Combi rig components

[Chris Thomson]

Korda Boom is the anomaly I agree as the diameter is perfectly suited to the Korda crimp sizes . . .however using Korda crimps with other fluros (where the diameter differs even by a fraction) can cause a weak crimp and therefore a risk!

On your rig photos Chris did you tie the braid direct (single strand with a knot) or use the loop & boom method?

Hi, i've used the loop to boom method , once you work out how many turns around the hook i measure it and can then get the same braid length each time , easier than it sounds ,

 

[Chris Thomson]

So an innocent question : so in the rig above (and rigs that you use Chris) ... is the weakest part of your 'whole fishing system' (all that between actual hook itself and the reel) the mainline? That is, if you should break, with your hook in a fish or a snag up to the bend, where is that break most likely to occur?

Hi Terry, i normally use 15lb gr60 and that has a higher than stated bs and ive dragged logs , a bucket full of mud , even a dead dog inside a sack , and on the very few cases ive had to pull for a break its normally either the hook opens or snaps or the hooklink goes , i use the lead clips as per photo so if the lead snags it'll pop out of the clip as i only just push the tail rubber on so it can come off easily. My hook links are normally around 12 - 15 lb bs so that will always go before the mainline leaving only the hook and a short length of mono/ braid , the Hants Avon isnt particularly snaggy mainly weed issues and i dont suffer snagged up rigs all that often if ever

 

[Chris Belcher]

Hi, i've used the loop to boom method , once you work out how many turns around the hook i measure it and can then get the same braid length each time , easier than it sounds ,

As I said earlier in the thread - the whole method is easy! Easier than an albright in reality, and as you suggest easier to create consistent braided sections of exactly the same length. . . If you measure the braid (eg a 9inch length), double it up, tie an overhand loop in one end, create your optimum hair length (preferably with the bait you intend to present) and then use say 4 turns on the knotless, it will always end up at 4 inches of braided section . . . . . .glad you approve!

 

[Wayne Robinson]

Hi Chris and Chris!
Thanks for the replys. I have also thought of using those Gemini booms, but was a bit concerned about the diameter of them, but like you I like all my rigs tied exactly the same so these would help achieve that, which is why I asked the question re crimps. Food for thought! Also I think I will practice some knots.
Regards
Wayne

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Chris. Please tell me you don’t use these horrible things for barbel fishing do you?
People can argue all they want with me on this but these things in this particular design with the clip completely fixed are pure death traps.

 

[Chris Thomson]

Hi Richard , not sure i follow your logic on these clips , before i use them i cut the arm that the lead swivel slides over right back so that the sleeve only has a short length of travel before the lead can slip off , in the slim event of my 15lb mainline breaking it wont take much for the lead to drop off so im not sure i follow your death trap scenario

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Hi Richard , not sure i follow your logic on these clips , before i use them i cut the arm that the lead swivel slides over right back so that the sleeve only has a short length of travel before the lead can slip off , in the slim event of my 15lb mainline breaking it wont take much for the lead to drop off so im not sure i follow your death trap scenario

Because Chris if you use them tied at both ends in a fixed bolt rig you cannot 100% tell me you know for sure the lead will eject.
you can cut the tag down, wet the rubber etc etc but you can’t measure the amount of force you applied to that tail rubber.
It’s got to survive a cast, a strike a large lead in flooded conditions so they are on there pretty tight in order to do it’s job. They don’t belong in barbel rigs imo.

 

[Chris Thomson]

Hi , we could prob argue all day on this matter Richard so im not going to get too involved in a debate suffice to say in my honest opinion i think lead clips that are fixed onto the swivel are far safer than those that can slip off the swivel and possibly jam on the line if weed has caught round the line and the lead cant eject, my casting is always underarm range where i fish so i only need the sleeve rubber to only JUST hold the lead on and 99% of my fish come to the net with no lead attatched . Please dont confuse me with someone who doesnt understand the dangers that some rigs can contain as ive said before i do my research , any mainline is regularly changed , any hooklink i use gets bench tested to obtain bs , any that fall short get discarded, hook patterns are tested to destruction before use, i dont take any tackle manufacturers stated claims on bs, strength, abrasion resistence etc, i have spent countless hours in my garage bench testing ever item of tackle i use so i know that every hook hooklink mainline swivels are up to the job. I fish for big fish in sometimes v weedy conditions where bites are at a premium and any lost fish due to tackle malfunction could possibly have cost me an absolute giant of a barbel, i have 100% faith that the lead will eject from my doctored clips if they get tethered or caught up in weed etc. My findings of a lot of barbel anglers who lose fish through breakages is that they are either fishing too light or they havnt tested their rigs lines hooks enough to know any weaknesses in them

