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Hose pipe ban's!!

Dave, nice one, and i agree.

Rhys, have you ever tried to complete a hydraulic system and maintain an enforced (although necessary) pressure? It's a bit like trying to hold a double handful of sand and not drop any grains.
Whilst some companies have fallen woefully short of leakage targets and have left themselves above the parapets to be shot, others have done amazingly well. The trouble is, you get frost, you get leaks, you get dry and sunny, you get leaks, you get damp and green and you get leaks.
Some are repairing as quick as they can, but you really can't stop it because you can't stop the ground movement.
They are always trying to develop new materials that are more resistant to these movements but it's not that easy.
 
Can't say I have!
I take it you work for a water company then?

I'm sure they try, but do they try enough? It stands to reason that as a private company their primary goal is going to be profit.
I personally don't agree that any amenities should be run for profit, this is why prices are constantly going through the roof. There is an argument that services are run better in private hands, but I don't necessarily buy that.
 
There are long explanations for both public and private Rhys.

The fact that they have always been run for profit is irrefutable.

The fact that most companies networks and infrastructure are incalculably better now than before is beyond reproach. Leakage figures are improving year on year, and although privately owned, there is a degree of profit control and customer charges based on performance, levied by OFWAT. This is not in collusion with the companies, and is very dependant on performance and plans.

The leakage is trying to be tackled. The waste isn't, not in general. And the fact that we waste so much is obscene. It really is. And yet we still portray this Dickensian attitude that there should be as muxh as we want, when we want, and for whatever we want.
 
There seems to be this argument from the water company that leaks are of little importance as the water leaked is returned to the water table.
Is that a silly argument or not?

Damian
 
Hi again Tone,

The thing is fella, you are being a bit naughty in your generalising, insinuating that all or most of those who moan about the water shortage are ignorant wasters themselves. However, what bothers me the most is that you appear to believe that the water company executives are people who "At least work at, or try to resolve these issues". I think you will find that actually, their main aim in life, the thing they truly work hard at, is maximising their company profits :rolleyes: The fact is, as Rhys said, most of us are moaning NOT because we are being told to cut our consumption down....we accept that has to be. What we are moaning about is the millions of gallons lost EVERY DAY to leakage from the water companies own ancient, chronically under maintained pipework system. We are moaning because instead of investing some of the record profits they declare each year into renewing that crumbling network, and thus putting a stop to their own criminal wastage, the people running these companies use it instead to pay vast bonuses to themselves. (google it, check out the total wage packages of the chief executives....it's eye watering!) We are then moaning because the rest of these record profits are paid out in dividends to their shareholders....in places like Russia, China, France, Germany.....you name it. Financial experts from all over the world are queuing up to buy shares in our water companies. Wan't to take a stab, a wild, crazy guess as to why that should be Tone? Go on....give it a try mate :D

If you genuinely believe that the water shortage is all our fault as consumers, that the executives of the water companies are dashed nice people, with their paying customers best interests at heart....then you have swallowed all the propaganda that they continually push out to cover their own backsides....and I feel for you Tone. Really....I do....I am caring like that :p

Finally, would I be right in assuming that you also believe that the huge population increase in this country over the last ten or twelve years, bought about by the catastrophic immigration miscalculations that the previous government have now admitted to, and which this current government (despite damning the last government for allowing it to happen) seems powerless to stem....has nothing to do with the current record demand for water either? That it is, as you say, ALL down to us 'greedy, demanding, over using moaners?'

If so, we must agree to disagree fella. We all know that we certainly will have to cut down on our consumption, all of us....there is no doubt about that, otherwise disaster looms. Sadly, we have been gradually lead by the nose into a way of life that amounts to savage consumerism, lead by those who know that there lies the road to massive corporate profits. I guess we were a bit dumb to allow that to happen, so perhaps we are partly to blame (although hindsight is, as they say, a wonderfull thing :p). Whatever your viewpoint is Tone, I also have mine....and I demand the right to have a good old moan about the criminal behaviour of those various bodies who are REALLY at the heart of the problem :D

Oh....and just in case you are wondering....I ALWAYS shower, not have a bath...have done for many years. I turn the tap off when I clean my teeth. I never water my garden with a hose...EVER. I clean my car twice a year, if it's lucky :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
Dave, of course you're entitled to your opinion, and i wouldn't want to quash your beliefs that everything is down to profits and priveate companies, if that's what you really want to convince yourself of fella! ;)

"At least work at, or try to resolve these issues". I think you will find that actually, their main aim in life, the thing they truly work hard at, is maximising their company profits

Absolutely right Dave, well done chap! The thing is, is how do you think they achieve that? And what do you think the easiest way to achieve that is? Hmm, it's not a rocket science answer, but it is one that people try and skirt around, because the fact of the matter is, is that the more efficient the system and the network, the less loss ( of treated water) and the less wasteage for everyone. I appreciate that that's a hard concept for some people to take fella ;) but there it is.

