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How hard is it.....

Just to try to clarify my point a little. I'm not saying fishing is easy, just that if you get all the simple things right, it can seem easy. But even though the simple things are simple, they can also be very easy to get wrong.
 
Easy Ray , use your minds eye :D

But Master..Would it not be easier to put in 20 kilos of donkey chokers than using ones 'Mind's Eye', as I have heard this is very successful on the Royalty Fishery and does not require such thought and knowledge?:eek:
 
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But Master..Would it not be easier to put in 20 kilos of donkey chokers than using ones 'Mind's Eye', as I have heard this is very successful on the Royalty Fishery and does not require such thought and knowledge?:eek:

Grasshopper ,he who chokes the donkey , follows the way of the fool , this path will not lead to enlightenment :cool:
 
Grasshopper ,he who chokes the donkey , follows the way of the fool , this path will not lead to enlightenment :cool:

Here we go, what was shaping up to be one of the best threads to appear on these boards for a long time has been hijacked by the remnants of the 'prog rock' generation and their double talk.

Imo you guys (you know who you are) and your associations, specialist clubs and societies are actually responsible for taking what used to be a simple matter of turning up at the right time, in the right place with the right bait and proceeding to catch a few fish into a pseudo science covering everything from bait preparation, a science in itself if some were to be believed, and rig mechanics, whatever that is, to the state of the moon and what camo to wear.
And then, not content with confusing yourself and each other you all decided to start writing books and articles, making videos and even appearing on tv and confusing the rest of us.
And did someone say Ray had a much more simple approach? I've been present at one of Rays slide shows and believe me, simple it ain't!
Granted, the rolling meat thing probably is fairly simple, and selfish on a busy fishery but that's a whole different debate, but everything which goes with Rays approach is far from simple, if you don't believe me ask him about his record keeping.
The crazy thing is some of the most successful barbel anglers I've ever met have never heard of any of your weird and wonderful theories and societies yet still manage to catch far more than their fare share by keeping things simple and are probably better anglers for it.
Perhaps we could all do with taking a long hard look at ourselves, the way we fish and some of the things we think are so important.
 
What is your problem? If that is what someone enjoys doing and it is not against the law or harmful to the fish then good luck to them. It is not for us to say your aproach is wrong and you should not do this, and must do that. If someone enjoys experimenting with bait ingredients, or designing complicated rigs, and chooses to share what they do where is the harm in that!! Why is the roving aproach more selfish than someone hogging a prime swim all day and night.
There have been no offensive remarks on this thread until now.
You need to be a bit more tolerant to other peoples methods. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
 
Here we go, what was shaping up to be one of the best threads to appear on these boards for a long time has been hijacked by the remnants of the 'prog rock' generation and their double talk.

Imo you guys (you know who you are) and your associations, specialist clubs and societies are actually responsible for taking what used to be a simple matter of turning up at the right time, in the right place with the right bait and proceeding to catch a few fish into a pseudo science covering everything from bait preparation, a science in itself if some were to be believed, and rig mechanics, whatever that is, to the state of the moon and what camo to wear.
And then, not content with confusing yourself and each other you all decided to start writing books and articles, making videos and even appearing on tv and confusing the rest of us.
And did someone say Ray had a much more simple approach? I've been present at one of Rays slide shows and believe me, simple it ain't!
Granted, the rolling meat thing probably is fairly simple, and selfish on a busy fishery but that's a whole different debate, but everything which goes with Rays approach is far from simple, if you don't believe me ask him about his record keeping.
The crazy thing is some of the most successful barbel anglers I've ever met have never heard of any of your weird and wonderful theories and societies yet still manage to catch far more than their fare share by keeping things simple and are probably better anglers for it.
Perhaps we could all do with taking a long hard look at ourselves, the way we fish and some of the things we think are so important.