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Hi , we could prob argue all day on this matter Richard so im not going to get too involved in a debate suffice to say in my honest opinion i think lead clips that are fixed onto the swivel are far safer than those that can slip off the swivel and possibly jam on the line if weed has caught round the line and the lead cant eject, my casting is always underarm range where i fish so i only need the sleeve rubber to only JUST hold the lead on and 99% of my fish come to the net with no lead attatched . Please dont confuse me with someone who doesnt understand the dangers that some rigs can contain as ive said before i do my research , any mainline is regularly changed , any hooklink i use gets bench tested to obtain bs , any that fall short get discarded, hook patterns are tested to destruction before use, i dont take any tackle manufacturers stated claims on bs, strength, abrasion resistence etc, i have spent countless hours in my garage bench testing ever item of tackle i use so i know that every hook hooklink mainline swivels are up to the job. I fish for big fish in sometimes v weedy conditions where bites are at a premium and any lost fish due to tackle malfunction could possibly have cost me an absolute giant of a barbel, i have 100% faith that the lead will eject from my doctored clips if they get tethered or caught up in weed etc. My findings of a lot of barbel anglers who lose fish through breakages is that they are either fishing too light or they havnt tested their rigs lines hooks enough to know any weaknesses in them

I agree with all this Chris. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you know what your doing and that your rigs are tested and strong etc.
you know more about certain rigs than I do that is unquestionable.
i just don’t like those things because as careful as one might be with them there is a balance or a line between losing a lead on a cast and not dropping the lead in the event of a break. That line is so thin and no angler using them can guarantee the lead has ejected in the event of a break off. An exhausted fish or smaller less powerful fish could struggle to shift it if it’s on there a little tighter one day. If you got cracked off I’m sure it would play on your mind that there is the possibility she’s trailing lead. It would on mine.

 

[Mike Thompson]

I find this thread really interesting. The thought that keeps returning is the relative complexity of these rigs , some involving flurocarbon , braid and monofilament lines and lots of knots and bits of ironmongery [ swivels etc] to join it all together . In my mind all this joining of lines , stripping back of coatings etc is just building in points of weakness that don't need to be there . For what its worth my barbel set up is basically mono straight through to the hook , a ledger stop to determine where the ledger is positioned and a snap link on the lead to allow interchanging of leads should conditions require this . In safety terms if I get snagged by the hook or the fish gets in a snag then the line will break at the ledger stop which in obviously an inherent weak spot . If the ledger gets stuck it pressure will open up the snap link [ i only use small ones ] and things will pull free. I fish in big deep waters and small relatively intimate and clear rivers as well . I catch my fair share of barbel , the only thing I have found that definetly spooks fish is taught line coming straight up in the water from the lead , fish bang in to this and it disturbs them , so wherever possible I fish with the rod top very low , sometimes even under water to minimise these line bites .I don't think Barbel are particularly clever fish and if they are present and hungry you will catch them , I don't think they can see rigs on the river bed . I am not trying to knock other peoples approach and if these combi rigs give people confidence then that is very important if not vital when you are fishing

I'm with you Mike. A) I would always be concerned that one of those knots would fail and B) I have a hook length of 2lb lower breaking strain than my main line, so I know what will go if I get snagged.
I have confidence in the rig and lose very few fish.
Perhaps I get a few less bites than if I used a combi rig, but I'm happy.

 

[Chris Thomson]

If ,and its a big if , i was fishing an area where having a snagged lead would be disaster for the fish or me you can always use this method where you use pva tape instead of a tail rubber and once the pva melts the lead can fall off either on pick up or on the initial run

 

[Chris Belcher]

Personally don't use clips for barbel, either semi fixed or running. Prefer to use a simple running rig with a C clip on the lead connection . . best of both worlds, if the mainline breaks above the QC swivel the lead slides off, if the lead or feeder itself gets caught / obstructed then the C clip (which can withstand casting) also pulls apart (with a modicum of force) to release the lead irrespective of any line break.

