Anglers Mail - John Bailey Article

[John McGough]

There's a hell of a lot of ostrich's about these days too......

 

[David Gauntlett]

Human beings do not decide how many otters are present on a stretch of river. The otter itself is responsible for managing its own numbers. We can introduce as as many or as few as we like but within a relativly short space of time the number present will be the same. They are terratorial and they will repel other otters from their stretch of river unlike some other creatures who will expand numbers to accomodate the food resource available.

Don't blame the otter if you are not catching. The fish are there and not only that they are not the smartest fish either. I can assure you that the 10% are catching as many fish as they ever have,

Richard, while it is true that the vast majority of the otters present on our waters today are there due to natural re-colonisation since the banning of the chemicals that caused their demise....they are not alone out there. There are unknown numbers of captive bred and reared otters mixed in with them as well. So....it may be true that in normal circumstances the otters themselves determine how many of their numbers occupy a particular stretch of river....but in many areas 'normal circumstances' are not what we are confronted with. I can't be naffed to search google all over again, but it is well documented that the captive reared otters released by the various 'do gooders' out there some years back were raised in relatively crowded conditions, due to space restrictions on the farms. When critters are raised in these conditions, natural 'antisocial' habits have to be overcome in order to survive their period in captivity, and it is said that these animals now live in much closer proximity to each other than nature intended. Look it up, it's all there if you can find it.

It is also a fact that we will never now know how many captive reared otters actually were released, whether their number were, or were not, sufficient to significantly effect otters natural habbits in more than a few areas. What is known is that the various bodies concerned were....'economical' with the truth, when offering statistics after the fact. It is also known that various individuals and groups were releasing captive reared animals for years after the 'joke statistics' were publicised....I have heard stories that it is going on to this day. It is also known that young animals from these groups which have been found injured, obviously as a result of being attacked by natural dominant males...are being gathered, nursed back to health...and re-released. Hopefully the savaging they received was enough to reset their natural behavioural instincts...otherwise, they are in for a bumpy ride

Cheers, Dave.

 

[David Chant]

I'm just pleased that Richard H also agrees that a very significant number of anglers (he says 90%) are not catching barbel as they were.

Some interesting thoughts David T. my view is also re recruitment, but if so we need to look back 10 years or so for reasons for change.

On a personal note. Never seen an Otter on the Loddon or the Kennet yet, but a few pals tell me they have. I have never subscribed to the fact that they are the main reason for the decline in fish, although I appreciate those anglers on the Bristol Avon Ouse and Wensum seem pretty much convinced.

Dave, are you Ron Chants lad?

Graham

Hi Graham

no I am not Ron Chant's lad, he must be in a different branch of the family.

It could be that there are different, or a combination, of reasons for the babel and chub decline on different stretches of different rivers? If they are not the main reason for the decline, say on the Kennet or Loddon, what is the reason? I read the article about genetic changes in roach you posted a link to and it is very interesting. Maybe a scientific study of genetic changes in barbel on these rivers is called for?

Although you haven't seen otters does it mean they are not there? Where I fish I have only seen mink on a couple of times, but I suspect they are always close by and it could be the same with otters, maybe. I know mink have been with us for years, and they eat fish, but could there be a reason for them to take more barbel and chub over the past ten years or so - just a thought.

What I find frustrating is it seems almost indisputable that otters had a major impact on the Wensum and some lakes in Norfolk, but this is not all of the story everywhere. It would appear that on the Kennet and Loddon there has been a serious decline in barbel and chub catches despite an apparent low otter population. Have anglers in the Reading area jumped on the "otter bandwagon" when we should be looking elsewhere?

Maybe I should amend my previous statement to say that otters are top of the suspect list on the Wensum based upon eyewitness accounts, but are only one of many possible suspects on the Loddon and Kennet.

 

[Graham Elliott]

David G.
Very interesting and thoughful post.

David Chant.

Your views are very similar to my own. As Richie earlier said (and I see him on the banks) he frequently sees Otters, and as I said earlier, many of my pals have on both rivers and I believe them.

I personally think, like you it's more likely to be a combination of factors. Both rivers have sustained healthy populations of fish for over the past 45 years I have fished them. So whats happened? With recruitment levels we probably need to look 10 years ago as the bigger fish seem to have survived with very few new fish showing in most sections.

