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It’s back !!

Terry Harman said:
in lakes which have reasonable to high fishing pressure and lots of available food, the carp is inclined to be highly selective in what it does and doesn’t choose.
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I think there's some truth in what you both (Terry/Damian) say, but above line is (IMO) the, 'killer' statement. I believe that the situation in 'unpressurized' (lightlly/moderately fished) rivers is different than in pressurized pools/lakes where plenty of foodstuffs are fed in. The fish are regularly fed so they can be choosy, whilst in some riverine situations it may be a case of 'beggars can't be choosers' ...and a low-medium quality offering may well be 'snapped up' if it's placed in front of them.
There's SO many variables in the success/failure 'fish catching equation', and 'bait quality' is but one of them. Maybe in the top 5??) And, at times, I think we place too much emphasis on our own 'stuff' (i.e. preconceived notions) in that equation.
 
I get what your saying terry but a busy lake or a unfished river doesn’t change a barbel’s biology or what it can and can’t detect
I think Damian’s argument was fish can’t tell what a good nutritional food source is…. But it can… that doesn’t mean fish won’t pick up other baits they will then the rig does the work ….but if you want to establish an actual food source in your stretch of river long term one that they will actively seek out then a good nutritional bait wins every time…

On pellets this is what John baker has to say and he knows more about fish nutrition than most of us

“bait of high-oil content such as halibut pellets should never be used in cold water. Carp cannot assimilate the rich oil and it upsets their digestive systems putting them off feeding for long periods of time. Anglers who use salmon, trout or halibut type pellets are not only likely to damage fish health but they are potentially spoiling the sport for others. Halibut pellets, for example, contain around 45% fish oil. The recommended oil content for carp feed or bait is 7%.”
 
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They are not that smart, otherwise we will not catch them on fly/lure at all. If you don't strike when they suck the fly/lure, they will quickly reject it because these things do tasted like food at all.

But if you think about the catch rate, I think using high quality bait definitely catches more barbel than using fly/lure. The same applies to fishing pike/zander etc, deadbait works better than lure, live bait works better than deadbait.
 
Huanzhou Zhu said:
They are not that smart, otherwise we will not catch them on fly/lure at all. If you don't strike when they suck the fly/lure, they will quickly reject it because these things do tasted like food at all.
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With the greatest of respect I don’t see how that point is relevant Huanzhou.
A fly or a lure imitates prey. Fish responding to prey do so in a completely different manner to the way they respond to a lifeless food source sitting on the deck. If they didn’t they simply wouldn’t catch it.
watch how pike respond to dead bait’s underwater.
They can literally sit and stare at it for hours making assessments before it’s even gone in it’s mouth.
A lure represents a 1 chance hit to eat live prey so the response is going to be entirely different
 
Making assessments? Really? Isn't that a bit anthropomorphic like?
 
Terry Harman said:
I get what your saying terry but a busy lake or a unfished river doesn’t change a barbel’s biology or what it can and can’t detect
I think Damian’s argument was fish can’t tell what a good nutritional food source is…. But it can… that doesn’t mean fish won’t pick up other baits they will then the rig does the work ….but if you want to establish an actual food source in your stretch of river long term one that they will actively seek out then a good nutritional bait wins every time…

On pellets this is what John baker has to say and he knows more about fish nutrition than most of us

“bait of high-oil content such as halibut pellets should never be used in cold water. Carp cannot assimilate the rich oil and it upsets their digestive systems putting them off feeding for long periods of time. Anglers who use salmon, trout or halibut type pellets are not only likely to damage fish health but they are potentially spoiling the sport for others. Halibut pellets, for example, contain around 45% fish oil. The recommended oil content for carp feed or bait is 7%.”
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All I'm really saying mate is .... if I'm starving and all I've got in the house is some 'cooking' cheese and a bit of onion that's seen better days, I'll wolf down a cheese 'n onion butty. But if I'm faced with a posh buffet after having had a pie 'n a pint earlier I'll be choosy and go for a few smoked salmon triangles, chorizo & stilton vol-au-vents etc. That is, it depends on how hungry you are, and what choice you're offered.
Whatever, I do believe that if you sparingly pre-bait with a 'unique' item for several days, then you'll stand a good chance of catching when you eventually try that unique bait on your hook. I believe it's the confidence gained in that bait's uniqueness, and not necessarily its 'quality'.
E.G.. Hemp : it appears to go straight through fish undigested (a la sweetcorn in humans) but seeing as so few fish are caught on hemp compared to the millions of particles of hemp that are introduced into rivers every year, the fish frenzy feed for it. It does them little or no good but they go mad for it. And that's due to confidence (IMO)
 
