In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

[Mark Anderson]

Hi men ,

Iv always dabbled in bait , and ingrediants , looking for the holy grail possibly , but along the way hoping that the fish i stick a bit of metal in will gain something from any bait i put out there , its a two way thing .

Never found the holy grail , nobody will , been close with baits other people have perfected , baits that seem to be more than acceptable to the fish , but its their world we drop into , their rules , their choices .

So heres a question , if you found the holy grail , a bait you just pulled on a hair and it was a bite a chuck , but really did the fish real harm in the long run , a real detrimernt to their health / wellbeing , would you use it ?.


Hatter

 

[Joe Fletcher]

Hi men ,

Iv always dabbled in bait , and ingrediants , looking for the holy grail possibly , but along the way hoping that the fish i stick a bit of metal in will gain something from any bait i put out there , its a two way thing .

Never found the holy grail , nobody will , been close with baits other people have perfected , baits that seem to be more than acceptable to the fish , but its their world we drop into , their rules , their choices .

So heres a question , if you found the holy grail , a bait you just pulled on a hair and it was a bite a chuck , but really did the fish real harm in the long run , a real detrimernt to their health / wellbeing , would you use it ?.


Hatter

To answer your question Mark . I would say no if I knew it would be bad in the long run .

I think if fishing for Barbel become that easy where it was a fish a chuck .
It would soon become boring ?
Lets hope nobody ever finds the holy grail of bait

 

[Dave Taylor]

I'm not entirely convinced by HNV baits, or at least many of those commercially available that purport to be HNV baits. However, though I'm not entirely convinced, I can see plenty of merit in the theory. What I can't really accept from the doubters is the way that they seem to ascribe mammalian senses to fish. Our own, or any mammalian, senses of smell, taste and touch are not analogous to those of fish. Not even all fish species are equal in respect of their senses. The reputed ability of sharks, and other fish, to sense tiny amounts of blood, or electrical impulses, in water suggests that equating the senses of fish to mammals is not a valid comparison. Due to that, I have little difficulty in believing that UK fish could be able to sense minerals, amino acids etc in various baits, or natural food sources, that they might, unconsciously know to be beneficial to them

I too believe that fish can sense salt along with other minerals and aminos Chris and can show a preference to some or all on occasion as a food source .
However I can't help drawing comparisons to other creatures who show distinct preferences for highly nutritious food such as an otter just eating the heart and liver of a large fish, or a bear just eating the brains of a salmon.
There are plenty of examples of creatures taking salt as a natural supplement to their diet.
I know larger chub prefer the soft underbelly and innards of sardines although capable of eating the whole fish.
I'm thinking that we should credit fish with the means to detect a beneficial food item,..... or am I ?? Fascinating stuff.

Mark,... A fish at all costs,? ... No way mate.
Agree with Joe that a Holy grail bait would make the whole fishing experience preconceived, no more red letter days, no more blanks, just the mundane.
dt

 

[Neil Smart]

To answer your question Mark . I would say no if I knew it would be bad in the long run .

I think if fishing for Barbel become that easy where it was a fish a chuck .
It would soon become boring ?
Lets hope nobody ever finds the holy grail of bait

True, thought I found the wonder bait a couple of seasons back, in the hot' peg that is not so hot now. It was a Sonubait Hallibut and Hemp soft pellet, and accounted for a fish (mostly barbel) every put in, first cast, and as you know after that winter flood it all changed, and now nothing works

What a relief.

 

[Julian Peacock]

Believe me Dave at this rate it would take many years to 'glean' it all,and of course the'True History of HNV baits' will continue to grow for as long as I live.
Mike in all honesty I would doubt very much if many anglers are using baits that I would consider to be HNV baits,I know nothing about shop-bought baits and have obviously never used them but knowing the mark-ups in the tackle industry I can't imagine anybody would pay the price that would be required for them to be sold in shops.I have no axe to grind, I don't sell bait and have never made a penny from bait and never will so if people want to sell baits and anglers are happy to buy them I can see no problem with that and I'm sure many of these baits have more food value than those in general use when I first became interested in bait.I must admit I am amazed at the amounts of bait people use these days.The biggest pre-bait I ever did for carp was at Larkfield in the mid '70s when along with Rob Monday,Bob Morris and Len Burgess we put 100 balls of bait in the lake and fished 48 hours later and caught carp,equally once the fish be they carp,tench,barbel,chub or roach have had the bait they need very little to keep them interested and we have often fished waters up to two years after it was last fished or baited and just picked up where we left off without any more bait going in first....Fred

If that's not an incentive to make your own, I don't know what is! I have made lots of bait in the past but have believed the hype (to a point), of the bait makers and came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. I have made a quite unique paste bait which has sat in the drawer for a couple seasons, all sealed up but that is now going to see proper daylight with a renewed confidence when using it.
Thanks again to Fred.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Holy grail bait?

Just had a read of the Biosource baits take on this topic.
Googled " An Anglers Guide To Amino Acids " by Dr Patrick Mills.
Interesting if you like the scientific approach and are not too cynical about any commercial aspect,... I,m off to the shed to run the maggots through the riddle!