A lead clip used properly as per Chris setup needs the swivel to be fixed 'in the clip' to enable the clip to work and release the lead. If it was running then I agree it would have more chance of this not necessarily occurring. Clips with the arms cut down and the tail rubber gently pushed on, or better still tailrubber-less clips like an MCF dumper will ALWAYS dump the lead with the absolute minimum of force. I use them on my carp syndy to dump the lead INTENTIONALLY (this is controversial in itself - different convo!) every time I get a take but this is due to semi daft syndicate rules

. . . . . .saying that I was thinking about this recently as I have snagged 5oz feeders whilst playing barbel recently (mid fight) and have managed to release them (and still capture the fish) by applying pressure from different directions / and or letting the line go slack to release the feeder from the obstacle. Whilst this has worked (luck primarily) I have wondered whether actually intentionally 'dumping' the feeder in some swims would be a good idea . . .(can of worms opened . . tin hat on . .!!)

Whichever way you look at it a fish is always left with something 'trailing' in the event of a line breakage (unless its at the hook knot etc) . . .in an ideal world (and back in the day) hooklinks were generally traditionally always of a lower bs to accommodate this problem and arguably this is still the best way to fish for absolute 'safety'. However with barbel anglers generally using 2-5ft hooklinks and strong materials like fluro and coated braids a break above or below the 'connecting' swivel (that most if not all of us use whatever our hooklink presentation) is still going to leave a length of potentially snaggable trailing line . . .the fish is still left with a hook in its mouth and we can only assume that in time this will work its way free . . .

 

[Terry Simner]

. . .in an ideal world (and back in the day) hooklinks were generally traditionally always of a lower bs to accommodate this problem and arguably this is still the best way to fish for absolute 'safety'.

"arguable"? "back in the day"? "traditionally"? No Chris, I believe you've got it wrong, and your 'slip is showing'. If fish safety is your priority then, having a hooklenth of a lower breaking strain than anything up-line of it, is undoubtedly and unarguably necessary. This isn't debatable, questionable, or arguable. If you suffer a break when connected to a fish then this break needs to be at the hook, or on the hooklength. This is not 'old thinking' or from "back in the day", and it is not a method used out of habit or due to "tradition". It is used by anglers who place fish care above 'success'. I believe we can learn a hell of a lot from carp anglers (and Match anglers too), but we can't blithely cast out intrinsically unsafe rigs just because they've worked for us when fishing for carp. That is lazy thinking, 'force of habit', and small-minded parochialism to my mind. And it is wrong. Barbel anglers that use free running rigs are not being old-fashioned, they are putting fish safety first and not blindly/unthinkingly adopting the latest rig/rigs of the carp world's icons and demigods.
Strong words maybe, but I stand by them.

 

[Chris Thomson]

I could play devils advocate here and say that failure to test , test and test again your knots , line bs, hooks, swivels and any other components you decide to use on your set is lazy and short sighted . I dont trust manufacturers stated claims on line strengths or hook strength and as i previously stated i bench test time and time again lines hooks etc. I test hooklinks with various knots , do abrasion tests , each rig i tie is pulled almost to breaking point before i use it. I have 100% faith in my ability to tie domhoffs, palomars, mahins, grinners , albrights, whatever is the best knot for the line/hooklink i tie so regardless of how many knots i use in a rig or whatever its construction i have 100% confidence that it will land the biggest fish in the river im on . I have no doubt that a running rig with a hooklink bs lower than the mainline is the safest way but if you decide to use another format of rig/material it is your responsibility not the manufacturers to make sure that the rig you use and the components you use to construct it are fundamentally strong enough and safe enough to do the job . IMO

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

In terms of hook lengths and safety . I think it is in arguable that this part of a 'rig' needs to be a lower breaking strain than the mainline or have a built in weakness[ like a ledger stop] so that if you are snagged up and have to pull for a break then this is where the line will part . Having followed a number of these threads over the years the one thing I have noticed is that braid seems to be much more unpredictable / unreliable in when it will break compared to its claimed breaking strain .Surely you need to have a hooklink that will part somewhere near its claimed breaking strain otherwise the pull for a break failsafe aspect becomes unreliable . This is why I would think mono is better/safer than braid as a hook length as, although not totally consistent , it tends to break nearer to the claimed breaking strain . I seem to recall someone putting up some charts on here to back this up