There is unfortunately a huge requirement for capital investment. This is to accomodate the increase in population, both domestic and imigration fuelled. And an ever increasing demand on a constantly limited resource. Thankfully there are a lot of companies that are manufacturing water wise/ conscious devices, but unfortunately no one has told them that you and a lot of other people don't think that they are allowed to make a profit, chap, and charge quite a lot for them. Oh well.

Right, lets not clear up, but establish something rather integral and important here.

What we are moaning about is the millions of gallons lost EVERY DAY to leakage from the water companies own ancient, chronically under maintained pipework system. We are moaning because instead of investing some of the record profits they declare each year into renewing that crumbling network, and thus putting a stop to their own criminal wastage, the people running these companies use it instead to pay vast bonuses to themselves.

Where do you think the leakage, and the leaking system came from fella? Was inherited from? :rolleyes:

I know, because it's convenient and bugger me, because they make a profit fella, lets blame them!!!

Or we could look at how long they have been in the ground, and how long they have required massive investment for rehabilitation, and renewal. What do you think chap? Should we attribute all the leakage and the state of the networks on the private ( profit making) companies and their directors?

Because surely it's all their fault isn't it?

Or, perhaps for those with a little bit of understanding and expansive though trains on the subject, can see that this hasn't just started happening???

Bizarre fella;) don't you think? I'm most certainly not condoning the salaries, or the propaganda that some of the companies promote, and indeed deliver. The fact, and let's appreciate that word....... fact, of the matter, is that the private companies have invested ( to help make a profit ;) ) huge amounts of money in trying to save the system we have, and improve it. Improve it for themselves and improve it for supply, leakage, waste and everything else.

So, lets keep banging on about private companies and not mention years, decades and in some cases, centuries of government neglect and profiteering. Or is that not acceptable because we're not laynig the blame at the feet of capitalism? Neglect in the past is ok, because now we've got someone who openly shows a profit ( and let's not even try to imagine that the government never made a profit, either on the sale of the service, or indeed the sale of the companies!!), we've got a target we can focus on, chap!!

I know that it's easier to bury our heads, and blame people making a profit. They sit with their heads up and in the firing line. Yes, they make profit, and sometimes a lot of it. I'm not saying i agree with it.

I certainly don't agree with the leakage, or waste. Both of which have been dramatically cut in recent years. But, again, easy to overlook. Let's just keep focusing on the profit makers. Very naive thinking fella, but of course you're entitled to it.

A few things that may be worth considering.
If you can construct a hydraulic system, that's capable of delivering, and maintaining a regulated, high pressure with varying demand....... without having a leakage allowance built in, please let me know. I'll make huge profits as well. And seeing as we know how to use Google chap, try having a look at how much water, water companies put into the river systems?

Dave, seriously, i'm not blinded by the propaganda, or influenced by anything i can't see, or believe. But then neither am i naive enough not to see the profits that the companies are making. If, as you say, you checked on line, try checking the difference in profit margin between the UK and Europe, and then the UK and the US. Bloody hell!!! I'd like to own a water company here as well!!! If the government are going to continue to allow these margins.

There is blame, and some of it is attributal to the foreign companies that are allowed to own British infrastructure assets.

But lets look at where the problem started, and who is really at fault. And indeed who is doing more than anyone has done in the last two hundred years to improve the situation. Makes for more interesting reading, and more understanding.
 
Dave, seriously, i'm not blinded by the propaganda, or influenced by anything i can't see, or believe. But then neither am i naive enough not to see the profits that the companies are making. If, as you say, you checked on line, try checking the difference in profit margin between the UK and Europe, and then the UK and the US. Bloody hell!!! I'd like to own a water company here as well!!! If the government are going to continue to allow these margins.

There is blame, and some of it is attributal to the foreign companies that are allowed to own British infrastructure assets.

But lets look at where the problem started, and who is really at fault. And indeed who is doing more than anyone has done in the last two hundred years to improve the situation. Makes for more interesting reading, and more understanding.
You make some very valid points in your post, but the last two I have left in the quote above are particularly relevant to water companies.
The margins that monopoly companies, which is what water companies are, are far higher in this country than in the rest of Europe. This is one of the reasons European companies have been so keen over recent decades to buy up UK based water companies. Regulation of profit levels is generally far weaker in the UK, indeed regulation of most things is far weaker in the UK than in the rest of Europe. However this has been successful in attracting investment in the UK economy. In the terms of what governments of all colours since 1979 have been attempting to do, attract foreign capital into the UK, the water companies have been very successful. This capital does provide resources for investment and water companies have been investing heavily in infrastructure in a way the were not after the second world war when under public control.

