Combi rig components

[Terry Simner]

Terry . . . . . . .I know I can waffle but have you read my post . . ? Not arguing a case (or not) for running rigs . . . . .but on the topic of fish safety you seem to be ignoring / dismissing my allegedly 'vacuous' point with regard hooklink length and materials which is AS important. . . . .IMO.

Not bothered if you want to go all Des Taylor on me and blow bubbles in your craft beer instead. . . . . .I already know I'm right . . .(!!!!)

PS. Much as I love England India are still a better and far more versatile team - we've got a lot of work to do before we play over there next time . . .or should we just play our normal semi retired swing bowlers and hope for the best? . . . . . .(metaphor intentional . . )

In my view, if you are going to have a break then it is better to have that break below the lead than above it. The inherent dangers in having longer hooklinks are/is another (albeit somewhat interrelated) matter.
BTW ... although I may live in the same town as Des Taylor, and (previous to lockdown) at times drank in the same pub as him, I in no way 'align' myself with him. You seem to have quite a 'thing' about Mr. Taylor that I don't quite get. N.b... he drinks cider, not "craft beer" (I take it you mean real ale, you must be mixing up beer with gin. Easy done I s'pose)

 

[Richard Isaacs]

But I'm not so sure though that fish safety is of paramount importance to all posters on here though Chris. I did notice that your rig was barbless, and yes, I do have views on that ( ) I've not used a barbed hook when fishing for barbel for over 15 years. If I was rubbish at playing fish and was in the habit of giving fish a slack line, then I might return to barbed. But I see no need ... if a tight line is kept. And speaking for myself, there's no way that I could lose my cool during such a discussion ... only try to change that which might be changed, and all that. It's heads against brick walls, and at best an outflowing of "Ah, but..." 's in my view.

What on Earth are you doing Terry. We’ve got combi rigs, lead clips, fixed, running, breaking strains and materials all on the go here. Then you and throw bloody barbs into the mix with no encouragement.
im getting outahere......she’s gonna blow any minute

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Good job it’s not close season or the fur would be flying, or am I on the wrong thread now.

 

[Chris Belcher]

Good job it’s not close season or the fur would be flying, or am I on the wrong thread now.

Love a bit of fluff chucking . . .as long as its in good spirit . . .

Terry the OP was about combi rigs but morphed into clips - think we agree that losing a lead (and all its inherent snagging capabilities) is foremost. I like you think running rigs ensure this more effectively in the event of a break. You still haven't answered my point on looong trailing mono hooklinks tho . . .even if you do have a break below the lead . . .if fish safety is paramount and its not about 'fish at all costs' as you state then why don't we all use 10" MAX (or shorter if using another heretic item - the method feeder) hooklinks and be done with it . . . . . . . . .

In context with combis was just raising the point that if we are going to use 12-15lb mono main line (I'm confident most do) and a lighter (eg.10lb fluro) hooklink then 'maybe' using a more abrasion affected or slightly lighter bs braided combi section is a good idea . . .as if this is what snaps in effect then the barbel is only trailing 3-4" . . . . . . . .but only if you guys deem it necessary of course . . and not at the expense of catching fish, god forbid!

As for Des Taylor - apols but I just think he's funny and almost a caricature of what some barbel anglers perceive themselves or are indeed perceived (in certain circles) to be like in terms of looks and general demeanour (its a back handed but gentle insult) He was a well respected carp angler 'once' until he started to get old and wear tweed . . . . . .apols xx

 

[Chris Thomson]

Love a bit of fluff chucking . . .as long as its in good spirit . . .

Terry the OP was about combi rigs but morphed into clips - think we agree that losing a lead (and all its inherent snagging capabilities) is foremost. I like you think running rigs ensure this more effectively in the event of a break. You still haven't answered my point on looong trailing mono hooklinks tho . . .even if you do have a break below the lead . . .if fish safety is paramount and its not about 'fish at all costs' as you state then why don't we all use 10" MAX (or shorter if using another heretic item - the method feeder) hooklinks and be done with it . . . . . . . . .