 

[Chris Belcher]

"arguable"? "back in the day"? "traditionally"? No Chris, I believe you've got it wrong, and your 'slip is showing'. If fish safety is your priority then, having a hooklenth of a lower breaking strain than anything up-line of it, is undoubtedly and unarguably necessary. This isn't debatable, questionable, or arguable. If you suffer a break when connected to a fish then this break needs to be at the hook, or on the hooklength. This is not 'old thinking' or from "back in the day", and it is not a method used out of habit or due to "tradition". It is used by anglers who place fish care above 'success'. I believe we can learn a hell of a lot from carp anglers (and Match anglers too), but we can't blithely cast out intrinsically unsafe rigs just because they've worked for us when fishing for carp. That is lazy thinking, 'force of habit', and small-minded parochialism to my mind. And it is wrong. Barbel anglers that use free running rigs are not being old-fashioned, they are putting fish safety first and not blindly/unthinkingly adopting the latest rig/rigs of the carp world's icons and demigods.
Strong words maybe, but I stand by them.

Hi Terry - Loving the hornets nest!

I'm not in disagreement with you esp with regards running rigs, however you may have lost the gyst of my commentary with regards safe clip use specifically. . .

Disregarding lead/feeder attachments for the moment, accept if you use 15lb mono mainline and a 8lb mono hooklink and all knots are sound then all other things being equal the hooklink is the weakest part of the equation and is generally more likely to go first. . . .however my point was that irrespective of this barbel hooklinks can be between 2-5' . . .that's a lot of hooklink to be trailing, whether you've dumped your lead or not and whether you use mono, braid or even horsehair/silkworm gut the likelihood of it snagging post breaking is significant. . .or do you just feel ok that because the hooklinks 'gone' the fish will be automatically ok and you've saved your mainline. . .?

In addition, and to all those using a single length of coated braid . . .the lowest you can buy these days is generally 10lb, that doesn't necessarily equate that by using 15lb, or even 18lb mono mainline that the coated braid hooklink will snap first in the event of a snag, or even a super violent take . . . It could go at the braided knot to the hook or swivel (if poorly tied) but with anti-slip and anti abrasive properties of thick coated braids this is even more unlikely - in my experience the mainline will generally break first . . . . . . . . .just sayin!

With regards 'ultimate' fish safety in carp fishing (which has 'possibly' been in the doctrine or at the very least more widely publicised doctrine of carp anglers for a LOT longer IMO) - why are hooklinks in this instance now generally the opposite of the traditional adage and usually always of a higher breaking strain these days. . .? Not only can stiffer materials create more effective hooking potential (are more difficult to spit out) but maybe because (and this is linked to my previous point) is that the hooklinks are generally a LOT shorter - between 3-10" as a rule of thumb. In the event of a snag / problem we WANT our lead to drop and worst case we WANT our mainline (which is usually always of a lighter BS) to break as close to the connection point as possible . . . this way all the fish is trailing is a much less snaggable, 3-10" hooklink which over time should be easier to shift . . . .arguably certainly easier and less dangerous than a 4' length of 8lb Drennan Double Strength . . . . . .IMO . .!

Food for thought or tin hat time . .? . . .AND, does this actually prove a point for combi rigs from a fish safety perspective, on the dictat that they are used with a lower bs braid and that the angler is 'looking' for a break at this point (as well as ensuring a shorter trailing hooklink) . . .???

 

[Terry Simner]

Hi Terry - Loving the hornets nest!

I'm not in disagreement with you esp with regards running rigs, however you may have lost the gyst of my commentary with regards safe clip use specifically. . .

Disregarding lead/feeder attachments for the moment, accept if you use 15lb mono mainline and a 8lb mono hooklink and all knots are sound then all other things being equal the hooklink is the weakest part of the equation and is generally more likely to go first. . . .however my point was that irrespective of this barbel hooklinks can be between 2-5' . . .that's a lot of hooklink to be trailing, whether you've dumped your lead or not and whether you use mono, braid or even horsehair/silkworm gut the likelihood of it snagging post capture is significant. . .or do you just feel ok that because the hooklinks 'gone' the fish will be automatically ok and you've saved your mainline. . .?

