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What's your honest assessment?

Julian Griffiths

Julian Griffiths

Senior Member & Supporter
Those that know me, will know I fished the River Loddon predominantly.

Now, this River has frequently kicked my backside at times, but at other times I've caught some real beauties, and taken the water apart, much like some of you that are reading this.

Over the years I've noticed a dramatic decline of my personal favourites the Chub, and latterly the Barbel, even more so in this case!

I guess what I'm wanting to know is why?

Is it, as I've wondered whilst blanking with not so much as a rod top indication, down to poor fry recruitment, poorly maintained spawning habitats, signal crayfish, agricultural runoff?

I've heard so many conflicting reasons, but at the same time, the silver fish population seem to be faring better.

I'm aware big rivers like the Thames, Trent, Wye, Severn etc, continue to be the magnet to anglers up and down the country, but other than the Rivers size why have they fared better?

Sorry if this seems a boring post, but I'd like to see a discussion on what's happening/happened to my once thriving River. And what, if anythings been done about it? So upsetting to remember what was good about my local, and conversely to see what's come of it now!

I do not beleive in clubs stocking waterways, with young fish, as a method of sticking a plaster on an ever widening wound!
As that is not addressing whatever the underlying problem is!

What is the issue?

I have heard about the regular stockings of young fish that does occur, which come from rivers like the Trent or Severn, but I personally do not endorse that, as they're not genetically indigenous to our particular waterways, so therefore maybe they're not suitable for our local river. And worse to that, no-one is addressing the issues in the first instance.

I could well be talking a load of dogs dangles, so forgive me!
But I am interested in knowing what has happened to my local waterway over the years or since '07 floods.

One angler places the blame solely at the anglers feet, claiming people shovelling shit loads of pellets over the years have created this problem.
A fish scientist told him about recent deaths of fish he was investigating, & that they all showed the signs of excessive fats contained in and around their vital organs, and that was the causes of a lot of fish deaths? (Commercial venues by the way)

I remember the Perch disease wiping out huge swathes of the population, but they've bounced back in a wonderful way. Could this just be down to population cycles of one species taking a hit only to bounce back in, dare i say it 40 yrs?

Love to hear your constructive feedback.
 
Terry Harman said:
Don’t know about the Loddon but in the case of the Ivel which is a small river the demise is solely down to the one thing you didn’t mention.... the cuddly little otter.... decimated in months
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Yep, along with the Arrow, Bristol Avon, Kennet, and Teme etc. All have one thing in common besides their small size : an infestation of/by/with otters over the last 10-15yrs.
IMHO
 
The Lodden ,as far as I can see has gone exactly the same way as the Great Ouse . Scientists and so called experts tell us that there is nothing wrong, leading anglers telling us in the papers that as far as barbel fishing goes we have never had it so good. if that's the case where are all the fish.? I believe predation (both human and otters) abstraction , and pollution along with fish that cannot spawn due to silting up of spawing gravels. And just as Julian says all since the 07 floods.
 
Peter Dawson said:
The Lodden ,as far as I can see has gone exactly the same way as the Great Ouse . Scientists and so called experts tell us that there is nothing wrong, leading anglers telling us in the papers that as far as barbel fishing goes we have never had it so good. if that's the case where are all the fish.? I believe predation (both human and otters) abstraction , and pollution along with fish that cannot spawn due to silting up of spawing gravels. And just as Julian says all since the 07 floods.
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I think the otter problem carries he most weight, especially as the dramatic decline in waterfowl is another thing that I've noticed.
However chaps, I honestly can say that ive not seen one on the beat I'm a member of.
Seen plenty of mink, but not otter.

Wonder if the river's going to ever bounce back from this?
 
Peter Dawson said:
forgot to add have just about given up on the Lodden you cant catch what isn't there!
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Again that's so true. A chap that I was chatting to, was a long time member of the club I've recently joined, and as he was painting a dismal picture of the clubs water, I asked if it was a bad as you say it is, why are hou still fishing it.
He replied that he'd been wanting to come off the water for the last 3 or 4 seasons, but the memories of the place, plus its beauty keeps pulling him back.

I'd be concerned that if such club memberships numbers crash to the point that it no longer becomes viable for the club to continue, we'll also loose the access to the river too.
 
I think in most rivers the problem is the culmination of all of the things mentioned so far, and maybe the current proliferation of Otters is the straw that has broken the Camel's back.
They've found themselves in rivers full of fish which arn't used to their predatory habits, and they're making hay.
Hopefully, given time, the balance will settle, but it's probably never going to be as prolific as it was from the anglers point of view.
 
Julian Griffiths said:
I think the otter problem carries he most weight, especially as the dramatic decline in waterfowl is another thing that I've noticed.
However chaps, I honestly can say that ive not seen one on the beat I'm a member of.
Seen plenty of mink, but not otter.

Wonder if the river's going to ever bounce back from this?
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Hi Julian
I think the reason you haven't seen one (otter) is because it's already too late. When the easy pickings have dwindled they move on.
 
And now the dove, but if you like to see otters there's plenty there now, i've gone from 40+doubles plus plenty of singles a year to just 2 singles this year, same with the match results , it used to be you needed anywhare from 50+lb of chub dace barbel grayling etc up to over 100lb to win a match, last weekends match was won with 3 chub, second 2 chub , third just a couple of pound, and most struggled on a perfect winter river, fineing down after extra water ,rising temps ,touch of colour, sign of the times i think, get used to it,
Regards
 
All so sad.
Spent so many happy and productive times on the river.

Over 45 years of amazing fishing.
Watching them spawn. Watching them coming in to inspect and hover up the hemp.

Catching them on all baits, including legered tares.