In context with combis was just raising the point that if we are going to use 12-15lb mono main line (I'm confident most do) and a lighter (eg.10lb fluro) hooklink then 'maybe' using a more abrasion affected or slightly lighter bs braided combi section is a good idea . . .as if this is what snaps in effect then the barbel is only trailing 3-4" . . . . . . . .but only if you guys deem it necessary of course . . and not at the expense of catching fish, god forbid!

As for Des Taylor - apols but I just think he's funny and almost a caricature of what some barbel anglers perceive themselves or are indeed perceived (in certain circles) to be like in terms of looks and general demeanour (its a back handed but gentle insult) He was a well respected carp angler 'once' until he started to get old and wear tweed . . . . . .apols xx

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Yes Chris there is always a risk with a long hooklink that a barbel will have a few feet of line hanging from its mouth if the hook is barbed.
My hook link is weaker than my main line and under tension would break first. However my main line could suffer abrasion and also break first so a running lead with a fighting fish is essential for me to ensure 100% lead is not left on broken rigs.
now here’s the real truth....
it doesn’t really make any difference whatsoever where you put the weakest link Chris because a fish is not going to crack you off through tension alone unless your daft enough to go in undergunned.
Usually If we get cracked off it’s because a fish has snagged us and our line is entangled in or against the snag.
This hasn’t occurred on the first 6-12 inches of material hanging out of its mouth, it’s way more likely that your main line is well into that snag and the main line that’s far more vulnerable to breaking in this situation even if it’s twice as strong as your hook length.
for this reason alone I hate fixed lead ejection systems. Because if they don’t work you have potentially tethered that fish in that snag and the strength of your gear/ tests you carry out/ fancy rigs with fancy breaking points don’t change this.
the safest way to ensure your fish will be free of tackle if she breaks you off is a simple barbless hook and a running lead. Fish like that and your doing as much as you can do

 

[Chris Thomson]

Fancy rigs with fancy breaking points , whats all that about !!

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Fancy rigs with fancy breaking points , whats all that about !!

I’m not sure Chris I’m sure I read something in the last 8 pages that a lead stop makes a weak point on the hook length or something. There’s been lots of fancy rig things mentioned but it doesn’t matter because it wasn’t the point of my post.

 

[Terry Simner]

What on Earth are you doing Terry. We’ve got combi rigs, lead clips, fixed, running, breaking strains and materials all on the go here. Then you and throw bloody barbs into the mix with no encouragement.
im getting outahere......she’s gonna blow any minute

No ... no .... no .... NO .... I WAS encouraged Rich! This is NOT fair!!! It was @Chris Thomson @16.47 that threw that banger into the fire. It was HIM!!!!

 

[Chris Thomson]

As i previously posted im happy to debate this and ive been pretty patient but your holier than thou attitude towards rigs is starting to grate on me ! You waded into the thread dismissing the whole concept of slightly more advanced tigs as a load of tosh and your last post with a dig at fancy rigs with fancy breaking points im guessing was a pop at my comments on how detailed i carry out my testing, i commend your attitude towards fish safety but please dont think your the only one who has safety foremost in regards to rigs, if the thread is to complicated for you feel free to jump off

 

[Chris Belcher]

Yes Chris there is always a risk with a long hooklink that a barbel will have a few feet of line hanging from its mouth if the hook is barbed.
My hook link is weaker than my main line and under tension would break first. However my main line could suffer abrasion and also break first so a running lead with a fighting fish is essential for me to ensure 100% lead is not left on broken rigs.
now here’s the real truth....
it doesn’t really make any difference whatsoever where you put the weakest link Chris because a fish is not going to crack you off through tension alone unless your daft enough to go in undergunned.
Usually If we get cracked off it’s because a fish has snagged us and our line is entangled in or against the snag.
This hasn’t occurred on the first 6-12 inches of material hanging out of its mouth, it’s way more likely that your main line is well into that snag and the main line that’s far more vulnerable to breaking in this situation even if it’s twice as strong as your hook length.
for this reason alone I hate fixed lead ejection systems. Because if they don’t work you have potentially tethered that fish in that snag and the strength of your gear/ tests you carry out/ fancy rigs with fancy breaking points don’t change this.
the safest way to ensure your fish will be free of tackle if she breaks you off is a simple barbless hook and a running lead. Fish like that and your doing as much as you can do

Richard - Halleluja! We are aligned on this . . .totally agree about likely break points / mainline etc and that's why I made the specific point about questioning the use of long hooklinks . . .whatever we do if fishcare is paramount then the only TOTAL fishcare solution (a la the darkside of carping) is to use MUCH shorter hooklinks . . .irrespective of using barbless hooks or not . . .(lets not get into that one!)

