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Britain's biggest barbel...

There are many rivers in this country whose populations are the result of in the main stocked fish, either legally or otherwise NOT by recruitment simply because they are not suitable for successful Barbel spawning, fish do not live forever obviously so unless these populations are bolstered by more stockings they will inevitably decline and they are, Otters helped the inevitable along quite nicely, obvious but i just thought i'd point it out.
 
Hi Howard.
Yes given the data that is available i do believe that the survey gave an insight into the population level changes.

I would never say it isolated the cause/causes, although as you know I believe diet has played a bigger factor than previously thought.

All other causative factors/may/may not be relevant to a degree. I mentioned a few earlier in the thread, including crayfish/otters/water quality etc etc.

What it did highlight however, were the number of regular barbel anglers that have noted a serious decline over the period quoted. Thats indisputable. (I know you are not)

I do however think we are served badly when some, especially if they have potential for influence, ignore the blooming obvious and come up with hair brained ideas and quotes about how good things are.
 
I think we all know rivers are knackerd down here in the south east, with the best will in the world the EA won't be be able to change it. A good old natural disaster is what we need and start again!
 
Jason. Very Interesting letter. I noted the same changes around 2008/9


However I would say locally now the silver fish population seems to be booming.

It's not all doom and gloom, just a bit for barbel anglers.
 
Hi men ,

Colin :eek:, I mean Jason :D , I spoke to a class angler about his fishing on the Avon/ Stour , and other than one well known stretch he thinks the rivers have really gone backward so you might add that catchment .The obvious answer is to travel , as I was told by a right clever dick once :D , and all move to the seven , Wye, and Trent ;).


Hatter
 
And here's the thing, if crayfish are a contributory factor, are roach and bream less vulnerable than barbel because of where their eggs are deposited (higher in the water, attached to water plants) ?
 
Surely we can't disregard the observations of long - time anglers who have been fishing and observing a certain river for decades. Yes, we have to factor in negativity, repeat captures, time on the bank, rose tinted specs etc. but in some cases the evidence is plain to see.
Each river has its own unique problems, most of which have been flagged up on here, and let's be honest, we just don't know all the answers.
My local river has suffered from declining habitat for at least 30 years which has mirrored the catch rate of most species. Predation from cormorants impacted significantly on the silver fish and eventually filtered down to the pike population.
Erratic and increasingly poor flows have led to gravel siltation and a subsequent loss of the once prolific crowfoots and spawning grounds. Overhanging bankside cover is dispensed of, usually by boaters.
These things I know for sure, what I don't know are the water parameters and the possible effects regarding water quality .
To my mind it is not coincidence that the best stretches for most species on this river have the best habitat , and suffer less from predation from cormorants.
The barbel stocking programme of the early nineties has only seemed sustainable on small sections where recruitment has been sporadically successful leaving the other stretches with a few old fish.
I think we just have to say that it was a failed experiment , and the barbel have just found their own level, no thanks to the water authorities!
I'm just talking about 12 miles of river that I have been passionate about for 40 years ,... not southern rivers en bloc, .. I leave the others to those who know best.
 
Well consider that there just might have been too many Barbel in the 'Halcyon' days we all look back at, and think well there were more Barbel so it had to be better...or did it?

Personally I am not of the opinion that Rivers such as the Teme that were rammed full of Barbel was good for the balance and the sustainability of the river as far as other equally as important such as the Chub, Dace and so on.


I would much rather see the River with diversity and health rather than a single species river that we judge on it's merits purely as how many Barbel single species anglers can haul out.

I would worry if other species were in decline on the Teme, and they appear not to be, Chub are more evident and even Grayling too, so that has to be good news doesn't it? OK the Barbel are not so prolific, and that has made what we do more of a challenge, so what? How much more satisfying is that when we do catch, I guess if we could all catch 10 barbel every session we would soon find that boring too.

