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Angling Times otter article
- Thread starter Steve Lewis
- Start date
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
Not sure Terry.
The reasons Rhys puts forward are all plausible.
The buzzard population has grown exponentially in my neck of the woods. 30 years ago they were confined to a few marginal corners of the county, now they are almost everywhere. With this they have certainly become more tolerant of human presence, they will remain perched and you can get within 25-30 yards before they fly off, whereas if you couldn't get within 100 yards of one 20 years ago. The will now perch on a fencepost at the end of the garden which was unthinkable in the past. 10 years back I got aggressively mobbed by a pair down towards the Wrekin, stooping down from height to within yards of me. Bit of a nervy experience to say the least! I'm told that historically aggressive buzzards would have been quickly bumped off so the aggressive trait bred out of them...maybe the same principal applied with otters. Ones that got to close to people got bumped off or fell pray to the hunt so those traits bred out of the population and maybe its crept back in?
But, I do wonder if some of the reports of these 'brazen' otters are slightly exaggerated?
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
I wish that was the case round here Terry. I've never seen so many walkers and cyclists as I have in the last year.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
I'm 5 mins walk from the river Severn, I've only ever seen them when out fishing in the sticks, never seen one in the town. There was one spotted in the day a couple of years back in the town, that's about it.
Obviously must be different round here as in some places it sounds like they're queuing outside Tesco's!
Obviously must be different round here as in some places it sounds like they're queuing outside Tesco's!
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
In these cases, I'd say the camera doesn't lie.
Yes, we're got loads of buzzards in the Severn valley ...usually wheeling high, but regularly on top of telegraph poles etc. But this has been a gradual process, over 20 years or so I guess. But they are still very much 'on guard'. I have badgers, deer, rabbits, and foxes regularly in my garden, but no buzzards.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
Wild or illegally released hand reared?
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
I take a less pessimistic view Mike and your description of angling is exactly out of the antis text book, though I appreciate that is why you used it.
I disagree that the non angling public will be up in arms, they are largely indifferent. Scare stories like you have mentioned have been around for the past 30 years or more and I think a craven apologist attitude towards our sport is much more dangerous than standing up for it and saying what we think. Obviously an otter cull is not going to win much neutral support, and probably not a great deal of angling support, but pointing out the damage otter predation can do is certainly acceptable. This not demonising them, it is simply stating easily proven facts. To pretend otherwise so as not to upset the neutrals is taking an appeasing stance which instantly puts angling on the back foot.. Otter predation can be highlighted without the need for demanding a cull, and I think the general public should be aware that there is also a negative side to increased otter numbers.
You can't compare angling to fox hunting, that was on a knife edge for many years before it got banned and, except for the diehard Campaign for the Abolition of Angling, the sport has never, ever aroused the strong emotions that hunting did and I seriously doubt it ever will.
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
I grew up in Wales where buzzards were plentiful and believe me the swooping and mobbing in spring time was not uncommon. I used to fish a small stream for trout and you could hear the buzzards wing beats accelerating as it almost vertically dived straight towards anyone in the vicinity of it's nest. Very unnerving! Not seen it happen since they've become more widespread htough.
Steve Lewis
Senior Member
I've said on here before how quiet it is on the anti-angling front compared to the 90s - I think it shifted when the RSPCA changed their view from angling being a cruel sport to being okay with responsible and respectful angling. Literally the only "hardline" campaign I can remember that caught some national attention in the last 20 years was that thing on channel 4 shortly after fox hunting was banned where a group of hunt saboteurs had switched their attention to fishing and disrupted a match on the Bristol Avon. From memory hardly any people turned up to join in with the disruption and those that did left behind a ton of litter (the clean-up - carried out by a lot of the anglers who were in the match, along with some locals - made the local news and I vividly remember the match organisers bewildered at the sheer volume of litter a relatively small group of people managed to leave in the space of just a few hours). If further memory serves, what subsequent attention the whole affair did attract was mostly local and from residents who were very scathing of the saboteurs, the chaos and noise they caused for several hours and the litter they left behind - the only comments about the matches and anglers were positive. So it was a bit of a backfire for the saboteurs. Not really seen anything else before or since get that much attention.
Also I think the huge increase in more populist fishing shows regularly on primetime TV like Dean Macey's, the endless Essex Boys bantz one with Ali Hamidi et al (not my cuppa at all, but glad that it exists) and, of course, Bob and Paul talking about death and near-death, have made people realise that, actually, fishing is nothing like fox hunting or badger baiting at all.
It's a bit of a different story in the States, but they've got PETA which is much more of a hardline outfit than anything over here.
In the UK I think fish disappearing and/or rivers drying up/becoming too polluted will likely cancel fishing LONG before public opinion does.
That being said, I agree that using otters, cormorants and mink as virtual repeat dartboards probably isn't the most sensible approach to a problem. Debate - such as the last 12 pages of this thread - is fine, but I think we need to be careful about how we frame that debate. Simply saying "f**k otters, kill 'em all!!!" isn't going to land us with any sympathy or empathy at all.
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Phil Nixon
Senior Member & Supporter
Like the picture I posted of one walking into a garden centre!