I could suggest on the Kennet that the boat traffic activity that coloured the water for the past 15 years affected the viability of spawn through silt coverage. (note the clarity improvements over the past 3 years with weed once again present due to the increased sunlight penetration)

But, where a normal Loddon day 10 years ago would often give catches of 4 + fish of all ranges, that nowadays would be a remarkable catch. Yet no boat traffic????

Did those 2007 Floods cause more damage than we thought? (for sure no spawning fish eggs survived)

It's all guess work. The only thing for sure is that barbel levels have markedly reduced on both rivers.

Graham

 

[Kevin Daly]

Dave.
The last captive reared otters were released ten years ago, they are dust now mate. What we have now is their progeny and they have not lost the thousands of years of learned behaviour they are very territorial. There are no more captive reared otters being released, there is no money to rear them, there was never that much in the first place. I really do believe if the sandal wearing tree hugging bunny shagging soap dodgers had any brass they would still be at it but there on the dole scrounging mate and your tax mate, they cannot afford it. Otters are a problem for the survival of angler assisted unnaturally fat fish. It is the recruitment problem that everybody who has had constructive input on this thread has got partial right that is the real problem. If the Traveller had not become a casualty of nature, it would have ended its days not long after, the casualty of angler’s constant attention as did its sister the Pope (Ouse Barbel, not Steve).

 

[David Gauntlett]

Well...I read all the info available on the links ref. Ms.Twines work, but it didn't add up to much, certainly nothing on the stuff she regaled Crooky with. Having read other posts, I gather that the 'full Monty' has yet to be published, which would explain that.

However, I am a bit surprised that from a total of only 20 barbel that were tagged during this entire study (over what I gather was quite a long stretch of river) she was able to walk into the swims of several struggling anglers....and there find significant numbers of those tagged barbel present. In each swim The lady must be like the Pied Piper.....
I hope, to save her blushes, it doesn't turn out that there was a ruddy great otter with a belly full of barbel tags roaming about in the swims she visited

I really don't know....I guess we will have to wait and see once the thing is published in full. Even then, reading between the lines of several post's, I take the point that it's entirely possible that the young lady's job prospects would be very much improved by backing the views of her prospective future employer. I hope that isn't what happened...if only because I find such things pretty depressing. Whatever the case may be, I don't really understand how a study of the fish present in a stretch of river at any one time....can prove on it's own that numbers of fish are 'as high as they have ever been'....as Crooky seems to be assuming.

I also fail to see how the fact that there were apparently tagged barbel present in a swim that an angler was having no joy at all in....is proof that the fish have learned how not to be caught. Does ANYONE expect to catch every time there are fish present in the swim he is fishing? I am damn sure I don't! Also, is there a fixed figure (of numbers of barbel present in a swim) which indicates when (A) the 10% of elite anglers catch, and (B) another that needs to be reached before us duffers in the other 90% get lucky?

Whatever, enough of that. I found many of the post's in this thread immensely interesting. Ian Grants point about the possible connection between barbel recruitment/fry survival rates being related to the Perch numbers present...was particularly fascinating. Whenever Ian overcomes his natural instincts (to avoid these 'otter rant' style threads like the plague ) I listen....because Ian's views on anything are views I take a LOT of notice of. I agree with his belief (as I always have) that otters are not the major cause of the decline in the barbel populations in many situations. I have always though (and stated) that my view was that pollution, abstraction and the host of other man made problems that are battering our rivers are at the basis of their malaise. I am convinced that there are pollutants in our rivers that are having a slow but sure affect on the breeding success of our fish, and other pollutants and degraded habitat situations that are affecting the fry survival rate...and Ian's wretched perch won't be helping that

However, I am just as sure that SOME fisheries, particularly those where the population of barbel were basically a limited number of big old survivors (because pollution etc. had resulted in almost zero recruitment of young fish)....and certain small rivers with a naturally limited population size....are/were absolutely devastated by the return of large numbers of otters. As has already been mentioned, you CANNOT introduce a large, hugely efficient predator like an otter...into a polluted water where the fish are already hanging on to survival by the skin of their teeth...and expect any other result.

