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Martin Salter blog

I have witnessed an Otter attacking a Swans nest and eating the eggs, this left the Swan sitting on an empty nest for a considerable time, not nice and not natural.
Last season on three occasions Otters attacked Pike anglers baits, one was hooked but fortunately it came off.
Another angler had a commotion going on with his keep net, he thought a Pike had attacked his net after his catch, when he lifted his net an Otter was hanging on the end.
On numerous occasions Otters have made there way out of the water onto the bank ALMOST begging for food from an angler, Why are they so brazen ?
Then we have the famous picture of the Otter that was way beyond any water and was pictured going into the café at the garden centre at Parley, perhaps he was fed up with fish.....a bit of egg and bacon might make a change.
Is it right for these creatures of the wild not to be afraid of humans ?
They trespass on private property raiding peoples ponds, many a fishery owner is struggling to make ends meet with the loss of fish stocks and struggle to find funds to erect Otter fencing.
So what can we do ?........NOTHING.
Until the PROTECTION order is lifted we just have to put up with it all.
May I say that not all dead fish on the bank can be seen by many anglers, Foxes and rodents do clear some remains.
I spend many hours on the riverbank every day so this will increase the chance to see much what is going on.
So to sum up, it is not very often that I will post on the subject of Otters, all the talk and opinions will come to nothing, I just get on with managing the river at Throop and try to enjoy all that is put before us, watching anglers catching the fish of there dreams and meeting up with the lads with their passion for angling.
We do the very best we can with not much help from those of higher authority that should use some common sense and not make the lack of money an excuse to turn their backs.
Brian.

Hmm , bad examples, that prove nothing-

A predator eating a swans (or any other birds eggs) is completely natural, watch a passion for angling- redmire dreams to watch a grebe taking a moor hens eggs....

A predator known for eating dead as well as live baits, picking up a dead bait for tea/ a predator attacking a large gavering of food sized fish in a a confined area in the case highlighted (keepnet), could quite easily be a pike, so meaningless.

Never had a robin, land next to your maggot box?

OK I'll give you the Otter ordering a full English at the garden centre..

But trespassing? Give over, not like they can read a sign saying 'no otters, pond full of precious koi carp' is it?

The point I'm making is that without , good solid evidence that otters are depleting river stocks massively, which they are for the main not, we haven't got a leg to stand on, and a few throat ripped out barbel ain't going to change that.

Far better we moan about signal crayfish or summat.
 
Apparently not, they are the same Lutra lutra, Scottish Otter are flourishing, and have adapted well to taking sea fish. The piece I read also mentioned that road kill is the biggest killer to the species. Some 8,000 Scottish Otter abound.:eek:

Plenty of salmon up there too. He regularly captures shots of seals and dolphins hurling salmon around.
The A84 is a bl@~dy scary road!! Been up there 3 times now and seen a few accidents. Lutra lutra would be dicing with death on that road :eek:
 
Hmm , bad examples, that prove nothing-

A predator eating a swans (or any other birds eggs) is completely natural, watch a passion for angling- redmire dreams to watch a grebe taking a moor hens eggs....

A predator known for eating dead as well as live baits, picking up a dead bait for tea/ a predator attacking a large gavering of food sized fish in a a confined area in the case highlighted (keepnet), could quite easily be a pike, so meaningless.

Never had a robin, land next to your maggot box?

OK I'll give you the Otter ordering a full English at the garden centre..

But trespassing? Give over, not like they can read a sign saying 'no otters, pond full of precious koi carp' is it?

The point I'm making is that without , good solid evidence that otters are depleting river stocks massively, which they are for the main not, we haven't got a leg to stand on, and a few throat ripped out barbel ain't going to change that.

Far better we moan about signal crayfish or summat.

Agreed. Otters must have been snacking on Swans since time immemorial.

I wouldn't mind stumbling upon a freshly ottered swan to be honest - it would give me the chance to test out the veracity of a claim my Grandad made. He reckoned a swan's neck was the most comfortable thing you could ever wipe your backside with....

.. I'll get my coat..
 
Jon Bedford, you wrote:

The point I'm making is that without , good solid evidence that otters are depleting river stocks massively, which they are for the main not, we haven't got a leg to stand on, and a few throat ripped out barbel ain't going to change that.

A somewhat perverse statement isn't it? On the one hand firmly stating the need for good solid evidence concerning the otters responsibility for dwindling barbel stocks but in the very same sentence claiming "which they are for the main not". Where is your evidence in support of that bold statement and which particular river are you referring to?
 
Or is just out of necessity-becoming more urbanised simply to find food? Or a combination of factors.

The amount of food discarded by this throw away society will imo be utilised by animals other than the foxes we see wandering the streets, otters are imo no different and if the badgers I used to feed were anything to go by they soon loose all fear of humans once they realise we are no threat to them, I have sat 6 feet from those badgers and it never bothered them so yes imo (again) you could easily be correct about looking for food, much easier to eat our waste than chase after ever decreasing numbers of fish.
 
