In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

[Alex Gowney]

Neil, I'm not sure if it's a case of HNV "improving their lot" but of the fish recognising instinctively a food source that contains nutrients they need in their day to day feeding. I agree maggots, bread and worms are top baits and if I could only ever use one chub bait again it would be bread. Buti f I were asked to select one bait only I could use for barbel it would be a less straightforward choice. If it were still available in it's original form then I would probably go for Activ8 base mix. I have caught many barbel on this in various cake, boilie or paste forms.

But I wouldn't want to eat a kilo of the stuff

 

[Neil Smart]

Neil, I'm not sure if it's a case of HNV "improving their lot" but of the fish recognising instinctively a food source that contains nutrients they need in their day to day feeding. I agree maggots, bread and worms are top baits and if I could only ever use one chub bait again it would be bread. Buti f I were asked to select one bait only I could use for barbel it would be a less straightforward choice. If it were still available in it's original form then I would probably go for Activ8 base mix. I have caught many barbel on this in various cake, boilie or paste forms.

But I wouldn't want to eat a kilo of the stuff

Hi Alex,
Improving their lot, well I know this would not be the case in all probability, but certainly we might have been lead to believe that HNV would actually benefit the fish. This is pure conjecture as is that fish can recognise in these baits 'instinctively' certain food sources in these baits that they need to flourish, this is I suggest fantasy, and sort of permits us to carry on regardless.

Yes I have heard that Active8 was the dogs doo da's and no doubt it had the edge over some other baits, but being a sceptical type and without any controlled experiments we can refer to as the the effectiveness of this bait or any other then it possibly just boils down to having confidence in the bait of choice.

Joe the OP asked the question can barbel really tell the difference with HNV, personally I don't really, know, and no amount of discussing it on here will prove either way they can, but what I do know is that IF you believe any manufactured bait gives you the edge then it probably will.

But it probably would never outfish the old fashioned, uncool baits, but that is not what the bait companies would never admit.

 

[Neil Smart]

Neil.I have heard that re constituted carp poo is the ultimate bait , miles better than wriggly worms or dull old bread . Happy eating

Yes I Googled that But methinks you are winding me up a bit?... now if you said dogs poo or Goose Droppings well maybe, it's all out there on the Carp Forums.

Either way I am sticking to the Turkey just at the moment.

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Very sensible Neil , you know where you are with a turkey

 

[Simon Lush]

Yep agree, that they pick out edible food and eject other, well that's a given anyway so no point in arguing that, even on here

You say say it is the quality of the bait rather than the flavour, well yes I guess you could argue both sides of that one, probably a mixture of the two, but probably for a long term worthwhile bait HNV would be the choice.

I would think that Barbel get drawn to meat as a Special Treat, and for that reason I can see why it is a bite getter..

If I was going to target a particular stretch of River in the hope of bagging a biggie I would go for the HNV approach with regular feeding.

From page 5 ! Why the HNV approach in these circumstances then Neil ?

 

[Simon Lush]

Oh, and a better bait than bread, maggot and worm ? Casters for sure, there are a lot of em in a kilo too, i'll buy them and bring along a video camera Merry Xmas.

 

[Neil Smart]

From page 5 ! Why the HNV approach in these circumstances then Neil ?

Yes, I was hoping that this was buried but of course where boilies and pellet outscore the old fashioned baits is that they deter unwanted attention from other species,so going along that route of pre baiting in the hope of catching a big barbel it would make sense to use these.

Whether it was HNV or standard? Well I guess it is what gives us greater confidence in the choice, which I guess is paramount. So the choice of HNV might be a even more of a confidence booster, even if it makes no difference to the fish.

 

[Simon Lush]

Yes, I was hoping that this was buried but of course where boilies and pellet outscore the old fashioned baits is that they deter unwanted attention from other species,so going along that route of pre baiting in the hope of catching a big barbel it would make sense to use these.

