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In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

Mike the actual comment I made in 1968 was that if HNV bait was widely use it would be the end of Carp fishing as we know it,and was published in an article by Jim Gibbinson.If anyone remembers what Carp fishing was like in 1968 I think they would agree this has happened .
I first saw a carp in October 1965 and wanted to catch one,in the 1967 closed season I made a bait based on the fact that Australian scientists had found that their rabbits were deficient in bloodsalts and I wondered if Carp might be the same,I fished it in a hard lake and blanked apart from one carp caught on crust.The following season I simplified the bait somewhat mixed it with eggs and rolled it into balls and boiled them and fished the same lake without a fish until August when I got a club ticket,baited a new lake and by mid-October I had caught over 100 carp.By this time the idea of bloodsalts had been replaced by the idea that carp could instinctively recognised the need for all their nutritional requirements and the HNV idea was born that the nearer you could get to a bait that contained all their nutritional requirements the more effective it would be.Since that day I have only fished with bait based on that principle for carp,tench,barbel,chub and roach....Fred.
 
Graham Young said:
Thanks for that Dave, I found it very informative but also very worrying, perhaps it was time that all ingredients in boilies are printed on the packs along with a use by date.
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Some of the contents are printed on the packs,often next to the barcode but you would need a magnifying glass to read it.
As has also been mentioned, .. bait can turn rancid if kept for long periods.
I often ask myself the question would I be happy feeding my koi with the same food as I offer barbel,... the answer is only occasionally!
 
Wisdom comes with age Fred.
Of course you can see whats happening can't you,... bit by bit we're gleaning extracts from "that book "!;)
 
Fred Wilton said:
Mike the actual comment I made in 1968 was that if HNV bait was widely use it would be the end of Carp fishing as we know it,and was published in an article by Jim Gibbinson.If anyone remembers what Carp fishing was like in 1968 I think they would agree this has happened .
I first saw a carp in October 1965 and wanted to catch one,in the 1967 closed season I made a bait based on the fact that Australian scientists had found that their rabbits were deficient in bloodsalts and I wondered if Carp might be the same,I fished it in a hard lake and blanked apart from one carp caught on crust.The following season I simplified the bait somewhat mixed it with eggs and rolled it into balls and boiled them and fished the same lake without a fish until August when I got a club ticket,baited a new lake and by mid-October I had caught over 100 carp.By this time the idea of bloodsalts had been replaced by the idea that carp could instinctively recognised the need for all their nutritional requirements and the HNV idea was born that the nearer you could get to a bait that contained all their nutritional requirements the more effective it would be.Since that day I have only fished with bait based on that principle for carp,tench,barbel,chub and roach....Fred.
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Thanks Fred , I suspected it was a slight misquote .I am still mulling over this fascinating subject .This is one of the best threads we have had on BFW for an age .I am not a carp angler and rarely fish for them by design , however I do catch a few when tench fishing on a local lake . One thing I have noticed when chatting to the carp anglers who usually come over to gently poke fun at my split cane rod, is that often I will hook sometimes as many as 3 carp in an evenings tench session usually using sweetcorn or worms, where the carp anglers who are invariably using HNV baits are struggling . My view is that because of the large quantities of HNV baits that go in to the lake [ it is only about 1.5 acres in size ] but fairly heavily fished for carp using multi rod methods and baits, the carp are wary of the HNV baits and avoid them to some degree . I do see the carp anglers chucking tons of free offerings in as well , maybe they are just full up ?
 
