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Angling Times otter article

Terry Simner said:
You are not stupid Damian, maybe in denial but not that stupid. You appear to be all for 'balance' - in the world, nature, and the 'self'. Well the same balance is attained when a fox is let into a hen-house as when otters are introduced into small/medium sized rivers, with the large female barbel, the matriarchs, the 'brood mares', taking on the role of the 'hens'. They don't stand a chance, the 'fox' will destroy. The Yang will devour the Yin (and I believe you know this, Grasshopper).
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We go from otters being part of a functioning eco-system to a fox in a hen house!
Again, how so?
 
Alex Gowney said:
The image of angling? In whose eyes? I don't particularly care what non anglers think of angling. As a person who also shoots I am used to negativity towards that as well and remain indifferent to it. The average non-angler/shooter doesn't actually give as much thought to these activities as most seem to think, and don't appear to care too much either way. The active anti-angler will still be anti-angling even if anglers themselves were breeding and releasing otters.
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I think Angling is potentially a pastime that could be put under very close scrutiny if we choose to persist with demonising Otters and demanding culls of said creature . Angling is very easy to portray as a cruel sport , a clever lobby group could easily paint a picture as the angler being the number one enemy of the Otter . Put a piece together along these lines and air it on prime time TV and the '' indifferent '' public could soon demanding a ban . Look what happened to fox hunting . I think Angling largely goes under the radar at present and long may that continue , this is why I think that shouting loud about Otter predation and demanding culls so that we can continue to sticking hooks in fish and dragging them out of rivers and lakes for pleasure is unwise .
 
But they're not unnatural, or we still peddling this idea of illegal releases of tame otters? Not that being tame makes any difference to the amount of fish they eat, but it seems to be a big thing for some people.
It's well documented that after the initial release they recolonised naturally, whether some rivers are capable of sustaining them is the problem, due to the many other problems they face. Controlling otter numbers won't solve any of them, but you might be able to catch barbel again so who cares eh.
 
No one is saying that otters are "unnatural", but all evidence would point to the fact that the present number of otters is unnatural. What is certainly, inarguably, "unnatural" is how otters are now behaving. Otters running through garden centres, cafes, along busy quay sides, people are buying fish from supermarkets to go 'feed the otters' ... whilst duck-feeding crowds are now watching otters eat said ducks! Otters are being sighted all over the country in broad daylight, in towns and cities, and that Rhys, is not natural otter behaviour. That is unnatural.
This dramatic change in behaviour must be telling us (including you) something ... surely.
 
Terry Simner said:
No one is saying that otters are "unnatural", but all evidence would point to the fact that the present number of otters is unnatural. What is certainly, inarguably, "unnatural" is how otters are now behaving. Otters running through garden centres, cafes, along busy quay sides, people are buying fish from supermarkets to go 'feed the otters' ... whilst duck-feeding crowds are now watching otters eat said ducks! Otters are being sighted all over the country in broad daylight, in towns and cities, and that Rhys, is not natural otter behaviour. That is unnatural.
This dramatic change in behaviour must be telling us (including you) something ... surely.
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I don't believe it does Terry. All it tells us is that we don't have a clue what is natural and what isn't. We might have an expectation of what we think is natural but that is highly subjective and largely formed over a period of time when the otter population was suppressed.

It has been 70+ years since the UK had what might be considered to be a 'natural' otter population. But even then Otters were regularly hunted so will have developed an aversion to humans.

One thing we can say with confidence is that the situation between 1970 and the mid to late 90's where our river systems were lacking its natural top predator was completely unnatural. And that the presence of barbel in river systems such as Severn, Teme, Wye, Warks Avon, Ribble, Hants Avon and Dorset Stour is unnatural.
 
That's a fair point Terry , and is to the disadvantage of the Otter as they are more likely to get run over on the roads in busy urban areas . In a similar vein if Otters are regularly seen as the opportunist feeders that they are eating ducks , birds, voles etc it may give the general public a more balanced view of the nature of Otter behaviour , however that would need Mr Packham or the Countryfile lot to be brave enough to make a film showing the Otter as the opportunist predator that it undoubtedly is and not just a fury bundle of cuteness that eats a few fish . However that's unlikely to happen as showing nature red in tooth and claw is rarely done with our native predators . Lions in Africa is fine , but Otters on our doorsteps gobbling songbirds and water voles not so appealing .....
 
I am convinced if pollution and abstraction were stopped on the Upper Thames and its tributaries barbel would return and fishing would improve enormously. It would be foolish to expect it to be like the pre otter days but at least there would be some hope for a barbel.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I don't believe it does Terry. All it tells us is that we don't have a clue what is natural and what isn't. We might have an expectation of what we think is natural but that is highly subjective and largely formed over a period of time when the otter population was suppressed.