However water companies prior to the first world war also found ways of investing large amounts of cash in infrastructure (after all the built in late Victorian times the best sewage and water supply system in the world) without relying on foreign investment or by making either the tax payer or consumer (one and the same thing these days) for it. The funds came largely from manufacturing industry based here in the UK that benefited directly. That government policies over the last 33 years or so have been largely aimed at reducing the UK's manufacturing industry whilst de regulating financial services and most other things to get foreign investment cannot be blamed on any one other than the voters who have always voted for politicians who have advocated this. Unlikely to change in the future as the greatest source of wealth that this country had during that time, the gas and oil fields, has now been largely spent (we are now a net importer of energy once again) on propping up property markets, social benefits for the poor and middle classes and tax cuts for the rich rather than investment in manufacturing.

The water companies exist to make a profit, as does every company in the country. Making a profit is not a bad thing. It is how that profit is then invested that defines how an economy benifits. Investing in property, financial products rather than manufacturing is the defining factor of the UK economy. Given that it is amazing the water companies have done as well as they have in keeping the water flowing and keeping bills at such a resonable level for so long. Building more and more water greedy housing and locating ever more offices and shops in the half of the country with the least supply of water makes a lot of cash for banks and gets a lot of votes for politicians. Re building manufacturing industry that generates real lasting wealth in the other half of the country sadly doesn't.

I am afraid that things will get a whole lot worse as climate change also starts to make the water situation worse. You just wait until some one like Alec Salmon gets his hands on Scotlands water, gas and oil. He will sell of the lot and use the cash to pay for "bread and circuses" in the form of free universities for every one etc to get votes.. Never investing a penny in building any real industry.
 
Hi Tone,

In reply to my criticism of the ever increasing profits of the water companies, you wrote, and I quote....

"Absolutely right Dave, well done chap! The thing is, is how do you think they achieve that? And what do you think the easiest way to achieve that is? Hmm, it's not a rocket science answer, but it is one that people try and skirt around, because the fact of the matter is, is that the more efficient the system and the network, the less loss ( of treated water) and the less wasteage for everyone. I appreciate that that's a hard concept for some people to take fella ;) but there it is."

I will tell you (again :rolleyes:) exactly how they achieve that (it's not rocket science after all)....they do it by increasing prices outrageously, and not investing enough of the profits back again. Take a look at this, a study done in 2001 to examine the first 8/9 years of privatisation. And that was only the beginning....things went from bad to worse after this early study was done.
------------------------------------------------------
Criticism

Water privatisation in England and Wales remains controversial. A 2001 study by the Public Services International Research Unit stated that
tariffs increased by 46% in real terms during the first nine years,
operating profits have more than doubled (+142%) in eight years,
investments were reduced and
public health was jeopardised through cut-offs for non-payment, however, this was made illegal in 1998 along with prepayment meters and 'trickle valves'.
At privatisation the industry's £4.95 billion debt was written off. Privatization critics argued in 1997 that infrastructure—particularly sewers—was not adequately maintained and that OFWAT implicitly "gave (its) approval to running down the underground network". Furthermore, OFWAT was accused of not comparing company performance with targets, not relating performance standards with past or projected levels of investment, failing to "publish information in a consistent form" and not requesting that levels of service indicators become mandatory. Instead company licenses were renegotiated to address performance issues. The critics concluded that in the "conflict between making profits and providing a certain level of services" the legislation "resolves it in favor of profit".
It was alleged that the consequences of the 1988 Camelford water pollution incident were covered up partly because prosecution would "render the whole of the water industry unattractive to the City".

Support

A World Bank paper argues that until 1995 the reforms
increased investment (in the six years after privatisation the companies invested $17bn, compared to £9.3bn in the six years before privatisation),
brought about compliance with stringent drinking water standards and
led to a higher quality of river water.

-------------------------------------------------------

So....an independent company investigates the water companies performance at the governments behest, and publishes the rather damning figures at the top, while a 'World bank'....part of the capitalist financial system effectively being investigated and criticised here....manages some rather different figures. I can't wait to see which set of figures you would prefer to believe Tone :rolleyes: Especially the bit about them achieving 'A higher quality of river water'......