Why the need to prebait at all? If the fish have this innate ability to 'assess' food for its nutritional benefits, it should recognise that from the outset?
 
I think with smaller particles like hemp they get preoccupied I know nothing about the nutritional value of hemp but an interesting question because all fish seem to love it
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Why the need to prebait at all? If the fish have this innate ability to 'assess' food for its nutritional benefits, it should recognise that from the outset?
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Because you are trying to establish a food source that they will actively seek out and that’s where flavour comes in … a flavour is just a label so when they detect the flavour they know it’s what they have been eating and it’s of a high nutritional value … if you want to get answers email John baker or Simon Scott I’m sure they could explain it better than me
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Making assessments? Really? Isn't that a bit anthropomorphic like?
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I’m not claiming to know the thought process of the pike so perhaps “making assessments” was me making assumptions but I can’t think of another reason why (and it’s extremely common) would a pike sit with it’s nose right infront of a dead fish that is clearly an easy filling meal and not pick it up for a considerable amount of time and sometimes they don’t at all.
It’s clearly considering eating it so what’s the reason for the delay and this isn’t always a quick delay. I’ve sat and watched them in the margins for long periods of time staring at dead baits but not taking them.

They ain’t as daft as you think.
 
Aren't you contradicting yourself a little Terry?
Why do you need a flavour for a fish to recognise that a bait is good for it if fish are that intelligent they can recognise a good bait from the outset?
 
Right let me say this SLOWWWLY so you can understand what I’ve told you 3 times before …Because the flavour is the label when they get scent of the flavour they relate it to a food source ( are you still with me ?) that they know is nutritious and actually good for them therefore seeking out my baits before your 2kg of oil ridden pellets you have chucked in 2 swims down …. Comprende ?
to save keep going round in circles damian the simple answer is if you don’t buy into the whole hnv bait thing then don’t use it carry on using pellets or luncheon meat or whatever it is you use for bait … you seem to be putting up a lot of arguments so let’s hear your theory on bait then we can compare notes if not ..
I’m sure there’s a thread on here about pellets or sweetcorn or bread you could contribute to if that’s more your thing
 
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Richard Isaacs said:
Ah ….. can we actually tell or do we just know but choose to ignore?
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Isn’t this to do with value. We’re programmed to seek out sweet things for example because sugar would be a scarce high value commodity, you even get an endorphin hit from these foods. They aren’t nutritional as such but they are high energy, junk foods appeal to us because the hunter gatherer in us would find these foods precious, too much is unhealthy obviously but historically not likely.
I seem to recall something about foods being laced with sugar after the second world war to provide cheap calories to an unnourished post war population.
 
You're a bit of a doughnut really, Terry aren't you?!
 
Terry Harman said:
Right let me say this SLOWWWLY so you can understand what I’ve told you 3 times before …Because the flavour is the label when they get scent of the flavour they relate it to a food source ( are you still with me ?) that they know is nutritious and actually good for them therefore seeking out my baits before your 2kg of oil ridden pellets you have chucked in 2 swims down …. Comprende ?
to save keep going round in circles damian the simple answer is if you don’t buy into the whole hnv bait thing then don’t use it carry on using pellets or luncheon meat or whatever it is you use for bait … you seem to be putting up a lot of arguments so let’s hear your theory on bait then we can compare notes if not ..
I’m sure there’s a thread on here about pellets or sweetcorn or bread you could contribute to if that’s more your thing
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Terry I admire you patience (or maybe that should be patients).

I gave up replying days ago.
 
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