angling pressure affects fish stocks. Could you perhaps explain this theory and maybe offer some idea as to where the fish go? And why has it just started happening in recent years? If anything, rivers see far less anglers than they did years ago so why wasn't ti a problem then?

 

[Neil Smart]

It is probable that some barbel no longer feed at night for the reasons Joe stated, i.e. otters being nocturnal. This can depend on the circumstances in each individual river. I am sure the Wye and Usk Foundation run an excellent club but do they limit rods to protect stock levels? Or to improve the angling overall, thus providing a higher quality product? We all like to fish waters that are not too pressured but it doesn't seem to have much effect on Linear Fisheries. I appreciate these fish can't go anywhere but they still feed regardless. If angling pressure drives barbel away where do they go? Have the Teme fish all gone to the Severn? If so, why is the Severn also in decline? Have the Windrush and Cherwell fish all gone to the Thames? Not judging by that rivers form.

Maybe we are drifting slightly off topic but I still cannot see any logical or fair reason to blame night fishing for any problems that cannot be equally laid at daylight fishings door.

Well yes the Teme fish do inhabit the Severn of course they do, they have the option to return to the Teme and given the right conditions they may or may not, I would think that applies to any River that has a a tributary.
The Linear example you give really is probably not the best, and yes they have to feed, they have no choice to move on.
Is the Severn in decline? OK not as prolific as it used to be, but all in all it is improving since 2007 at least. Witness the recent catches of doubles and of course the new record fish.
I have laid out my case as to what I feel about night fishing, I may be wrong, but I am genuine in that I think it can damage fish stocks especially on small rivers.
So if you excuse me I have to go and give I hope 'Posh' a good spanking,
Not dodging any questions Dave but needs must
xx

 

[Alex Gowney]

Have a good evening Neil

 

[Alex Gowney]

Some interesting posts on the Kennet thread suggesting anglers are only catching in daylight with not even a nibble after dark.

 

[Lee Poultney]

Neil, are you trying to say you've never had a sneaky hour or two after the BAA's curfew?

 

[John Walker]

Albert you naughty man nobody in their 80s should be night fishing
alone with all them riff raff and nutters out there, safely tucked up in bed giving the wife a cuddle after 11.0pm is the place for you and i agree with you
your like me in many ways mate, tackle yer fishing on your terms and convenience yes, we may lose out on a few fish but it was on your terms
i just moved back down towards windsor today and cant wait to get out on the thames again

 

[Neil Smart]

Neil, are you trying to say you've never had a sneaky hour or two after the BAA's curfew?

Hour after sunset is normally all I do anyway, I am not adverse to breaking the odd rule now and then, but feel the hour either side of sunset is all I need really.

Yes I know I posted up that poor picture of that 13 in the dark the other week but that was less than an hour after sunset.

 

[Neil Smart]

Have a good evening Neil

Cheers Alex, and Posh did get it three times in all