TURN THAT VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR DOWN ! That's better ...Adrian , although I was only trying to have a bit of fun , my point was serious . Walkers maxims are sound and something I always base my approach to fishing on . I am averse to all this pseudo science stuff , I think if you can find the fish and not scare em your nearly there . As far as barbel are concerned if you can locate them , clear or coloured water you are just about cracked it . In my opinion there is a lot of guff talked about rigs , flurocarbon , bolt rigs etc when fishing for barbel ,but each to their own . It's a bit like trout , a daft fish thats a doddle to catch with a worm , so lets make it a challenge by trying to catch it by creating an imitation of a floating insect ..But again each to their own . Now where's that Groundhogs LP ...
 
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'' First find your fish , 2nd avoid frightening them , 3rd use the right tackle , 4th choose the right time to fish , fifth, use the right bait '' Six use a split cane rod and a centre pin .. only joking ! These are the words of the master Dick Walker , follow his path and you will reach enlightenment grasshopper

The hard bit her is the first law. Ok on a clear summer river that's fairly shallow with a good head of fish. What about deep water with few fish? Or even deep water with many fish?

I think the " barbel are simple" view overlook's one or two important points that the more "scientific", for want of a better word, anglers haven't. The best example I can think of is Tony Miles book Elite Barbel and the in depth chapters on Kickles Farm. The success he had Tony put down entirely to developing a HNV bait that the barbel would actively search out. Would he have still caught these fish if he had been pre baiting with meat or corn? It's impossible to answer that but the evidence strongly suggests the barbel actively looked for a "special" bait.

Mostly, it seems, simple tactics and bait work well but there are times when a different approach is called for and sparsley populated stretches would appear to be one of these circumstances
 
Alex, I think if you read tony's articles you will find he very much follows walkers laws. The HNV bait was his effort at location, a little like Ians comment...

Keeping it simple doesn't necessarily mean one isn't a thinking angler.
 
Alex, I think if you read tony's articles you will find he very much follows walkers laws. The HNV bait was his effort at location, a little like Ians comment...

Keeping it simple doesn't necessarily mean one isn't a thinking angler.

Not what I was suggesting Darren, I was merely making the point that both sides of the debate have their points. I would be unsure that the introduction of a HNV bait over a sustained period could really be classed as location, although I see your point. The lengths Tony Miles went to, and the effort put in to catching the Kickles barbel, does, I feel, take it a step or two beyond a simple approach.
 
The hard bit her is the first law. Ok on a clear summer river that's fairly shallow with a good head of fish. What about deep water with few fish? Or even deep water with many fish?

I think the " barbel are simple" view overlook's one or two important points that the more "scientific", for want of a better word, anglers haven't. The best example I can think of is Tony Miles book Elite Barbel and the in depth chapters on Kickles Farm. The success he had Tony put down entirely to developing a HNV bait that the barbel would actively search out. Would he have still caught these fish if he had been pre baiting with meat or corn? It's impossible to answer that but the evidence strongly suggests the barbel actively looked for a "special" bait.

Mostly, it seems, simple tactics and bait work well but there are times when a different approach is called for and sparsley populated stretches would appear to be one of these circumstances


Keeping it simple has always been my philosophy, unnecessarily complicating my approach could, and probably would make my fishing harder not easier in my opinion, but...... there are complications thrown into the equation whether we like it or not, ignoring them, and not factoring them into my fishing will equally make my fishing harder.
The biggest of these factors is the FACT that fish, - Barbel are no exception - have a capability to recognise danger, and when repeatedly presented with certain 'dangers' will by association learn to recognise them and avoid them.