In other words, in my view, back in the days when all was more or less well with our rivers, the natural recruitment of a healthy barbel population could easily cope with the predations of something natural like normal numbers of otters. The situation we have today is nothing like that. The effects of the return of otters, especially a partially artificial return...has devastated SOME fisheries, especially those made more vulnerable by our actions . Just a natural situation? Perhaps. Certainly....if you want to believe that anything that 'us lot' have manipulated yet again is natural.

Either way, I believe that for whatever reason, a lot of fish ARE missing from a lot of our rivers...too many trustworthy folk have sworn to that, and I for one don't wish to insult them by scoffing at their observations.

I will tell you something else that is an absolute fact. If my little river, which has so far survived a whole host of dire assaults on its existence...is wiped out by anything, even if it is furry and supposedly cute....I will NOT be one of those absolutely pretentious twa...sorry people, who smiles benignly and declares it 'natural'. In fact, if anyone does mutter words to that effect in my earshot on the bank...I will be tempted to kick his smug ar$e into the river, old as I am

Sorry...got carried away there

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Ian Grant]

I'm just pleased that Richard H also agrees that a very significant number of anglers (he says 90%) are not catching barbel as they were.

Some interesting thoughts David T. my view is also re recruitment, but if so we need to look back 10 years or so for reasons for change.

On a personal note. Never seen an Otter on the Loddon or the Kennet yet, but a few pals tell me they have. I have never subscribed to the fact that they are the main reason for the decline in fish, although I appreciate those anglers on the Bristol Avon Ouse and Wensum seem pretty much convinced.

Dave, are you Ron Chants lad?

Graham

Graham Ron's boys are call Stewart, and Andrew, stewarts an angler, well into his Carp fishing

Ian.

 

[Andrew Boyne]

Sorry...got carried away there

Cheers, Dave.

You carry on Dave, it's good to talk. Appologies for editing the quote quite a lot.

What i want to know is what happens once the otters have devastated a fishery? Do they move on or simply die of starvation? If it's the former do we believe there are gangs of otters moving from one river system to the next wiping each out as they go? If it's the later - sit tight, it will all be over soon.

One of my favourite rivers, the Ribble, has always had resident otters present. I saw the dominant dog otter last season and he's a big barsteward - if any of the strays wander into his patch i don't fancy their chances. That sighting was only the 2nd time i've seen an otter in 30 years of angling - the first was on the vicky embankment on the Trent some 10 years ago, not the place you would expect to see one. The Ribble otters have been doing well and it is believed it is their offspring that has lead to the re-population of other rivers in the area and beyond into yorkshire. There will be a few more looking for new homes as friends have seen female otters with cubs this year on the river.

My point being - otters are not a problem on this river, nor are they a problem on the Trent. I can see how they have caused problems on some rivers, particularly those with limited stocks of big fish and not much else - but they themselves are not to blame - those rivers were in dire straits anyway. As someone else pointed out - if the otters didn't get them old age would have - the end result would be the same.

We need to look at the bigger picture, it's the same with cormorants. If they are so much of a problem that some anglers make them out to be - how comes i keep reading articles about the huge numbers of roach showing on the Trent - 20lb from most pegs with 100lb + possible in some areas. Do cormorants avoid the Trent? Most of the rivers in my area are teaming with roach and dace - yet i see cormorants and goosanders every day - so what's going on? Simple - a healthy river can sustain predators, an unhealthy one cannot. The predators are not the problem - it's the state of some rivers that is the problem, and that's what we should be fighting to address.

 

[Howard Cooke]

You carry on Dave, it's good to talk. Appologies for editing the quote quite a lot.

What i want to know is what happens once the otters have devastated a fishery? Do they move on or simply die of starvation? If it's the former do we believe there are gangs of otters moving from one river system to the next wiping each out as they go? If it's the later - sit tight, it will all be over soon.

One of my favourite rivers, the Ribble, has always had resident otters present. I saw the dominant dog otter last season and he's a big barsteward - if any of the strays wander into his patch i don't fancy their chances. That sighting was only the 2nd time i've seen an otter in 30 years of angling - the first was on the vicky embankment on the Trent some 10 years ago, not the place you would expect to see one. The Ribble otters have been doing well and it is believed it is their offspring that has lead to the re-population of other rivers in the area and beyond into yorkshire. There will be a few more looking for new homes as friends have seen female otters with cubs this year on the river.