Believe me Dave at this rate it would take many years to 'glean' it all,and of course the'True History of HNV baits' will continue to grow for as long as I live.
Mike in all honesty I would doubt very much if many anglers are using baits that I would consider to be HNV baits,I know nothing about shop-bought baits and have obviously never used them but knowing the mark-ups in the tackle industry I can't imagine anybody would pay the price that would be required for them to be sold in shops.I have no axe to grind, I don't sell bait and have never made a penny from bait and never will so if people want to sell baits and anglers are happy to buy them I can see no problem with that and I'm sure many of these baits have more food value than those in general use when I first became interested in bait.I must admit I am amazed at the amounts of bait people use these days.The biggest pre-bait I ever did for carp was at Larkfield in the mid '70s when along with Rob Monday,Bob Morris and Len Burgess we put 100 balls of bait in the lake and fished 48 hours later and caught carp,equally once the fish be they carp,tench,barbel,chub or roach have had the bait they need very little to keep them interested and we have often fished waters up to two years after it was last fished or baited and just picked up where we left off without any more bait going in first....Fred
 
Here is a question ?
If for what ever the reason Barbel can recognise HNV bait as being good for them ?
Then can they recognise or indentify what is bad for them ?
 
Fred Wilton said:
The biggest pre-bait I ever did for carp was at Larkfield in the mid '70s when along with Rob Monday,Bob Morris and Len Burgess we put 100 balls of bait in the lake and fished 48 hours later and caught carp,equally once the fish be they carp,tench,barbel,chub or roach have had the bait they need very little to keep them interested and we have often fished waters up to two years after it was last fished or baited and just picked up where we left off without any more bait going in first....Fred
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Ah Larkfield, happy days fishing off the needle bar that almost dissected pit 2.
Mid seventies to mid eighties were great on the old Leisure Sport ticket. :)
 
Joe Fletcher said:
Here is a question ?
If for what ever the reason Barbel can recognise HNV bait as being good for them ?
Then can they recognise or indentify what is bad for them ?
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In the natural world most of what is bad for wild creatures they find unpalatable anyway, but as somebody pointed out, ragwort can do a lot of harm to horses and cattle when they eat it. As with human beings, some things that are bad for us can be made to be not only palatable but positively addictive. I am thinking here more of alcohol and cigarettes but most of us also like sweets and ice cream but it's no use pretending they are good for us :( So it is very easy to make an attractive bait that is not good for the fish but this doesn't mean those fish will not recognise the benefits of HNV bait, albeit on an entirely subconscious level.
 
Its threads like these that make me glad I decided to stop wasting my time with the internet and start doing some fishing instead..... glad to see nothing much has changed since I checked last.
 
Roman Vann said:
Its threads like these that make me glad I decided to stop wasting my time with the internet and start doing some fishing instead..... glad to see nothing much has changed since I checked last.
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Get you ! Come on Roman , don't be like that , did you blank today ? :)
 
Roman Vann said:
Its threads like these that make me glad I decided to stop wasting my time with the internet and start doing some fishing instead..... glad to see nothing much has changed since I checked last.
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But now you're back. Can we infer from that fact that you have now decided to stop wasting your time with fishing and start doing some internet stuff? :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Offer a border collie (arguably the smartest dog) the choice between a bar of chocolate (which is really bad for their liver) and some dog food..and guess which they'll choose.
I posit that dogs are smarter than fish..and that fish (like all animals) eat what they fancy first (tasty), not what's best for them (nutritious).
NB...my 2 HNV 'campaigns' for barbel have resulted in bream, bream, and more hoovering-up-river-pigs bream:)
I believe that HNV catches loads and loads.............of anglers:):):)
 
I'm not entirely convinced by HNV baits, or at least many of those commercially available that purport to be HNV baits. However, though I'm not entirely convinced, I can see plenty of merit in the theory. What I can't really accept from the doubters is the way that they seem to ascribe mammalian senses to fish. Our own, or any mammalian, senses of smell, taste and touch are not analogous to those of fish. Not even all fish species are equal in respect of their senses. The reputed ability of sharks, and other fish, to sense tiny amounts of blood, or electrical impulses, in water suggests that equating the senses of fish to mammals is not a valid comparison. Due to that, I have little difficulty in believing that UK fish could be able to sense minerals, amino acids etc in various baits, or natural food sources, that they might, unconsciously know to be beneficial to them
 
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