One major factor nowadays from when Dick Walker was in his fishing prime is that nowadays a barbel or any fish for that matter, wont get a smack on the head when reaching specimen size, we now put them back,( recent newcommers to our society excepted ) and so they live to fight another day, and will certainly learn from that experience, and as they learn, they WILL become more difficult to catch, especially when anglers rely on methods the fish have seen time, and time, and time again, even so sometimes the most simple changes to your approach can have the most dramatic effect, and once again trip those cute fish up.
But these complications, are whats makes fishing fun for me, i know i would lose interest fairly quickly if every time i went out i caught, like continually playing chess with novices and beating them everytime, there would be - for me anyway very little satisfaction in partaking, even to the point of it all becomeing pointless and boring.
Because we do what we do, and each day there are thousands, and thousands out there doing it, we have arrived at the inevitable situation where we are fishing for fish educated by us, that have at least when they reach an advanced age, - not always comensurate with size - learnt to deal with our methods to catch them, which is why some find it so difficult to catch their quarry, refusing to depart from time honoured methods, i.e putting a couple of grains of sweetcorn on a hook, with a tin full of the same as loose feed, rod tip bent to the lead, on a clear gravel patch in broad daylight - to use an extreme hypothetical example, on many pressured stretches of river the fish wised up to that years ago, as they learn so must we, and is what i find fun and drives my enjoyment.
Ray Walton is pretty succsessful in his fishing, and i'm pretty sure if there are what some people like Ade regard as complications in his methods, and approach, they are there because he finds they work, i'm pretty sure they've evolved as a result of years of experimentation, Ade if you don't like Rays approach ( not for me either ! ) then don't use them, you don't even have to read about them, or go to any of his presentations, just fish in the way you prefer and enjoy, but there's no point in blaming other anglers or organisations for the reasons that fish are harder to catch than in days gone by, that fault - if it is one - lays at all our feet, even our fathers and their fathers maybe, it's a natural progression, and a cycle that will carry on forever more. The only way to break it, would be to ban fishing for at least 10 years, and allow a new generation of fish to come through which will be ignorant of people trying to catch them, and when the methods of old will once again be brilliant to catch Barbel with.
I think if Dick was with us today, he would be at the forefront in coming up with tactics to fool those cute fish, as he always did in his time.

Ian.
 
Alex, the HNV campaign wasn't location in itself I agree, it was a solution to the location problem.

The approach was an elegant solution and addressed the five basic principals of catching fish.
 
Above Bedford!

Not what I was suggesting Darren, I was merely making the point that both sides of the debate have their points. I would be unsure that the introduction of a HNV bait over a sustained period could really be classed as location, although I see your point. The lengths Tony Miles went to, and the effort put in to catching the Kickles barbel, does, I feel, take it a step or two beyond a simple approach.

Alex/Darren....Without going into to much detail, the 'same' fish you talk about were caught 'long before' and 'after' on luncheon meat, john baker pastes, pellets, maggot, hemp and sweetcorn and cheese, and even on rolling by locals and outsiders, but the venue, swims and some of the barbel were not readily publicised or revealed, not even to other members.;)
Generally, the barbel here would take virtually 'any' bait that was introduced 'first' on the day in the lesser known location spots, especially after being left alone for a while.
Whoever got there first at the right/perfect time would catch the barbel or at least have the better chance of catching 'if' the laying up locations were found. The catching of these barbel was quite instant at times with no baiting or prebaiting at all.
Again, the same 'Kickles Farm' barbel were the same 'Adams Mill' barbel and they travelled from one stretch to the other at various times of the season and river conditions and were caught regulary in the process of doing so on all kinds of different baits..
 
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The emphasis on HNV in Elite Barbel is producing a bait that the fish will actively seek out, i.e. drawing them from some considerable distance. They may equally well take meat or corn if, as Ray say's, the holding spots are known, but would these baits have the pulling power of the bait Tony used or one similar i.e. HNV? He seems convinced it was the quality of the bait that gave him the edge.

Back to what Darren said about location, yes, it was indeed a solution to that.
 
The emphasis on HNV in Elite Barbel is producing a bait that the fish will actively seek out, i.e. drawing them from some considerable distance. They may equally well take meat or corn if, as Ray say's, the holding spots are known, but would these baits have the pulling power of the bait Tony used or one similar i.e. HNV? He seems convinced it was the quality of the bait that gave him the edge.

Back to what Darren said about location, yes, it was indeed a solution to that.