In addition, and to all those using a single length of coated braid . . .the lowest you can buy these days is generally 10lb, that doesn't necessarily equate that by using 15lb, or even 18lb mono mainline that the coated braid hooklink will snap first in the event of a snag, or even a super violent take . . . It could go at the braided knot to the hook or swivel (if poorly tied) but with anti-slip and anti abrasive properties of thick coated braids this is even more unlikely - in my experience the mainline will generally break first . . . . . . . . .just sayin!

With regards 'ultimate' fish safety in carp fishing (which has 'possibly' been in the doctrine or at the very least more widely publicised doctrine of carp anglers for a LOT longer IMO) - why are hooklinks in this instance now generally the opposite of the traditional adage and usually always of a higher breaking strain these days. . .? Not only can stiffer materials create more effective hooking potential (are more difficult to spit out) but maybe because (and this is linked to my previous point) is that the hooklinks are generally a LOT shorter - between 3-10" as a rule of thumb. In the event of a snag / problem we WANT our lead to drop and worst case we WANT our mainline (which is usually always of a lighter BS) to break as close to the connection point as possible . . . this way all the fish is trailing is a much less snaggable, 3-10" hooklink which over time should be easier to shift . . . .arguably certainly easier and less dangerous than a 4' length of 8lb Drennan Double Strength . . . . . .IMO . .!

Food for thought or tin hat time . .? . . .AND, does this actually prove a point for combi rigs from a fish safety perspective, on the dictat that they are used with a lower bs braid and that the angler is looking for a break at this point (as well as a shorter trailing hooklink) . . .???

Well England have just won (2nd ODI) so, cheered, I'll just say ... if that was "food for thought" it's full of empty calories.
If fish care is valued above success then a fully running rig, with a hooklength of lower breaking strain than mainline, will be used. To argue otherwise is disingenuous. IMO.

 

[Chris Belcher]

Well England have just won (2nd ODI) so, cheered, I'll just say ... if that was "food for thought" it's full of empty calories.
If fish care is valued above success then a fully running rig will be used. To argue otherwise is disingenuous. IMO.

Terry . . . . . . .I know I can waffle but have you read my post . . ? Not arguing a case (or not) for running rigs . . . . .but on the topic of fish safety you seem to be ignoring / dismissing my allegedly 'vacuous' point with regard hooklink length and materials which is AS important. . . . .IMO.

Not bothered if you want to go all Des Taylor on me and blow bubbles in your craft beer instead. . . . . .I already know I'm right . . .(!!!!)

PS. Much as I love England India are still a better and far more versatile team - we've got a lot of work to do before we play over there next time . . .or should we just play our normal semi retired swing bowlers and hope for the best? . . . . . .(metaphor intentional . . )

 

[Chris Thomson]

Hi, its been an interesting debate that thankfully hasnt descended into a argumentative one but im guessing that we've all got our own perspectives on what is safe and effective suffice to say although to some a combi rig is unnecessary and perhaps unsafe i always make sure that the knots/materials i use are well tested well tied and i feel effective , the ssme debate could be had over barbed v barbless hooks , mono over braid mainline but at least the posts ive read on this thread show that we are all of a same mind in that safety is paramount over fashion

 

[Terry Simner]

Hi, its been an interesting debate that thankfully hasnt descended into a argumentative one but im guessing that we've all got our own perspectives on what is safe and effective suffice to say although to some a combi rig is unnecessary and perhaps unsafe i always make sure that the knots/materials i use are well tested well tied and i feel effective , the ssme debate could be had over barbed v barbless hooks , mono over braid mainline but at least the posts ive read on this thread show that we are all of a same mind in that safety is paramount over fashion

But I'm not so sure though that fish safety is of paramount importance to all posters on here though Chris. I did notice that your rig was barbless, and yes, I do have views on that ( ) I've not used a barbed hook when fishing for barbel for over 15 years. If I was rubbish at playing fish and was in the habit of giving fish a slack line, then I might return to barbed. But I see no need ... if a tight line is kept. And speaking for myself, there's no way that I could lose my cool during such a discussion ... only try to change that which might be changed, and all that. It's heads against brick walls, and at best an outflowing of "Ah, but..." 's in my view.