Jon Bedford, you wrote:

The point I'm making is that without , good solid evidence that otters are depleting river stocks massively, which they are for the main not, we haven't got a leg to stand on, and a few throat ripped out barbel ain't going to change that.

A somewhat perverse statement isn't it? On the one hand firmly stating the need for good solid evidence concerning the otters responsibility for dwindling barbel stocks but in the very same sentence claiming "which they are for the main not". Where is your evidence in support of that bold statement and which particular river are you referring to?

I wrote river stocks not barbel stocks, Howard.

As in, everything from minnows, bullheads and loach upward. The barbel population is only a small part of this. You tell me which rivers Otters have emptied of fish? It doesn't happen so the otter will carry on being protected, inspite of the fact that yes it does kill barbel and other fish.

I mainly fish the Yorkshire rivers and the tidal Trent. Strangely the tidal Trent does not seem to have much of an otter population, I have never seen one,and never heard of any either, and there is a huge biomass of fish.

The Yorkshire rivers, still have decent fish stocks,despite all of them having populations of otters on for some time, Barbel wise its hard to say for definite but going on catch reports and my own findings, barbel returns are down in some rivers (swale, Nidd and Ure) holding steady on the Ouse and actually up on the wharfe and Derwent.

Jon
 
Jon, you are right, you did say river stocks but that makes it worse as you are now making a statement about the impact of otters on, presumably, all fish species and doing so without any hard evidence. So the point remains-you can't state that people who claim otters are impacting on barbel stocks must provide evidence in support of such claim without that burden of proof also being placed on those making a counter claim.
 
Howard I think the point Jon is trying to make is that we have to prove guilt - no one has to prove innocence especially when we all know and expect otters to eat fish. So the burden is with those who are suggesting that otters are the main culprit to provide evidence as such, which surely is the correct position...

Musing on Jon's observations and what others have said - do otters have less of an impact on fish stocks on spate/upland rivers compared to lowland rivers? Who knows, so this along with many other questions is why we need some in-depth, accurate research.
 
Hi men ,

Interesting that the Barbel Society have approached the PAG , will see what comes of that .


Hatter
 
Where is the evidence to suggest our rivers are broadly incapable of supporting the current otter population Howard? That's quite a statement.

Yes there appears to be an obvious conflict between barbel in smaller rivers and otters, but that doesn't mean to say that the rivers are incapable of supporting the current otter population. The fact the otter population is what it is currently rather turns that argument on it's head.

We keep hearing from some anglers about the (alleged) impact of otters on other wildlife, notably wildfowl especially coots, moorhens, swans and bitterns. On this forum I've even read claims the otters are responsible for decimating the UK water vole population.

I'm all for angling forging new and powerful alliances with non-angling groups, personally I feel that is the only way that real progress in improving our rivers will ever be made, but in order to for this to happen, and for anglers to be viewed as desirable allies, we really must make much more effort to base our arguments on sound, credible evidence.

If anglers knock-on the door of the likes of the RSPB or the Wildlife Trusts, (I use these two organisations as I know them both well and understand their firm commitment to conservation science and evidence-led policy) and start making claims about the impacts of otters on riparian wildlife, then firstly they need to be credible, and secondly they need to be able to backed up by some empirical data. Pictures of otters attacking wildfowl are unlikely to generate any response other than bemusement, it will simply be viewed as a picture of a generalist predator doing what generalist predators do best and numerous spraint surveys have shown otters predate birds and other wildlife so I'm struggling to see what benefit a few pictures will provide? On the other hand present them with some hard data which suggests otter predation is causing a marked decline on a particular species or community of species at a population level then those anglers will be taken seriously.

The problem with all the anecdotal claims about the impact of otter predation on other wildlife, and I'm not denying that otter predation can have an impact on a short-term local level, is that they rather fly in the face of the plethora of the extensive bird population survey data which is out there. BTO survey data suggests the UK swan population is an high is it has ever been. Moorhen's, whose population tends to fluctuate widely, don't appear to be declining, Coot's are doing rather well, as is the Heron and the UK Bittern population is literally booming. Numerous studies have found habitat degradation and mink to be the key factors behind the decline in the UK water vole population, some research implies water vole predation by mink is greatly reduced when Otters are present.

Unless there is empirical evidence to suggest otters are impacting on other wildlife at a population level then I'd suggest this is an argument that angling should avoid getting into. Best to concentrate on building alliances based on the shared goals of habitat improvement and water quality - that's the way forward imo.