Thinking about this (and from another angle) what about the opposite of using traditional lighter lines? (I'm sure I read something on this somewhere) about going OTT with our tackle strength for Barbel across the board (eg. 25lb plus mainline etc) - I'm not talking wire traces or sea gear (obviously) but using seriously heavy snag proof, tree trunk heaving gear and arguably bullying the fish from the take (akin to fishing locked up) to shorten the fight. Whilst crude would this not be a more considerate and arguably a safer solution % fish safety wise and in the long run . . . ?

 

[Richard Isaacs]

As i previously posted im happy to debate this and ive been pretty patient but your holier than thou attitude towards rigs is starting to grate on me ! You waded into the thread dismissing the whole concept of slightly more advanced tigs as a load of tosh and your last post with a dig at fancy rigs with fancy breaking points im guessing was a pop at my comments on how detailed i carry out my testing, i commend your attitude towards fish safety but please dont think your the only one who has safety foremost in regards to rigs, if the thread is to complicated for you feel free to jump off

It wasn’t a dig at you Chris or your testing.
You are incorrect.
it wasn’t a dig at anyone I said it because I read this from mike and thought it was a rather strange comment. No offense to mike of course.

“ I think it is in arguable that this part of a 'rig' needs to be a lower breaking strain than the mainline or have a built in weakness[ like a ledger stop]”

Don’t make this personal! We are allowed to not agree yet can still play nicely

 

[Richard Isaacs]

TOTAL fishcare solution (a la the darkside of carping) is to use MUCH shorter hooklinks .

Errrrrr no.
we obviously are not on the same page at all. What does that resolve if the fish breaks your main line in a snag. The length of your hook length makes no difference if it’s dragged you into a snag and the main line breaks.
the ONLY way you can guarantee a fish is unlikely trailing line is as I said before a running lead and a barbless hook.

 

[Terry Simner]

I think Mr. Belcher posted that one 6 days too early (surely)

 

[Chris Belcher]

Errrrrr no.
we obviously are not on the same page at all. What does that resolve if the fish breaks your main line in a snag. The length of your hook length makes no difference if it’s dragged you into a snag and the main line breaks.
the ONLY way you can guarantee a fish is unlikely trailing line is as I said before a running lead and a barbless hook.

Mmm . . .guys I think you all struggle with visualisation and seem to be editing your own minds before actually applying them.

Lets do some basic algebra . . .

Longer hooklink (2-5') = A
Shorter hooklink (3-10") = B
Assumed random Break above mainline (2') = C
Assumed random Break above mainline (7") = D
Lead drops every time = E
Hook is initially still stuck in fishes gob = F
Breaking strain negligible = G

E x F(A+C+E)-G = 4-7' Trailing line (V V Unsafe)
E x F(B+C+E)-G = 10"-1'3" Trailing line (Manageable - Unsafe)

Therefore by unswerving mathematical genius and a proven model when E is the constant multiplied by the risk factor of F then in the event of a mainline break between two of the most common variables irrespective of G a shorter hooklink is always safer . . . . . . . . .you savvy?

PS> Terry you still haven't answered my question . . resorting to 'average' banter does not count . .

 

[Neil Smart]

Hi Terry - Loving the hornets nest!

I'm not in disagreement with you, however you may have lost the gyst of my commentary with regards safe clip use specifically. . .

Disregarding lead/feeder attachments for the moment, accept if you use 15lb mono mainline and a 8lb mono hooklink and all knots are sound then all other things being equal the hooklink is the weakest part of the equation and is generally more likely to go first. . . .however my point was that irrespective of this barbel hooklinks can be between 2-5' . . .that's a lot of hooklink to be trailing, whether you've dumped your lead or not and whether you use mono, braid or even horsehair/silkworm gut the likelihood of it snagging post capture is significant. . .or do you just feel ok that because the hooklinks 'gone' the fish will be automatically ok and you've saved your mainline. . .?

