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In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

Terry Christopher said:
I'm sure you're right Fred, but reckon I'll stick with using my loaf;)
There's a certain special joy in catching chub on flake under a stick float,...on a par with freelining lobs.
ATVB
Terry

Simon..flavoured pellets/flavoured paste wrap? And I'm sure you've read and are fully conversant with Westie's take on it.
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Hi Terry, no nothing as complicated as that ! just a choice of two baits, plain old TPs straight out of the bag and the other bait that can be used boiled or paste, no added flavours in either.
 
Terry Christopher said:
Retro huh...the antithesis of HNV!! great stuff:)
ATBA
Tery
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Antithesis Terry? How so? Trout pellets have a very reasonably nutritional value, and Simon has already mentioned that his home produced stuff has decent NV levels too. Not as high in protein levels as Freds perhaps, but high enough overall for the fish to understand it's value to them.

Cheers, Dave.
 
David, I meant antithesis in the sense of using something particulate, mass produced, and 'off the shelf'...as opposed to something from a personal recipe which is home mixed and rolled. Also, re. HNV, the first thing I think about isn't trout pellets.
ATBA
Terry
 
We should all fish the way we enjoy most Terry,in your case float fishing flake whereas in my case I enjoy experimenting with bait which is just as well as I must admit I am and always have been a very poor angler and in all honesty without HNV bait I would catch little if anything,keep catching and more important keep enjoying your fishing....Fred
 
Fred Wilton said:
We should all fish the way we enjoy most Terry,in your case float fishing flake whereas in my case I enjoy experimenting with bait which is just as well as I must admit I am and always have been a very poor angler and in all honesty without HNV bait I would catch little if anything,keep catching and more important keep enjoying your fishing....Fred
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Thats what its all about Fred doing what we enjoy with out having to worry about what other people think ?

Fred if I may be so bold to ask ? What advice would you give to some some one trying to make HNV baits for the first time ?
 
Well said Fred, couldn't agree more.

Joe, have you read "Modern Barbel Baits & Tactics" (John Baker). Its expensive for a relatively old book, and only 127 pages, but its a bit of a bible for some enthusiasts.
 

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Terry Christopher said:
Well said Fred, couldn't agree more.

Joe, have you read "Modern Barbel Baits & Tactics" (John Baker). Its expensive for a relatively old book, and only 127 pages, but its a bit of a bible for some enthusiasts.
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I Sold the paperback one on here a while back. And it does offer some very good info on bait making.

Dave
 
Looks like you're lucky to get a well used copy for £25. A dry read..but full to bursting with information (albeit from the supplier of the products being recommended).
Should have had mine signed..could be worth a fortune:eek:
 
Basically Joe the idea of HNV bait is to give the fish something as close as possible to their ideal diet.When I first started I honestly thought I would have taken it as far as I could inside 2 or 3 years yet 47 years later I am still working on it.
I was lucky that when I started the most widely used baits were bread-paste and potatoes with a few using sausage so it was easier to start off with a bait and then gradually improve on it which I am still doing to this day.
In my opinion the protein level needs to be higher than that generally accepted by some anglers as this is based on fish farming practice and the farmer's need to show a profit and not the fish's preference.Also required is a source of vitamin s and minerals,and a smell that differentiates your bait from everyone else's because believe me someone else using the same smell in an inferior bait(whether deliberately or accidently) will destroy all your hard work, I know as it has happened to me.
I hope this helps and best of luck,it can be very enjoyable......Fred
 
Fred Wilton said:
Basically Joe the idea of HNV bait is to give the fish something as close as possible to their ideal diet.When I first started I honestly thought I would have taken it as far as I could inside 2 or 3 years yet 47 years later I am still working on it.
I was lucky that when I started the most widely used baits were bread-paste and potatoes with a few using sausage so it was easier to start off with a bait and then gradually improve on it which I am still doing to this day.
In my opinion the protein level needs to be higher than that generally accepted by some anglers as this is based on fish farming practice and the farmer's need to show a profit and not the fish's preference.Also required is a source of vitamin s and minerals,and a smell that differentiates your bait from everyone else's because believe me someone else using the same smell in an inferior bait(whether deliberately or accidently) will destroy all your hard work, I know as it has happened to me.
I hope this helps and best of luck,it can be very enjoyable......Fred
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Cheers for the reply Fred . Your point about smell/flavour . I read a article by Tony Miles where he said the same thing about smell/flavour and any one else using the same will destroy your chances .
 