My point being - otters are not a problem on this river, nor are they a problem on the Trent. I can see how they have caused problems on some rivers, particularly those with limited stocks of big fish and not much else - but they themselves are not to blame - those rivers were in dire straits anyway. As someone else pointed out - if the otters didn't get them old age would have - the end result would be the same.

We need to look at the bigger picture, it's the same with cormorants. If they are so much of a problem that some anglers make them out to be - how comes i keep reading articles about the huge numbers of roach showing on the Trent - 20lb from most pegs with 100lb + possible in some areas. Do cormorants avoid the Trent? Most of the rivers in my area are teaming with roach and dace - yet i see cormorants and goosanders every day - so what's going on? Simple - a healthy river can sustain predators, an unhealthy one cannot. The predators are not the problem - it's the state of some rivers that is the problem, and that's what we should be fighting to address.

For me, this is one of the stand out posts in this impressive thread. I can't add anything meaningful to the debate, but would observe that there has generally been a respecful and high quality exchange of opinions, thoughts and experiences-just what we should see on a forum. Great stuff chaps.

 

[David Gauntlett]

You carry on Dave, it's good to talk. Appologies for editing the quote quite a lot.

What i want to know is what happens once the otters have devastated a fishery? Do they move on or simply die of starvation? If it's the former do we believe there are gangs of otters moving from one river system to the next wiping each out as they go? If it's the later - sit tight, it will all be over soon.

One of my favourite rivers, the Ribble, has always had resident otters present. I saw the dominant dog otter last season and he's a big barsteward - if any of the strays wander into his patch i don't fancy their chances. That sighting was only the 2nd time i've seen an otter in 30 years of angling - the first was on the vicky embankment on the Trent some 10 years ago, not the place you would expect to see one. The Ribble otters have been doing well and it is believed it is their offspring that has lead to the re-population of other rivers in the area and beyond into yorkshire. There will be a few more looking for new homes as friends have seen female otters with cubs this year on the river.

My point being - otters are not a problem on this river, nor are they a problem on the Trent. I can see how they have caused problems on some rivers, particularly those with limited stocks of big fish and not much else - but they themselves are not to blame - those rivers were in dire straits anyway. As someone else pointed out - if the otters didn't get them old age would have - the end result would be the same.

We need to look at the bigger picture, it's the same with cormorants. If they are so much of a problem that some anglers make them out to be - how comes i keep reading articles about the huge numbers of roach showing on the Trent - 20lb from most pegs with 100lb + possible in some areas. Do cormorants avoid the Trent? Most of the rivers in my area are teaming with roach and dace - yet i see cormorants and goosanders every day - so what's going on? Simple - a healthy river can sustain predators, an unhealthy one cannot. The predators are not the problem - it's the state of some rivers that is the problem, and that's what we should be fighting to address.

I don't mind you editing it like that Andrew...you still kept the important bit

However, the first two paragraphs of your post I found a little puzzling, because it is well documented that in the case of enclosed waters, especially if they are small...then yes they do move on once they have devastated them...it would be very un-otter like to sit and starve. Some of the lakes they have 'visited' even lost most of their water birds and small mammals to the same furry little loves.

These are probably small groups of otters (or in the case of tiny 'carp puddles' as they so affectionately known) single otters looking for somewhere to establish their own teritory, only to find it can't sustain them long term...so yes, they move on.

Sit tight because it will soon be over if they wipe my tiny river out Andrew???? How long do you think it would take for a tiny fishery to grow fish on to the mid doubles I sometimes catch now dear chap? I doubt very much if, at my age and health issues, I have enough time left. But you carry on being flippant if amuses you.

However, the second half of your post I find even stranger, as you apparently have commented on my post while actually having only read the part you left in after your edit. If you had bothered to read it, you would have seen that my post made exactly the same points as this one of yours, almost word for word at times, and certainly in meaning.

I know my post's can be overly long and wordy...it's just the way I am, so I don't blame anyone for not reading them. However, you really should do so if you wish to comment on them...much as I had the common courtesy to read yours.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Andrew Boyne]

Dave - steady on old boy, the qoute of your post was merely to say you can get get carried away if you want - no harm in that. The rest of my post was not intended as a responce to yours - just offering my opinion. Clearly some of it we agree on, some of it we don't - again, no issues there.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Dave - steady on old boy, the qoute of your post was merely to say you can get get carried away if you want - no harm in that. The rest of my post was not intended as a responce to yours - just offering my opinion. Clearly some of it we agree on, some of it we don't - again, no issues there.