In addition, and to all those using a single length of coated braid . . .the lowest you can buy these days is generally 10lb, that doesn't necessarily equate that by using 15lb, or even 18lb mono mainline that the coated braid hooklink will snap first in the event of a snag, or even a super violent take . . . It could go at the braided knot to the hook or swivel (if poorly tied) but with anti-slip and anti abrasive properties of thick coated braids this is even more unlikely - in my experience the mainline will generally break first . . . . . . . . .just sayin!

With regards 'ultimate' fish safety in carp fishing (which has 'possibly' been in the doctrine or at the very least more widely publicised doctrine of carp anglers for a LOT longer IMO) - why are hooklinks in this instance now generally the opposite of the traditional adage and usually always of a higher breaking strain these days. . .? Not only can stiffer materials create more effective hooking potential (are more difficult to spit out) but maybe because (and this is linked to my previous point) is that the hooklinks are generally a LOT shorter - between 3-10" as a rule of thumb. In the event of a snag / problem we WANT our lead to drop and worst case we WANT our mainline (which is usually always of a lighter BS) to break as close to the connection point as possible . . . this way all the fish is trailing is a much less snaggable, 3-10" hooklink which over time should be easier to shift . . . .arguably certainly easier than a 4' length of 8lb Drennan Double Strength . . . . . .IMO . .!

Food for thought or tin hat time . .? . . .AND, does this actually prove a point for combi rigs, on the dictat that they are used with a lower bs braid and that the angler is looking for a break at this point (as well as a shorter trailing hooklink) . . .???

Love a bit of fluff chucking . . .as long as its in good spirit . . .

Terry the OP was about combi rigs but morphed into clips - think we agree that losing a lead (and all its inherent snagging capabilities) is foremost. I like you think running rigs ensure this more effectively in the event of a break. You still haven't answered my point on looong trailing mono hooklinks tho . . .even if you do have a break below the lead . . .if fish safety is paramount and its not about 'fish at all costs' as you state then why don't we all use 10" MAX (or shorter if using another heretic item - the method feeder) hooklinks and be done with it . . . . . . . . .

In context with combis was just raising the point that if we are going to use 12-15lb mono main line (I'm confident most do) and a lighter (eg.10lb fluro) hooklink then 'maybe' using a more abrasion affected or slightly lighter bs braided combi section is a good idea . . .as if this is what snaps in effect then the barbel is only trailing 3-4" . . . . . . . .but only if you guys deem it necessary of course . . and not at the expense of catching fish, god forbid!

As for Des Taylor - apols but I just think he's funny and almost a caricature of what some barbel anglers perceive themselves or are indeed perceived (in certain circles) to be like in terms of looks and general demeanour (its a back handed but gentle insult) He was a well respected carp angler 'once' until he started to get old and wear tweed . . . . . .apols xx

Leave if out, DT had bags of experience and he can back it up, probably age is interwoven with experience. Gareth Chilcott is one of your Carpy examples you might want to learn from, he like Des Taylor keeps things as basic as he can, which in my book is liberating ...both catch their fair number of fish without over thinking and over complicating what is and always will be a simple approach of delivering scoff to a willing fish.
Just what DT wears is surely nothing to do with any rigs ..or is it in your book?

 

[Chris Belcher]

. . . .ffs . . . .I rest my case m'lud.

 

[Terry Simner]

PS> Terry you still haven't answered my question . . resorting to 'average' banter does not count . .

Ok, ask your question.
(but if it's will I use mackerel feathers.. then no, you go first).

 

[Chris Belcher]

Ok, ask your question.
(but if it's will I use mackerel feathers.. then no, you go first).

With all respect you respectfully ignored it 3,456 posts ago . . .my fingers are tired so I cant be arsed to scroll up.

Anyway . . .after you've got your calculator, sorry abacus out (and this is not intentional by the way) this thread is now longer than the previous otter thread! Must be a contender for thread of the 'closed' season surely . . .?!

 

[Terry Simner]

With all respect you respectfully ignored it 3,456 posts ago . . .my fingers are tired so I cant be arsed to scroll up.

Anyway . . .after you've got your calculator, sorry abacus out (and this is not intentional by the way) this thread is now longer than the previous otter thread! Must be a contender for thread of the 'closed' season surely . . .?!

What's your question? (CBA)