Hi Joe with regards to your second point, minus the water voles where i thought mink had done the damage, i am sure someone posted the results of a scientific study, the dreaded otter poo, that on the river that the research took place in late spring, early summer indicated up to 40% of an otters diet was feathered.
Anecdotally i was told a "conservation officer" said that otter population density had intentionally been increased as otters would drive out mink, which was the water voles big enemy. Asked about the impact of the otters on fish populations etc. he said collateral damage, and if otters subsequently died of starvation well they would eventually balance but at least we would have water voles.. This was on the Kennet which has been in a bad way for a number of years for a number of reasons but has had an otter population that seemed to have little or no impact on fish stocks for over 40 years. Otters were still introduced in to the river which to me was stupidity.
3 to 4 years ago on the Kennet i started to very regularly see otters, almost every time i fished on all different stretches. coincidentally or otherwise this coincided with a lot of Barbel being caught with chunks missing from their tail lobes followed by what appears to have been a significant decline in Barbel , particularly double figure fish, in the river. the last 2 years i have only seen a couple of otters but then i travel around 100 miles each way now to fish for them rather than 20 miles to the Kennet. The Kennet was a prolific Barbel river and as Graham Elliot has said, was used to stock other rivers. Now the Kennet is having to be stocked with Barbel so something is seriously wrong. All the otters fault no but significant impact i fear yes.
 
Paul wrote(MY QUOTATION BUTTON ISN'T WORKING):

'Who knows, so this along with many other questions is why we need some in-depth, accurate research.'

Sorry for labouring the point but whatever research is undertaken now can only give us baseline figures to work with ...and these will seemingly be after the event! There is nothing to compare against. The same research would have to be done several years down the line to measure any changes.

So, we have to collect the data, stock the fish, improve the environment, and then see what positive impact it is having. If it isn't, because of predation/pollution/precipitation (the list goes on!) then an alternative has to be sought.
 
Sorry for labouring the point but whatever research is undertaken now can only give us baseline figures to work with ...and these will seemingly be after the event! There is nothing to compare against. The same research would have to be done several years down the line to measure any changes.

So, we have to collect the data, stock the fish, improve the environment, and then see what positive impact it is having. If it isn't, because of predation/pollution/precipitation (the list goes on!) then an alternative has to be sought.

Anthony - absolutely but we are frequently being told by the EA that water quality is better now than it has been for some time (for the Calder and Aire i fished as a kid i would have to agree). Yet we are suggesting significant decline in at least one species on many rivers, so we need a scientifically robust baseline as without it we are just speculating.
 
Hi Joe with regards to your second point, minus the water voles where i thought mink had done the damage, i am sure someone posted the results of a scientific study, the dreaded otter poo, that on the river that the research took place in late spring, early summer indicated up to 40% of an otters diet was feathered.
Anecdotally i was told a "conservation officer" said that otter population density had intentionally been increased as otters would drive out mink, which was the water voles big enemy. Asked about the impact of the otters on fish populations etc. he said collateral damage, and if otters subsequently died of starvation well they would eventually balance but at least we would have water voles.. This was on the Kennet which has been in a bad way for a number of years for a number of reasons but has had an otter population that seemed to have little or no impact on fish stocks for over 40 years. Otters were still introduced in to the river which to me was stupidity.
3 to 4 years ago on the Kennet i started to very regularly see otters, almost every time i fished on all different stretches. coincidentally or otherwise this coincided with a lot of Barbel being caught with chunks missing from their tail lobes followed by what appears to have been a significant decline in Barbel , particularly double figure fish, in the river. the last 2 years i have only seen a couple of otters but then i travel around 100 miles each way now to fish for them rather than 20 miles to the Kennet. The Kennet was a prolific Barbel river and as Graham Elliot has said, was used to stock other rivers. Now the Kennet is having to be stocked with Barbel so something is seriously wrong. All the otters fault no but significant impact i fear yes.

Robert,

If you read through my comments, you won't find me disagreeing that otters have an impact on barbel, where I do disagree with many others is regarding the claims that otters are have a significant impact (e.g on a wider population level rather than a localised one) on wildfowl and other wildlife. Otters eating wildfowl and other wildfowl is what, as a generalist predator, they will have been doing since time immemorial.

Cheers,

Joe
 
Anthony - absolutely but we are frequently being told by the EA that water quality is better now than it has been for some time (for the Calder and Aire i fished as a kid i would have to agree). Yet we are suggesting significant decline in at least one species on many rivers, so we need a scientifically robust baseline as without it we are just speculating.

In terms of nitrates, PCB's, pollutants from heavy industry, and general point source high BOD pollution incidents than that's true, but that claim ignores other pollutants, many of which the EA aren't testing for, neonicontiniods for instance.
Sediment loads are increasing in many catchments due to poor soil management practices and the increased growing of high-risk crops such as maize (20k acres in 1973 to around 470,000 acres today). Increased levels of pesticides, inc molluscides are increasing in many catchments, then we have endocrine disrupters etc, some northern rivers being harmed by increased burning on grouse moors...I could go on! And in many rivers, the impacts of the above are being made made much worse by increasing amounts of water abstraction.
 
Joe - I couldn't agree more hence the need for all encompassing research as it may be the otter is just a small player in all of this - the Kennet would be a good place to start.
 
Joe - I couldn't agree more hence the need for all encompassing research as it may be the otter is just a small player in all of this - the Kennet would be a good place to start.

Agreed.

Hard to disagree that the Kennet is the best place to start, although the Warks Avon would be an interesting one.
 
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