You then went on to say (I am only picking up on your main points here)

Where do you think the leakage, and the leaking system came from fella? Was inherited from?

Dear God Tone, you should have been a politician man, you have their pathetic excuses for failure off pat, the 'Any problems that arise are because we inherited them from the previous government....and any successes that occur are down to us being rather brilliant' bit is rather worn out by now, don't you think? Privatisation of the water companies in England and Wales happened in 1989 man.... that's 23 years ago for heavens sake. When exactly does the responsibility for the state of the pipe network pass to the private water companies in your opinion then Tone? The long term debts of 4.95 billion pounds that were owed by the non profit making nationally owned water companies were written off by the government when these companies were privatised, to relieve the new companies of the responsibility of paying them off....by the sound of it, you seem to think that responsibility for the state of the pipe network should remain with the government for ever as well :eek:

You ended up by saying....


Dave, seriously, i'm not blinded by the propaganda, or influenced by anything i can't see, or believe. But then neither am i naive enough not to see the profits that the companies are making. If, as you say, you checked on line, try checking the difference in profit margin between the UK and Europe, and then the UK and the US. Bloody hell!!! I'd like to own a water company here as well!!! If the government are going to continue to allow these margins.

There is blame, and some of it is attributal to the foreign companies that are allowed to own British infrastructure assets.

But lets look at where the problem started, and who is really at fault. And indeed who is doing more than anyone has done in the last two hundred years to improve the situation. Makes for more interesting reading, and more understanding.


I think that all sums up rather neatly exactly what I was trying to say Tone...the government, in your own words, are "continuing to allow these margins"....obscene levels of profit, derived from continuing price increases and under investment. You say 'Look at where the problems started, and who is really at fault' I will tell you where the problem started fella....it started in No. 10 Downing Street, in 1989, when Margaret Thatcher and her cronies decided to de-nationalise everything in sight...that's who is REALLY at fault :mad: Rampant capitalism has reigned since then, following exactly the American model. Europe has gone the same route, and the inevitable outcome of that is now there for all to see. The European community is on the brink of economic collapse, a collapse which will require a miracle in order for us to survive evenly relatively unscathed. If that is your idea of 'right' Tone?

Another study done recently stated that the difference in wealth between the tiny rich minority in this country, and the vast poorer majority....has increased by a huge amount recently, and is the highest in the industrialised world. It went on to say that this increase in differentials is now speeding up, again at a faster rate than elsewhere. Still think everything is rosy in our garden Tone? If so, good luck fella, you are going to need it. Unless of course you are one of the 'chosen few'............

Cheers, Dave
 
Dave, fact is irrefutable? Agree?

Water prices, and increases are set by the government ( or in the case of non government) Quango. OFWAT.

The prices reflect the amount of investment, capital expenditure for the benefit of the infrastructure, customer service, leak repair, and other exhaustative points.

There is a strict scoring system that reflects the performance of the companies and the amount they can raise prices in relation to plans etc.

This is not a survey, not a coup, not a cover up and all open for examination.

The price rises in the initial, and indeed subsequent years reflect the amount of investment that the government knew was required to replace, and i repeat, replace in most cases, the systems of the time.

Now, if people want to live in the dark ages and start going to the river and retrieving their water and then treating it, and then treating the waste, then there is no problem with that at all.

I've agreed with the fact that this is a profit driven, capitalistic country, and i'm glad it is. If not, we would be fifty years behind the world.

Things are never as perfect as we would like them, but we always tend to focus a bit further than our front doors looking for the answers, when in fact we should perhaps practice a bit more self relfection.
 
Why have the Water Companies 'not' invested in de-salination plants around the country? It was and still is common sense to overcome the forseen problems.
It seems lots of talk and money invested in infrastructure, but in my opinion, it has made little difference to problems since 1989 when they were first privatised! The only benefit is to the water companies shareholder profits and this at the expense of killing the natural riverine environment to where the 'free' water is abstracted!
It is still my belief that the EA and the water companies are deliberately giving the impression and try and make freshwater scarce, and relay that to the public in hype. This is to eventually water meter every household in the UK saying it will be cheaper, but then, once they have achieved their goal, bump up the prices on par with electricity, gas, petrol, oil and so on, which has happened. I would also be interesting to discuss the increasing worlwide business of 'Water Trading' not just in the UK, but worldwide! Are foreign owned Water Companies secretly 'exporting' fresh water to other countries like the middle east and is being kept from the public! Blue Gold for Black Gold commonly known as Water for Oil!
It seems that since UK fresh water was flogged to foreign interests, they are trying and succeeding in deliberately bleeding England's rivers and streams and boreholes dry, to where the UK will eventually become like a baron desert!
 
back on the hosepipe ban, the water companies have said they won't prosecute anyone or even fine anyone, i have had people tell me they will just carry on, basically, it's useless, and unless we get some serious rain, the rivers will be in big, big trouble.
 