Fair enough Andrew, I'll believe you...though many wouldn't

I STILL wan't to point out though that yes, as you and I agree, pollution and all the other nasties are the BASIC cause of the issues here, they are the REAL problem, and Lord knows they certainly need to be addressed....I have always gone to great pains to make my feelings on that clear.

However, the fact that you live in an area blessed with rivers large and small that do have have healthy populations of barbel and other fish, and therefore are unaffected by otter predation...does not mean that you should be insensitive or uncaring to the problems of those less fortunate...to the point of dismissing their claims as poppycock, surely? My stretch of my river has yet to have any verified sightings of otters, but I am in little doubt that when/if they do arrive in significant numbers, it will not be able to sustain their predations...it will fairly soon cease to be a barbel fishery of any note. Trust me on this...it is only just clinging on to existence as it is.

A tiny river that has survived countless and ongoing pollutions since I was a child, and has still managed to just about hang on, to somehow produce enough carp, chub and barbel to provide intense pleasure to generations of happy souls...could effectively cease to be if that happened. Will it be of any comfort to me, or any of those others...to be smugly told that otters are not the REAL problem? I think not Andrew. The pollution. etc. has ALWAYS been the REAL problem, and I and my friends were ALWAYS members of the ACA et al....but try as they might, they couldn't solve the pollution problems, could they? Those REAL problems are still there...and so the fish have had to learn to get along with them, no doubt if they are capable of thought, hoping that one day that battle might be won

I will let them know not to hold their breath while they wait though mate...their breathing apparatus is already too damaged by the REAL problem to try that for long

Thinking about it, we couldn't even fall back on roach fishing, 'cos the black plague you so cavalierly dismiss has already pretty well sorted them out, in the river and the connected lakes. Plus the fact that roach sized baits last about twenty seconds in our foreign crayfish infested waters unless you are trotting...and they even try then if you trip bottom. Yet more 'unreal' problems mate

Never mind, back to the carp fishing it will be I guess...I will learn to shoulder the accusations of being someone only skilled enough to fish for 'mud pigs'....providing the otters don't decide on the same game plan

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Chris Jones]

Is this still raging on? Without even feeling the need to take sides, what on earth does the debate achieve? Even if we all agreed that otters were the spawn of Satan, are we going to get the legal right to annihilate them? Are we buggery.

If we all agreed that otters were fluffy little cutesies that survived on himalayan balsam, rats, Yank crayfish and "evil" mink, only eating the odd fish when they were on the brink of starvation, would we be wanting to encourage more? Probably not.

Ultimately, it matters not one iota what any of us think, or what the effects on fish populations are, they're here to stay for as long as they stay alive. No amount of bumping gums is going to change that.

 

[Graham Elliott]

The thing is Chris........if it's not those otters...................what are we going to do to take action against the/any real issues that are affecting our sport.

Do we just sit on the fence and hope....or try and establish potential causes...


Graham

 

[Andrew Boyne]

I'm not insensitive to the issues facing your rivers Dave, - i might come across that way but it is not my intention. My opinion is based upon what i see, read and hear about - just like you.

During the late 90's i was constantly being told by match anglers that the Trent was dead - i sat behind Mr Nudd during the European Champs on the vicky when very few managed to weigh anything in - Kevin Ashurst managed to win it for us with a roach fry that wouldn't even register on most of our scales. The Trent is dead they all claimed. Later that day i dropped on to Nuddy's peg, C11 if i remember right and had a dozen bream from 6-9lb and 3 barbel in the 8lb class in just a copule of hours. It wasn't dead - the fish didn't want to feed with 13m of carbon hanging over their heads and several hundred people lining the banks. I won't mention that french bloke sticking his thumb and forefinger through a breams eye sockets - ooops, just did!

Since then there has been a major revival in the roach population, as i mentioned earlier - how do you explain that if otters and cormorants have had their way? They were to blame a decade ago - yet things have have changed and now they are not mentioned. You're looking for scapegoats and finding a few, instead of looking at the bigger picture. If otters do wipe out your little river it may take 8-10 years for the young fish to replenish the stocks - if you have no young fish it may take a lot longer - it may never recover - the major problem, yet again being the lack of recruitment not the predator.