It has been 70+ years since the UK had what might be considered to be a 'natural' otter population. But even then Otters were regularly hunted so will have developed an aversion to humans.

One thing we can say with confidence is that the situation between 1970 and the mid to late 90's where our river systems were lacking its natural top predator was completely unnatural. And that the presence of barbel in river systems such as Severn, Teme, Wye, Warks Avon, Ribble, Hants Avon and Dorset Stour is unnatural.
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There's much (apparent) truth in your post Joe, but ... I could maybe buy into your 'natural course of events' (natural proliferation) if this dramatic increase in otter numbers, and dramatic change in their behaviour, had occurred over a (say) 20-30 years period. But that is not the case. Otters more less wiped out several small/medium sized river in the 2000-2015 period, but they still behaved more or less furtively. But in the last 2 years they've gone from furtive to brazen. Why is this Joe ... how do so many of these 'wild animals' go from shy, retiring, furtive, and mostly nocturnal creatures to frequenters of Tesco car parks at noon and tripping customers up in garden centres?
 
Terry Simner said:
No one is saying that otters are "unnatural", but all evidence would point to the fact that the present number of otters is unnatural. What is certainly, inarguably, "unnatural" is how otters are now behaving. Otters running through garden centres, cafes, along busy quay sides, people are buying fish from supermarkets to go 'feed the otters' ... whilst duck-feeding crowds are now watching otters eat said ducks! Otters are being sighted all over the country in broad daylight, in towns and cities, and that Rhys, is not natural otter behaviour. That is unnatural.
This dramatic change in behaviour must be telling us (including you) something ... surely.
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Yes, it tells me their natural habitat is severely limited due to our expansion and they are trying to adapt.
 
Terry Simner said:
There's much (apparent) truth in your post Joe, but ... I could maybe buy into your 'natural course of events' (natural proliferation) if this dramatic increase in otter numbers, and dramatic change in their behaviour, had occurred over a (say) 20-30 years period. But that is not the case. Otters more less wiped out several small/medium sized river in the 2000-2015 period, but they still behaved more or less furtively. But in the last 2 years they've gone from furtive to brazen. Why is this Joe ... how do so many of these 'wild animals' go from shy, retiring, furtive, and mostly nocturnal creatures to frequenters of Tesco car parks at noon and tripping customers up in garden centres?
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Desperation
 
Rhys Perry said:
Yes, it tells me their natural habitat is severely limited due to our expansion and they are trying to adapt.
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Reduction in habitat almost invariably results in reduction in numbers of the species that (used to) inhabit that habitat.
 
Also as they're pushed out by parents/rivals it's likely they will cross into urban areas to find new territory.
Otter mothers will abandon older cubs if they can't feed all of them, it's not unlikely these abandoned cubs will stick around if people feed them seeing as they can't quite yet fend for themselves. As they're older cubs they could be mistaken for adults.
 
Rhys Perry said:
Not if they're able to, or try to, adapt to the new one, look at peregrines in cities.
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It took many years for peregrines to recover to the level they are at today ... and we're not exactly feeding them in the park alongside the pigeons. Plus with peregrines ability to fly they can travel between urban and rural locations in less than a few minutes. It's not 'like for like'.
 
Rhys Perry said:
Also as they're pushed out by parents/rivals it's likely they will cross into urban areas to find new territory.
Otter mothers will abandon older cubs if they can't feed all of them, it's not unlikely these abandoned cubs will stick around if people feed them seeing as they can't quite yet fend for themselves. As they're older cubs they could be mistaken for adults.
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But this massive shift in behaviour, and (apparent) large increase in numbers (and this is just sighted numbers) ...all in the last 2-3 years? Yes young otters have always been forced out of their parent's territory when they get to a certain age (definitely by the time of sexual maturity) but not into towns and cities! And not in the numbers we're suddenly seeing now.
 
Where are these big numbers of otter sightings? Personally I've not seen one for over a year and many people have never seen one at all.
 
Rhys Perry said:
Where are these big numbers of otter sightings? Personally I've not seen one for over a year and many people have never seen one at all.
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Newspapers, TV, social media, reports from all over the country. And this is at a time when, due to CV19, there's been fewer people out and about. I not sure I've ever seen a peregrine but ...
 
I have had the opposite experience Terry. There have been many more people walking along the rivers and canals around here than ever before.

I saw a wild peregrine in Winchester, or was it Salisbury, a couple of years ago. Have also seen them in Wales. Falconers with peregrines are often in Oxford but they may be hybrids.
 
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