If the protein content of a HNV bait has to be higher than that in the fish farming industry how do we know that fish are able to break down whatever is in the bait? I was of the understanding that the gut of a fish is quite a simple affair compared to other creatures.

Does a lot of that expensive bait come out of the back end of the fish :eek: hence why other fish have been known to feed on the waste of other fish.
 
Graham Young said:
If the protein content of a HNV bait has to be higher than that in the fish farming industry how do we know that fish are able to break down whatever is in the bait? I was of the understanding that the gut of a fish is quite a simple affair compared to other creatures.

Does a lot of that expensive bait come out of the back end of the fish :eek: hence why other fish have been known to feed on the waste of other fish.
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Graham from what little I know on the subject and having looked on the
CC Moore website at there list of base mix ingredients . Some ingredients are soluble and some are insoluble and I would assume that the soluble ones will break down quicker in a fishes gut than a insoluble one will .
 
Graham,in 1967 I assumed the protein level required by carp would be similar to that for humans or close to it so I increased the percentage of protein in the bait slowly bit by bit expecting to reach a point where the takes would level off or drop,but it didn't happen.I then realised that carp grew biggest where live food was most plentiful and live food is very high in protein and from what I have read since fish obtain a great deal of their energy from protein under normal circumstances and are well capable of doing so as well as using protein for growth.Fish farmers with a view to profit prefer to limit the protein in fish feed whereas I believe fish would prefer a protein level similar to natural (live) food.....Fred
 
Graham Young said:
If the protein content of a HNV bait has to be higher than that in the fish farming industry QUOTE]

I think what is being said is (correct me if I'm wrong Fred).. fish farmers set their feed protein level at what they see as the optimum i.e. the addition cost of extra protein fed would not be repaid by the extra weight put on by the fish. Fish farmers, being businessmen, have to strike a balance and feed the optimum feed (lowest feed cost/greatest return in fish pounds)

I suppose there could be a danger of 'over-proteining' fish, but only fish that are captive and rely 100% on what is being fed to them. In 'the wild' there is no danger of this. Dunno what the % protein is of a lobworm, but guess its pretty high:) The only exception would be anglers piling HPV into a small pool, but this would be akin to fish farming I guess:)
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Thanks for the reply Fred, just watching a programme on TV and the vet said that cattle eat grass but don't actually live from it, the grass is eaten to feed bacteria in their gut which when they die are absorbed as protein by the cow and its that bacteria that feeds them.

More to this than meets the eye perhaps?
 
Terry any protein that a fish uses for energy would be considered as wasted by a fish farmer but it would be a natural part of the fish's way of living.So the farmer adds carbohydrates to fish food as an energy source to cut down on his costs not for the benefit of the fish,yet many anglers consider large amounts of carbohydrate as being essential to fish although very little occurs in a fish's natural diet.
To compare the nutritional value of food items the moisture content should be ignored as water contains no calories and has no food value,for instance if you and I eat the same meal and one of us has a glass of water with it we will still both have gained the same food value from it.....Fred
 
As interesting as this thread is, it is all however conjecture as to what certain baits may or not be beneficial to wild fish, there is no scientific basis to what bait manufactures all anyone it seems could add to make the baits that we fish with to be of benefit to fish.

Of course in the scale of what we introduce to the rivers is probably of no great impact to the food stock that fish rely on, unless we look at such venues as Adams Mill as it was, where the intense feeding by anglers impacted on barbel growth.

I look at as a piece of spam offered by the occasional angler, boilie or pellet is much like the occasional treat served up by the likes of the ice cream van to us humans, an occasional treat.

However still water venues are a different matter where intense feeding of manufactured bait is probably more impactive, certainly those pot bellied carp are testament to a very high and unnecessary increase in proteins, river or wild carp do not show such girths.

Fred said he dabbled with baits that offered a similar protein structure to what humans require, I cannot imagine for one second that this is a requirement for fish, some or most mammals but not fish, what fish need is all together different to us, for they have a unique requirement, as different from mammals as it could be.

Fish don't need our baits to survive, and no amount of HNV baits will improve their lot, perhaps we are just kidding ourselves by spending fortunes with the next best bait?

If anyone can advise me on a better bait than bread maggot or worm I will eat a kilo of the stuff :eek:
 
Neil.I have heard that re constituted carp poo is the ultimate bait , miles better than wriggly worms or dull old bread . Happy eating :D
 
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