I've said it before but anglers complaining about otters/cormorants is doing us no favours - alienating ourselves from the wider community which would otherwise stand with us and help us in our fight. Taking that stance is only a step away from lobbing pike up the bank and i think we've all moved on from that, at least i hope we have.

Lastly - i've absolutely no interest in commercial fisheries or their plight - if the owners can't find enough money to employ a few local guns to protect their valuable stocks then they are obviously not charging enough!

 

[Chris Jones]

The thing is Chris........if it's not those otters...................what are we going to do to take action against the/any real issues that are affecting our sport.

Do we just sit on the fence and hope....or try and establish potential causes...


Graham

Is this really about doing anything or just interminable talk about something that we can do virtually nothing, and certainly nothing legal, about? Why bother fall out over otters? It's all so utterly pointless.

As I said, even if all the ills of our rivers were conclusively laid at the lovely 'ickle webbed feet of the otter, what difference will it make? It's not about sitting on a fence, it's about utter futility.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Is this really about doing anything or just interminable talk about something that we can do virtually nothing, and certainly nothing legal, about? Why bother fall out over otters? It's all so utterly pointless.

As I said, even if all the ills of our rivers were conclusively laid at the lovely 'ickle webbed feet of the otter, what difference will it make? It's not about sitting on a fence, it's about utter futility.

Chris...would I be right in saying you have either had a bad day, a bad night....or both I haven't seen anyone falling out on this thread so far. Crooky gets a bit wound up, but only because he passionately believes in his point of view. As for it being pointless....isn't it possible to label all discussions/debates on angling forums that way, if you truly analyse it? Do we ever come to a sensible conclusion as to what is the best landing net....the best knot for doing this or that...the best way to catch this or that? On anything I don't think so mate, we just enjoy debating things and putting our views forward. Sometimes it does brew up a bit, but I know blokes who will loose their rag debating which of their past arguments was the best One chap has actually commented on how civil this thread has been

If you wish, we could debate futility instead. For a start, what ISN'T futile Chris? Can we ACTUALLY make any meaningful difference to what happens to our rivers? Will ranting on about the REAL problems on our rivers make one iota of difference...will the problems of pollution, over extraction or whatever be solved, in your lifetime, much less mine...no matter how much we pay, or how many pollution busting angling bodies we join? Will beating our chests about how it's all our own fault make the slightest difference? Can we actually effect anything in our lives, or in this world? Did the Egyptians actually achieve anything with their riots and huge loss of life? Will the Syrians be better off when all is done? Can we stop paedophiles from existing? Can we stop murder or any of the other crime we abhor from happening?

Talk to me about futility Chris....I need a good debate

Only kidding mate, but writing this futile post staved off the boredom for a wee while longer

 

[Richard Parsons]

My meager contribution to this thread is just to echo the sentiments Mr Gauntlett put forward in his most recent post. It's been both an educational and enjoyable read and, almost uniquely in recent times, it hasn't descended into anything less that an amiable exchange of views.

 

[Graham Elliott]

Chris, you said.

"Is this really about doing anything or just interminable talk about something that we can do virtually nothing, and certainly nothing legal, about? Why bother fall out over otters? It's all so utterly pointless."



Chris. If you read through my Posts you will see that I remain unconvinced that on my particular local rivers that "Otters" are the root of the problem.


What I am hoping to do is get some ideas that may give potential causes.

From Crooky's view that everything in the river is great
From Ian G's view (one of a few, that the upsurge of perch may be a key issue)
From views that Floods may be causative
From River qualities / discharges etc etc.
From Otters habitat/frequency

If its futile to discuss these issues, and try and get some concensus, it's simply not worth taking part unless one cares..

Graham

 

[Tim Lennon]

a decline in the barbel population in the last 10 years or so has been noticed in many rivers.
the reintroduction of otters in the last 10 years or so has occurred.
therefore the two are POSSIBLY correlated.

a decline in the barbel population in the last 10 years or so has been noticed in many rivers.
during the last 10 years or so tons of high oil content pellets have been slung into rivers.
therefore the two are POSSIBLY correlated.

just a thought...