Whether it was HNV or standard? Well I guess it is what gives us greater confidence in the choice, which I guess is paramount. So the choice of HNV might be a even more of a confidence booster, even if it makes no difference to the fish.

Good recovery

 

[Neil Smart]

Oh, and a better bait than bread, maggot and worm ? Casters for sure, there are a lot of em in a kilo too, i'll buy them and bring along a video camera Merry Xmas.

You know as I do maggot can out fish caster or vice versa, but agree caster is a top bait that sorts out a better stamp of Roach.

You bring me along a Kilo? You must be 'minted' Simon.

Right off Christmas shopping, don't like leaving it too late.

Sod Christmas, I would rather be fishing, but try and have a good 'un.

 

[Neil Smart]

Good recovery

Phew...

Really off now.

 

[Simon Lush]

You know as I do maggot can out fish caster or vice versa, but agree caster is a top bait that sorts out a better stamp of Roach.

You bring me along a Kilo? You must be 'minted' Simon.

Right off Christmas shopping, don't like leaving it too late.

Sod Christmas, I would rather be fishing, but try and have a good 'un.

Cheers i will and while you're out shopping don't forget a big bag of casein

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Basically Joe the idea of HNV bait is to give the fish something as close as possible to their ideal diet.When I first started I honestly thought I would have taken it as far as I could inside 2 or 3 years yet 47 years later I am still working on it.
I was lucky that when I started the most widely used baits were bread-paste and potatoes with a few using sausage so it was easier to start off with a bait and then gradually improve on it which I am still doing to this day.
In my opinion the protein level needs to be higher than that generally accepted by some anglers as this is based on fish farming practice and the farmer's need to show a profit and not the fish's preference.Also required is a source of vitamin s and minerals,and a smell that differentiates your bait from everyone else's because believe me someone else using the same smell in an inferior bait(whether deliberately or accidently) will destroy all your hard work, I know as it has happened to me.
I hope this helps and best of luck,it can be very enjoyable......Fred

This is interesting . Fred seems to be saying , and apologies if I have misinterpreted, that if another angler uses a bait with a similar smell , even if an inferior bait[ in nutritional value ] then your HNV bait won't attract the fish as successfully .Would this not indicate therefore that it is the smell of a bait rather than it's nutritional value that makes it more successful ?

 

[Simon Lush]

This is interesting . Fred seems to be saying , and apologies if I have misinterpreted, that if another angler uses a bait with a similar smell , even if an inferior bait[ in nutritional value ] then your HNV bait won't attract the fish as successfully .Would this not indicate therefore that it is the smell of a bait rather than it's nutritional value that makes it more successful ?

Mike, to my way of thinking its like this, you develop a highly nutritional bait that fish through association recognise as a very good foodstuff, then along comes another foodsource that has a similar identity (flavouring / oil etc) but on a very poor base, this then derails your efforts. This begs the big question to me, why bother with a 'label' at all ? especially an artificial flavouring, many of which although they smell different are made on the same few solvent bases, which is a huge common denominator. In theory if the bait is good enough it will be eaten and recognised as such, so to me an artificial flavour seems unnecessary and if anything detrimental ?

 

[Joe Fletcher]

This is interesting . Fred seems to be saying , and apologies if I have misinterpreted, that if another angler uses a bait with a similar smell , even if an inferior bait[ in nutritional value ] then your HNV bait won't attract the fish as successfully .Would this not indicate therefore that it is the smell of a bait rather than it's nutritional value that makes it more successful ?

Mike Tony Miles says the same thing as Fred , Read paragraph 4 on the link .

fishingwarehouse.co.uk - fishing news, views, information & a secure tackle shop - the top UK angling site!

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Mike, to my way of thinking its like this, you develop a highly nutritional bait that fish through association recognise as a very good foodstuff, then along comes another foodsource that has a similar identity (flavouring / oil etc) but on a very poor base this then derails your efforts. This begs the big question to me, why bother with a 'label' at all, especially an artificial flavouring, many of which although they smell different are made on the same few solvent bases, which is a huge common denominator. In theory if the bait is good enough it will be eaten and recognised as such, so to me an artificial flavour seems unnecessary and if anything detrimental ?