However there is one species that is really in decline, The Lesser Spotted Guide, in fact they are never spotted now on the Teme, this is the one creature that has suffered the most, and possibly might never recover, although I hear there are still small colonies to be seen on the Wye :cool:
 
Neil Smart said:
Well consider that there just might have been too many Barbel in the 'Halcyon' days we all look back at, and think well there were more Barbel so it had to be better...or did it?

Personally I am not of the opinion that Rivers such as the Teme that were rammed full of Barbel was good for the balance and the sustainability of the river as far as other equally as important such as the Chub, Dace and so on.


I would much rather see the River with diversity and health rather than a single species river that we judge on it's merits purely as how many Barbel single species anglers can haul out.

I would worry if other species were in decline on the Teme, and they appear not to be, Chub are more evident and even Grayling too, so that has to be good news doesn't it? OK the Barbel are not so prolific, and that has made what we do more of a challenge, so what? How much more satisfying is that when we do catch, I guess if we could all catch 10 barbel every session we would soon find that boring too.

However there is one species that is really in decline, The Lesser Spotted Guide, in fact they are never spotted now on the Teme, this is the one creature that has suffered the most, and possibly might never recover, although I hear there are still small colonies to be seen on the Wye :cool:
Click to expand...

Agree with that
 
Given our concerns about cormorants over the years and recent floods - where has recent silver fish boom come from as there were surely, or so we were all claiming, much fewer fish...On the Thames trib that i fish the large 5lb plus chub appear to have disappeared since the 2013/14 floods...the barbel, which are Thames fish, probably have not changed that much in numbers, there are not many, but do appear to be much harder to catch compared to 7/8 years ago - angling pressure?

We have no idea about the cyclical nature of rivers or even if this happens...ie the dominance for a while of certain species versus others and their subsequent decline which may be what is happening on certain southern catchments re barbel. Speaking to the cray trappers on the Kennet, they said that there are no where near the number of crays compared to 5 years ago when they apparently would rise in the water and take bait..so maybe recruitment might improve if crays are the main culprit and are in decline on this river...
 
Howard Cooke said:
And here's the thing, if crayfish are a contributory factor, are roach and bream less vulnerable than barbel because of where their eggs are deposited (higher in the water, attached to water plants) ?
Click to expand...

Are not Barbel eggs poisonous to crayfish Howard?
 
Dave Taylor said:
Surely we can't disregard the observations of long - time anglers who have been fishing and observing a certain river for decades. Yes, we have to factor in negativity, repeat captures, time on the bank, rose tinted specs etc. but in some cases the evidence is plain to see.
Each river has its own unique problems, most of which have been flagged up on here, and let's be honest, we just don't know all the answers.
My local river has suffered from declining habitat for at least 30 years which has mirrored the catch rate of most species. Predation from cormorants impacted significantly on the silver fish and eventually filtered down to the pike population.
Erratic and increasingly poor flows have led to gravel siltation and a subsequent loss of the once prolific crowfoots and spawning grounds. Overhanging bankside cover is dispensed of, usually by boaters.
These things I know for sure, what I don't know are the water parameters and the possible effects regarding water quality .
To my mind it is not coincidence that the best stretches for most species on this river have the best habitat , and suffer less from predation from cormorants.
The barbel stocking programme of the early nineties has only seemed sustainable on small sections where recruitment has been sporadically successful leaving the other stretches with a few old fish.
I think we just have to say that it was a failed experiment , and the barbel have just found their own level, no thanks to the water authorities!
I'm just talking about 12 miles of river that I have been passionate about for 40 years ,... not southern rivers en bloc, .. I leave the others to those who know best.
Click to expand...

Your quite right Dave - the observations of anglers on rivers they have got to know intimately and over time should never be disregarded. I don't think anyone is really saying that such observations are worthless, moreover that fisheries / riverine / wildlife policy has to be evidence based and that evidence has to be robust, free from bias and scientifically valid e.g. peer reviewed. Anglers observation should be used as a basis to guide areas where further research is needed.

You are also right when you say: "each river has its own unique problems, most of which have been flagged up on here, and let's be honest, we just don't know all the answers"

Long-term high quality scientific research is the ONLY way we ever going to develop a thorough understanding of these issues but sadly such investment is sadly lacking and likely to remain so until us anglers get our act together, or rather get our priorities right, and start spending more money on research and less money on unnecessary tackle (and I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard!).