 

[David Gauntlett]

Thanks Fred , I suspected it was a slight misquote .I am still mulling over this fascinating subject .This is one of the best threads we have had on BFW for an age .I am not a carp angler and rarely fish for them by design , however I do catch a few when tench fishing on a local lake . One thing I have noticed when chatting to the carp anglers who usually come over to gently poke fun at my split cane rod, is that often I will hook sometimes as many as 3 carp in an evenings tench session usually using sweetcorn or worms, where the carp anglers who are invariably using HNV baits are struggling . My view is that because of the large quantities of HNV baits that go in to the lake [ it is only about 1.5 acres in size ] but fairly heavily fished for carp using multi rod methods and baits, the carp are wary of the HNV baits and avoid them to some degree . I do see the carp anglers chucking tons of free offerings in as well , maybe they are just full up ?

What tackle (line b/s, hook size etc.) are you generally using when you are tench fishing Mike? Honest answer please

And, what is the maximum size of the carp in your lake?

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Paul Dowgill]

Fascinating thread ...at this time of year i turn to chub - cheese paste and bread - they seem to adore the former, what seems to me, the stinkier the more so and are partial to the latter but i have never had a barbel bite on either and, to my knowledge, few barbel seem to be caught on either. How come - do barbel not recognise them as food or is it something in them they pick up and dislike?

 

[Alex Gowney]

You ought to read Martin James book, "By the Waters Edge" Paul. He catches more barbel on bread than anything. I think the fact that very few barbel are reported on bread is that not many anglers use it for barbel. I think they will pick up cheese as readily as most baits but again it isn't one of the more fashionable barbel baits. I fished the Cherwell for many years when it was a terrific chub river but never had a barbel on cheese, bread or lobworms which I used extensively and caught many hundreds of chub on. But then again I only ever had one on meat when I wasn't actually barbel fishing. For some reason I have seldom caught barbel by mistake and considering the similarities between chub and barbel fishing that's odd. Having said that, the Cherwell barbel were pretty elusive and localised. It would be interesting to hear of peoples experiences on rivers like the Thames and Stour where many anglers targeted the big chub.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Bread hooks record barbel on first visit to Hants Avon stretch
By Angling Times
Fish Catches
03 November 2009 16:26

A lump of breadflake used as a ‘last resort’ was the key to the capture of this impressive 16lb 7oz barbel – a new record for the Royalty

---------------------------------------------------------


From AT archives Paul....plenty on cheese as well!

Ps have taken a few barbel when targeting chub when rolling a bait in an arc,.. lobs or crust usually. My favourite was a 6lb,er on a black slug.... only happened the once though!

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

What tackle (line b/s, hook size etc.) are you generally using when you are tench fishing Mike? Honest answer please

And, what is the maximum size of the carp in your lake?

Cheers, Dave.

Evening David . 6-8lb line depending on the weediness of the swim , size 12 or 14 hook . Biggest carp , just short of 30 lb

 

[Mark Swaby]

Cheese is a great bait for barbel but i have found the milder cheeses work,Severals on the Avon used to be a banker on a block of mild chedder for barbel.I have never had a barbel on a strong/stilton type cheese paste when fishing for chub,though fished it for years when younger/poorer.Barbel will take bread i had 2 in 2 casts fishing for roach yesterday.

 

[Robert Richbell]

I have looked I can see nothing that attributes hemp as a beneficial food for fish, but that is the same as any other bait apart from naturals, we just hope there is no downside. Considering that tons of the stuff is piled into our rivers I would hope it's OK.

I was under the impression that Barbel happily hoover up hemp but much passes through undigested, bit like people and sweetcorn. This from observations by friends who fish crystal clear rivers, not the murky old Kennet and have caught many more fish than I over the years.

 

[Joe Fletcher]

I too believe that fish can sense salt along with other minerals and aminos Chris and can show a preference to some or all on occasion as a food source .
However I can't help drawing comparisons to other creatures who show distinct preferences for highly nutritious food such as an otter just eating the heart and liver of a large fish, or a bear just eating the brains of a salmon.
There are plenty of examples of creatures taking salt as a natural supplement to their diet.
I know larger chub prefer the soft underbelly and innards of sardines although capable of eating the whole fish.
I'm thinking that we should credit fish with the means to detect a beneficial food item,..... or am I ?? Fascinating stuff.

Mark,... A fish at all costs,? ... No way mate.
Agree with Joe that a Holy grail bait would make the whole fishing experience preconceived, no more red letter days, no more blanks, just the mundane.
dt

Dave you say you cant help drawing comparisions with other creatures who show a preference for highly nutritious food .
Perhaps a more logical explanition why Bears and otters only eat certain parts of fish is because of the bones ?

Any one who has eaten fish will pick the bones out first ? unless its come out of a freezer in a supermarket
We all know the dangers of getting bones stuck in our throat ? and I assume Bears and Otters have the same problem and have learnt and for that reason they avoid eating all of the fish ?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Must be tough being an otter and not being able to process fish bones Joe!
I suspect that it's more to do with having a glut of food and picking out the choice bits,.... a bit like some of us on Christmas day.
Of course, fish may show a similar reluctance to process a food item with a hook attached which gives your theory credence!

 

[Simon Lush]

Maybe thats why their preffered diet is Eels

 

[Neil Smart]

Maybe thats why their preffered diet is Eels

Err Eels have bones, otherwise they would be a jelly eel

 

[Simon Lush]

Yes Neil, but they are very soft and edible, bit like sucking a lolly i expect.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Eel lollies! !
I take full responsibility for this. ..I should have never mentioned the dreaded "o" word.

 

[Simon Lush]

Very high in vitamin 'E' apparently.