So the logical end game , in terms of trying to prove that it is the high nutrient value of the bait alone that attracts the fish ,is to create an HNV bait with no smell ? If that worked very well then it may go some way to proving that the fish have to consume it to know it is good for them and why they find it so attractive . There is of course the taste factor to take in to account as an influence , we are then in to the territory of what does '' that's good for me '' taste like to a fish ? . What we need here is an articulate fish to tell us what is really going on

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Mike Tony Miles says the same thing as Fred , Read paragraph 4 on the link .

fishingwarehouse.co.uk - fishing news, views, information & a secure tackle shop - the top UK angling site!

Just had a scan through that link Joe , thanks . What Tony Miles is saying in effect is that it is the uniqueness of a designer bait that will lead to it consistently catching , however creating and maintaining that uniqueness is very difficult . In my view this '' problem ' illustrates that it is smell and taste that attracts fish , not it's nutrient value . Say you are fishing in a heavily swollen and coloured river for barbel or indeed any other species . Would the fish still be able to seek out / select the HNV bait that had little scent ? In my view it wouldn't . It would more likely either discover food by grubbing about ot find something that has a powerful smell .

 

[Fred Wilton]

Simon is of course right it is possible to use and catch on an HNV bait without using a smell,I did such a trial in 1971 on a lake to prove conclusively to myself that it was the nutritional content of the bait and not it's smell that was attracting the fish.Equally I don't believe an smell is a 'natural fish attractor',twice I have been told of such a smell and in both cases time proved them wrong.However I do believe that fish will use a smell they associate with food to locate it's whereabouts.I want a smell that is unique to the bait I use so that the fish having picked it up initially out of curiosity and digested and received a nutritional benefit will recognise the smell and use it to locate the food that gave them that boost,If someone uses the same smell in a less nutritious bait the fish using the smell to locate it will sometimes pick up a good bait and sometimes one not so nutritious and believe me this causes a problem.
The best way to illustrate this is to explain what happened in a real occurrence.
My mates and I began to use a new smell in 1993 and over the years continued to use it as the bait was gradually improved,baiting different rivers some near home some during holidays until we had we had various stretches on 12 different rivers where the fish knew the bait.With a good bait there is no need to constantly top it up,and we often did not fish a place for a year or two but caught whenever we went back.Then in 1999 our catches began to drop off until even though fish were getting bigger all over the country our tally of double figure barbell was getting less each year until it was less than 50% of what it was a few years earlier.Then in 2004 we knew why,someone who had been invited to guest with one of our crowd had attempted to copy my bait and had given samples of my bait to others until one of them realised what the smell so he use it in his copy as did his friends.We had no option but to get a new smell and using this with the same base mix and lightly baiting some of the original stretches our catches on these returned to normal.Unfortunately circumstances mean we will never again be able to fish all twelve rivers......Fred

 

[Jeff Collins]

Hi Fred,
Are you the guy that woody calls fred the bait????

 

[Fred Wilton]

I'm afraid so Jeff,Woody is a nice bloke and a damn good angler.....Fred

 

[Richard Bruton]

Anybody watching the, "Winter watch" programme on the BBC a few nights a go?

They carried out an experiment with mice placing grapes, a lump of cheese and some nuts in three adjacent containers to see which the mice would choose. I apologise, as I can't remember exactly the figures but I believe it was as follows:-

Grape` 1
Cheese 0
Nuts 46

They attributed this to HNV recognition. Very interesting as you would think that the mice would have shown a preference for the cheese due to its strong smell or possibly its high fat content but they argued (on the programme that the mice chose the nuts as they had the higher calorific content). Very interesting experiment; of course, it could just be that mice recognise nuts more than the other two choices?