Mike Hodgkiss
Senior Member
Fox hunting got banned after a prolonged and well organised campaign , main stream politicians got involved and bingo out it went [ no bad thing in my view but that's not the point] My point was that IF a picture of angling was painted as a blood / cruel sport and received wide publicity , e.g. on programmes like Countryfile or if a major political party took it up then I could see Angling in trouble . I agree Otter predation could be highlighted in a more balanced and less alarmist way , unfortunately it isn't , the cull approach is still spouted by influencers in our sport , Des Taylor being one that springs to mind . As I highlighted in another post it would also help if Otters predatory habits were presented in a more truthful way by the mainstream TV names like Chris Packham , namely that they eat birds , water voles etc and not just slimy old fish , that would help Joe Public to get a more rounded view of what goes on in the countryside
Damian Kimmins
Senior Member
I would go to the table with the tact that our rivers, being in the state they are, are not able to provide for otters (thus their changing behaviour). If otters are not to succumb to in their struggle for food, they need help!
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
I don't see Angling being in trouble from that type of propaganda myself Mike, the general public isn't that stupid. I don't see the likes of Chris Packham taking that stance either as it would do a lot of harm to his credibility. Sadly, I don't see Packham highlighting the otters more predatory instincts either, that doesn't seem to suit his agenda. I would be amazed if any main stream politicians got involved in an anti angling stance as, being the hugely popular sport it is, it would be both barrels into their foot. Angling is widely perceived to be good for youngsters and how many parents would be outraged if their kids couldn't go anymore? Politics is about popularity and vote winning manifestos. Having a go at angling is the polar opposite and not a risk I could see any but a lunatic fringe taking.
Mike Hodgkiss
Senior Member
Mainstream politicians would never get involved in a campaign to cull Otters , but if anglers were painted as cruel heartless people who wanted rid of Otters by a well organised anti group then I wouldn't put it past a political party jumping on that bandwagon . This is why a more rounded approach ie required in' explaining' properly the activity of Otters rather than just leaving things as they are now , the current situation being polarised and inaccurate from both stand points. Damians point above is not without merit
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
Sorry Mike, I just can't see any sane political party aligning themselves with an agenda to ban angling, no matter how well organised the anti group. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
I don’t think any pastime can afford to take a cavalier attitude to PR and the court of public opinion. One potentially major consequence of this anti-otter rhetoric, which nobody ever mentions is the loss of fishing rights.
In many cases the rents paid by fishing clubs and syndicates to many landowners, farms and estates are chicken feed in the context of their wider business. With the upcoming shift in farming subsidies and increasing focus on environmental management many Estates across the country looking at the likes of Knepp and considering implementing their own landscape scale conservation projects. And it’s not just about subsidies that will be fueling this, industry is already looking towards the countryside to invest in carbon off-setting projects such as woodland creation and wetland restoration etc. And the ‘net gain’ planning policy which allows developers to offset habitat loss cascade through development by investing in habitat creation elsewhere.
If your a land agent in charge of a progressive estate that’s looking to max out on it’s green credentials, would you risk having that undermined by leasing the fishing rights to a group of angry Des Taylor types who are vociferous in the demands for an otter cull? For a few thousand pounds a year? I don’t think you would.
In many cases the rents paid by fishing clubs and syndicates to many landowners, farms and estates are chicken feed in the context of their wider business. With the upcoming shift in farming subsidies and increasing focus on environmental management many Estates across the country looking at the likes of Knepp and considering implementing their own landscape scale conservation projects. And it’s not just about subsidies that will be fueling this, industry is already looking towards the countryside to invest in carbon off-setting projects such as woodland creation and wetland restoration etc. And the ‘net gain’ planning policy which allows developers to offset habitat loss cascade through development by investing in habitat creation elsewhere.
If your a land agent in charge of a progressive estate that’s looking to max out on it’s green credentials, would you risk having that undermined by leasing the fishing rights to a group of angry Des Taylor types who are vociferous in the demands for an otter cull? For a few thousand pounds a year? I don’t think you would.
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
Not the Labour Party as to them fishing is a sport/pastime for the 'common man', and not the Tories due to salmon anglers within their higher echelons. The Greens ... well they've got enough already on their veggie/vegan plate to protest about (and wouldn't want to lose a potential million votes) But the Lib Dems... well they desperately need a cause, any cause, so they've something, anything, to say. But, who listens to them.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
The Lib Dem’s instinctively don’t like banning things (the tyranny of the majority/ John Stuart Mill etc).
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
Quick Google search gives you Lib Dems banning all Credit Card gambling, and all cars other than ultra-low emission vehicles, but I do take your point. But I think the Lib Dems could be just desperate enough (but would they 'stick their head' above that particular 'parapet'?)
Steve Lewis
Senior Member
Whilst I do agree with you in general Alex, one only has to think back to the video nasties scare in the 80s to see how something fairly innocuous can very quickly be blown up and become a national outrage once a few members of Average Joe Public contact the media and their local MPs, despite it all being provably bollocks. That one incident changed the entire home entertainment industry in the UK as well as the law.
As for the Greens - they have a blanket opposition to all blood sports, but have never specified angling in that and despite several high profile people asking them the question (the last one I can remember was Martin Salter a couple of years ago) they've never gone on record and answered it. Given they've been very outspoken against fox hunting and similar in the past, but have never specifically mentioned angling, I take that to mean that they're okay with it but probably don't want to come out and say that so as not to seem hypocritical. If they are at all concerned about angling, then it's probably VERY VERY low on their agenda. Also important to note that the very few actual mentions of "sport angling" in their policies only cover things that most clubs have long banned and/or most anglers have been observing for a long time anyway (no barbed hooks, no discarded line, no livebaiting, etc etc)