Perhaps the grey partridge and the work of the Game Conservation Trust (GWCT as it is now) provides an exemplar model. The great Dr Dick Potts and his colleagues at the GCT used a pioneering combination of observations and measurements, mathematical/computer modelling and replicated field trials to develop and test their theories on the reasons behind grey partridge decline over a period of 40 years plus. As a result of this work, today shooting estates that have followed the management guidelines based on this research (e.g. winter seed crops, insect rich crops, tussocky field margins etc.) have been able to significantly increase grey partridge numbers as well has helping other farmland wildlife to flourish. Additionally they have been able to place their sport in a positive light by demonstrating it's conservation credentials.

One of the challenges, as I see it, for organisations that might be well placed to commission such research, e.g the AT & BS, is managing the expectation of the membership, in particular the demand for instant solutions. The sniffy response of many barbel anglers to Karen Twine's interesting PhD Thesis being a good example.
Rarely does anyone research study provide the solution to an issue on its own - in fact most studies can often be a bit Johnny Nash e.g. your left with more questions than answers! But even if they don't provide the answers that one had hoped or expected - they are nevertheless a small but very important step along the road to finding out the truth.
 
Neil Smart said:
Well consider that there just might have been too many Barbel in the 'Halcyon' days we all look back at, and think well there were more Barbel so it had to be better...or did it?

Personally I am not of the opinion that Rivers such as the Teme that were rammed full of Barbel was good for the balance and the sustainability of the river as far as other equally as important such as the Chub, Dace and so on.


I would much rather see the River with diversity and health rather than a single species river that we judge on it's merits purely as how many Barbel single species anglers can haul out.

I would worry if other species were in decline on the Teme, and they appear not to be, Chub are more evident and even Grayling too, so that has to be good news doesn't it? OK the Barbel are not so prolific, and that has made what we do more of a challenge, so what? How much more satisfying is that when we do catch, I guess if we could all catch 10 barbel every session we would soon find that boring too.

However there is one species that is really in decline, The Lesser Spotted Guide, in fact they are never spotted now on the Teme, this is the one creature that has suffered the most, and possibly might never recover, although I hear there are still small colonies to be seen on the Wye :cool:
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what what I think - and nicely put.
 
Graham Elliott said:
I do however think we are served badly when some, especially if they have potential for influence, ignore the blooming obvious and come up with hair brained ideas and quotes about how good things are.
Click to expand...

I trust that comment isn't aimed at me? Let's keep this grown up!

Turning into a good thread with some useful input.
 
Neil Smart said:
Well consider that there just might have been too many Barbel in the 'Halcyon' days we all look back at, and think well there were more Barbel so it had to be better...or did it?

Personally I am not of the opinion that Rivers such as the Teme that were rammed full of Barbel was good for the balance and the sustainability of the river as far as other equally as important such as the Chub, Dace and so on.


I would much rather see the River with diversity and health rather than a single species river that we judge on it's merits purely as how many Barbel single species anglers can haul out.

I would worry if other species were in decline on the Teme, and they appear not to be, Chub are more evident and even Grayling too, so that has to be good news doesn't it? OK the Barbel are not so prolific, and that has made what we do more of a challenge, so what? How much more satisfying is that when we do catch, I guess if we could all catch 10 barbel every session we would soon find that boring too.

However there is one species that is really in decline, The Lesser Spotted Guide, in fact they are never spotted now on the Teme, this is the one creature that has suffered the most, and possibly might never recover, although I hear there are still small colonies to be seen on the Wye :cool:
Click to expand...

I have very often thought that Neil..Well put..
I admit I am selfish and don't like seeing big fish being killed by Giant river Rats, they spoil my enjoyment..

Thats the trouble when you become focused on one species, you become selfish and don't take into account the bigger picture..

Some rivers stock of Barbel have simply gone and that's that im afraid..

The Golden Years are over..
 
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