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back on the hosepipe ban, the water companies have said they won't prosecute anyone or even fine anyone, i have had people tell me they will just carry on, basically, it's useless, and unless we get some serious rain, the rivers will be in big, big trouble.

Think the rivers have been in big big trouble for years,in my area anyway,and for what use they are,perhaps drying up would be good news for us the flogging a dead horse brigade:p

Bad news for signal crays,and otters though,so im gonna start an adopt a homeless
otter fund,for those that cant find a handy carp pool:D:D:D
 
"Bad news for signal crays,and otters though"

Thank heaven for that Howard...seems every cloud DOES have a silver lining then :D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Think the rivers have been in big big trouble for years,in my area anyway,and for what use they are,perhaps drying up would be good news for us the flogging a dead horse brigade:p

,so im gonna start an adopt a homeless otter fund.

i have nice glass cabinet waiting...:D
 
Of course I agree Tone, facts are obviously irrefutable. In this instance, the 'irrefutable facts' are the record levels of profit the water companies repeatedly announce. Does anyone actually believe the excuse raised each year when price increases are announced? It's the standard nonsense they all trot out, 'The finances raised will be used to carry out urgent improvements to the infrastructure'....then quietly announce at the end of that financial year that somehow or other :rolleyes: they managed to make record profits once again. They all do it, gas, electricity, water...anything in fact that is required for the very basics of life, they will use that fact to squeeze the life out of us....god bless capitalism, as you say mate :(

And yes, of course these increases are approved by OFWAT....that's what they are there for, in case you hadn't noticed. They are a sham, merely paying lip service to the job they should be doing, they are there to be seen, to give the impression of ensuring fair play, to give comfort to the punters and thus cushion the blows. Like so many of these quangos, they are, as has often been said, toothless irrelevancies. Paid for by the tax payers of course. Taxpayers, in case you didn't know, are the poor slobs who DON'T get massive salaries and bonuses like the water company bosses, so can't afford to live abroad for specified periods, nor pay for top accountants to 'take care' of the rest. Great thing capitalism, as you say Tone :rolleyes:

Cheers, Dave.
 
So what if a Water/Sewage company stated that new 'regulatory' scheme infratructure was to be built and implemented to remove certain law breaking problems and costed it in their annual returns to OFWAT...and then didn't actually carry out the works as stated to OFWAT to fix or eliminate the problems!
 
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Why have the Water Companies 'not' invested in de-salination plants around the country? It was and still is common sense to overcome the forseen problems.
Desalination makes a lot of sense in those country's without enough water and no other options. However it makes no sense at all in the UK a country with plenty of fresh water. The problem is not a lack of water, just that the demand for water is miss matched to the supply by decisions about development.

Desalination if funded by the private sector would lead to huge price rises in water bills and if by the tax payer large increases in tax. If the regulatory system was changed so that water companies in the south were able to increase their bills without it effecting those in the north, then I am sure many of us would be happy enough to see this happen. However that is unlikely as there are more votes down south.
;)

The energy requirements for d desalination would have to be met either by nuclear or a renewable source. Heat exchangers work well on desalination plants. However these require massive investments. Once again either from the private sector requiring consumers to pay higher bills or from the tax payer...and I for one would not be happy to be paying ever higher taxes to fund the washing of cars in the south eastern parts of the country.

The only solutions I can see are my preferred option of halting development in the south eastern parts of the country and shifting investment and housing to the northern and western parts of the UK which have enough water (and will be getting even more as climate change kicks in). Or water trading across the country. The later solution requires less investment than desalination, requires less energy usage but in the long term doesn't make as much economic sense, however it would prove more popular with voters in the south east who could all wash their Audi's, water their golf courses etc.:D.
 
Things will even out eventually Pete. As soon as they manage to civilise you lot up there you will have Audi's that need washing and golf courses to water as well :p:D



Cheers, Dave.
 
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Things will even out eventually Pete. As soon as they manage to civilise you lot up there you will have Audi's that need washing and golf courses to water as well :p:D

Cheers, Dave.
We make better cars...like Aston's and Range Rovers (used to make a few others as well before Thatcher) and our golf course water themselves, with stuff called rain:)
 
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Just as an aside Pete, the Israelis produce desalinated water by reverse osmosis at a rate of approximately £0.40 per 1000 litres.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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