It changed around 10 years ago, I highlighted the change to the Loddon and the Kennet. Many said ...no problem.

Whilst the few BIG fish were being caught, the 3-8lb that kept spirits up were notable by their absence.

Reports of the odd 15 -17lber kept people interested....but it was mainly the same fish or two.

I hope at some stage it returns to the former glory and enjoyment we remember. Not in my lifetime though.
 
Julian.
To answer your question.

There are three major influences.

And you must consider those rivers mostly affected are the smaller ones.
That should give us a major clue.

1. I do believe the affect of high oil pellets has been massively overlooked.
Research I did with the major producers comfirmed in quantity that they would affect the health of the fish and also reduce fertility.
I offered this research information to the BS. They were not interested. You may surmise there were other sponsorship interests at work.

Note that on larger powerful rivers far less affect of excess bait use.

Meanwhile monies were spent on the wasted Teme Survey that told us nothing.

2. Otter Introductions. Again the down turn coincided with initial sightings. On the Kennet, Loddon, Teme and BA for example.

Again on larger rivers the chance of escape by the fish are far greater.

3. The 07 floods moved a lot of fish.
The Teme is a prime example.
Dave Masons upper section being an indication. From fish filled to empty.

In this case and others it would be possible for slow recovery from main river systems.
The floods in themselves were not a long term disaster.
But given 1 and 2
With the smaller rivers often being key spawning grounds the affect is far worse.

As a key example, many Thames barbel that inhabit the Loddon and St. Pats do so for spawning and hang around.

IMO the silt issue isn't one.
Lots of clean gravel runs as you know on the Loddon. It's hardly a issue re boating and silt problems etc.

So. My twopennyworth.
 
The catch rates have dropped and my local Rivers Warks Avon Teme Arrow have all crashed... used to catch at least a couple of Barbel a session on my local WA , and more often than not doubles. Now same stretch lucky to get a couple in a summer, and then it can be repeats. But did have a couple of really fine looking mint Barbel too last summer, but off the beaten track, and in an area that has had an Otter problem, they are still there but it can go one of two ways a slow recovery or complete wipe out as far as Barbel are concerned.

But in all the years this decline has been happening I have yet to see evidence of Otter kill, seen Otter, but no dead fish, not saying the Otter is not a factor, but other factors I believe come into play.

The Arrow is empty, the Teme just a shadow of it's former self, and alas the Lower Severn now is as hard as ever. But but.... the Roach are coming back in big numbers as are the Bream...yuk, as our resident Bream expert John Care can testify.:D

Maybe it just a cycle, perhaps the stocking of Barbel in the 50's in the Severn catchment was boom time for the species, but as we all know with every Boom comes a Bust, perhaps after all the Barbel cannot adapt to these rivers, 60 odd years is nothing in the terms of any species, they have survived for many millions of years in their native rivers. Perhaps it is just not meant to be?

But one thing for sure this subject has been debated so many times on here, and we a still no nearer to an answer.
 
Whilst I accept there are lots of factors, such as otters, cormorants, signal crayfish etc. that affect our fish I believe there is a hidden factor that is at play. My money would be on oestrogen, hormones, antibiotics and other chemicals that are pumped into our rivers from sewerage works or from run off from farms. I understand that not all of these chemicals are not taken into account when river quality is measured so we have no idea what is in our rivers.

So, as Graham says, that's my twopennyworth.
 
What worries me is at the current rate, when I hit my pension age in 40 years time, what sort of state will things be. Even in 30 years time, when I can hopefully slow down at work and fish more, will I be faced with rivers that aren’t even worth fishing. It’s a depressing picture.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
What worries me is at the current rate, when I hit my pension age in 40 years time, what sort of state will things be. Even in 30 years time, when I can hopefully slow down at work and fish more, will I be faced with rivers that aren’t even worth fishing. It’s a depressing picture.
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I think the same, but I'm more concerned for 25 yrs time...some anglers are there now at retirement age with nothing going for them on the river front.
Everything has a cycle, you just have to hope the otters eat each other out of existence!
But then I can see bloody idiots feeding them sardines, like they do with sea lions at zoo's from metal buckets, once there is nothing else they can feed on, this is how crazy our animal welfare groups would seem to be!
 
Julian Griffiths said:
I think the same, but I'm more concerned for 25 yrs time...some anglers are there now at retirement age with nothing going for them on the river front.
Everything has a cycle, you just have to hope the otters eat each other out of existence!
But then I can see bloody idiots feeding them sardines, like they do with sea lions at zoo's from metal buckets, once there is nothing else they can feed on, this is how crazy our animal welfare groups would seem to be!
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I wasn’t going to publish it but I fished a side stream the other day where the fish are sheltering from the main river. In less than quarter of a mile I found five dead Pike and a Perch. This is the first time I’ve seen such a mass killing but it really does highlight what is occurring.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
What worries me is at the current rate, when I hit my pension age in 40 years time, what sort of state will things be. Even in 30 years time, when I can hopefully slow down at work and fish more, will I be faced with rivers that aren’t even worth fishing. It’s a depressing picture.
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I think that there's a chance that a natural balance may have been reached 20 years hence (sooner if sense is seen and 'the otters problem' is actually recognised as a actual problem, by the 'powers that be'). But consider those that have retired in the last 5 years, and those that are about to ... those that planned to do a lot more fishing after stepping down from their labours.
 
I spoke to our local EA man last week and he has collected for autopsy 3 road kill Otters from the lower Colne valley this season, Denham downstream to Wraysbury all inside the M25 . They are rarely seen unless after midnight but for 3 to be road kill in an area about 8 miles means there are a lot more about than people realise. Our fish are just holding on, numbers are seriously down and some areas devoid its only a matter of time before a complete crash
 
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