I use HNV almost exclusivly nowadays, i don't believe it draws fish from considerable distances in that a fish 300 yards away gets a sniff, and rushes to find it, but i do believe that on a Barbels travels when they enter an area with a HNV bait present it will hold them, moreover the biggest will usualy dominate the swim were it is applied on a regular basis, in order to get first pickings when the bait arrives.
I fish venues where doubles are fairly common, but equally a lot of single figure fish also, yet my results on HNV ( having been shown how to use them properly ) show a rough ratio of 15 to 1 of captures of doubles compared to singles, something i know i could never hope to achieve using other baits, as good as they are for catching Barbel, i can only speculate that with a few samples of other bait the bigger Barbel in the swim don't mind it's smaller bretheren getting their nose in as well, whereas with an HNV bait it would seem they hog the bait and wont allow smaller weaker fish to feed, there is no way i can prove that theory, it's just my conclusion using logic given my results, compared to my years using meat, when though catching doubles, my results were roughly 50/50.
An HNV bait i believe is only an edge, equally important is the way you use it, or any bait for that matter, useing it in large quantities will not improve your catches, at least not with regards to catching the bigger stamp of fish present, and may ruin your chances of catching any fish where there is a low population present, BUT NO MORE SO THAN IF YOU WERE FILLING THE SWIM IN WITH MEAT OR ANY OTHER BAIT.
It really riles me when i hear of people condeming the use of HNV, where often they believe the place is being filled in with them, and filling the fish up, an HNV is no more capable of filling a fish up than any other food, i.e pellets, and meat, and packet boillies, in fact due to it's far higher digestibility relative to those kind of baits, will in fact have a far less detrimental effect, if there has been some numptey filling the place in.
Any Barbel will eat whatever is in front of it ( unless it really is rubbish, and where it's natural food is much more palatable ) and is why when ( rarely now ) i'm fishing somewhere as a one off with no thought of returning anytime soon, i'll go back to useing meat as a preference for catching those numbers.
Like i say HNV is only an edge for a fairly specific purpose, my money would be on an angler useing meat or other wisely in catching more Barbel, as opposed to an angler useing HNV incorrectly.

Ian.
 
Alex/Darren....Without going into to much detail, the 'same' fish you talk about were caught 'long before' and 'after' on luncheon meat, john baker pastes, pellets, maggot, hemp and sweetcorn and cheese, and even on rolling by locals and outsiders, but the venue, swims and some of the barbel were not readily publicised or revealed, not even to other members.;)
Generally, the barbel here would take virtually 'any' bait that was introduced 'first' on the day in the lesser known location spots, especially after being left alone for a while.
Whoever got there first at the right/perfect time would catch the barbel or at least have the better chance of catching 'if' the laying up locations were found. The catching of these barbel was quite instant at times with no baiting or prebaiting at all.
Again, the same 'Kickles Farm' barbel were the same 'Adams Mill' barbel and they travelled from one stretch to the other at various times of the season and river conditions and were caught regulary in the process of doing so on all kinds of different baits..

Ray, i take on board what you are saying here, and i wouldn't disagree, but what of the guy whose not the first on the day or even the week or month, when the fish rapidly start to wise up being reminded of past experiences, which i'm certain they do.
Of course it's not only bait which matters in these circumstances being not the only thing Barbel wise up to, but using a different bait, and HNV being something that Barbel seem very attracted too, can again get caught out all over again. HNV is not heaven sent, and the be all, and end all of baits, but never the less a very very good bait, the options of tweaking its appearance and flavour are endless.
I'm Pretty sure Tony miles used it with that in mind, just a different bait used correctly that gave him an edge in putting Barbel on the bank, that other anglers were still catching Barbel on other baits, doesn't detract from the effectiveness of HNV, nor the other way round, most anglers will eventually come to use a bait in preference to others, but rarely to the exclusion of all others.
As you point out the fact that other anglers were still catching those Barbel at Kickles Farm, and Adams Mill, proves to my mind the rubbish people spout about HNV baits damaging fishing is just that complete, and utter rubbish, spoken by people who are most definatley not talking from a position of knowledge, but are just repeating that which they've heard from others and fits nicely as an excuse for their own poor angling techniques, and watercraft.

Ian.
 
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