What's going to work? Team work!

[Andrew Boyne]

Ok Graham i'll give you an answer. No - it doesn't matter one bit. Improvements to our rivers habitat benefit everyone as Joe rightly pointed out. What's the argument here? Are you and others suggesting we shouldn't look to improve our rivers because if we go too far Salmon will return on mass and then we'll all get kicked off by the Salmon anglers?

 

[Darren Rosie]

Yes I had to wait 3 years to get my club membership too, £200 for the first year which included my joining fee and £100 for the last 2 years since but compare that to a £600 season ticket at old trafford or the ludicrous prices you have to pay to join a golf club which only permits you to play certain days, then I do see it as attainable to most. There are even free stretches of river or free ponds and lakes to fish.

 

[Rhys Perry]

Ian,

Its not economics that keeps coarse and game anglers apart............its class distinction. The modern matchman spends more on his fishing than all but the most elite salmon anglers, and yet he is viewed as some sort of lower life form by the fluff flingers.

This thread purported that teamwork between anglers and other interested parties is the way forward. The sooner we realize and ACCEPT that we are not one team the better. Game anglers would happily remove all coarse fish from our rivers so there is no chance of us ever having a common policy. This is why the Salmon and Trout Association did not, and never will, join the AT.

Steve

What a load of toss, there's plenty of anglers that fish for both coarse and game.
Where as I've no doubt there are game angling toffs who look down on coarse anglers, just as there are coarse anglers that look down(up?) at game anglers(like you, obviously!), to say that we are so poles apart that we can't possibly work together is both ridiculous and damaging.

 

[Mark Rylands]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with Andrew and Joe on this. I can't see how negative attitudes to physical restorative river conservation programmes benefit anyone or any river. Hats off to all involved in the Preston Deeps project. We should all be learning something from successful work like this!

Mark

 

[Graham Young]

Ok Graham i'll give you an answer. No - it doesn't matter one bit. Improvements to our rivers habitat benefit everyone as Joe rightly pointed out. What's the argument here? Are you and others suggesting we shouldn't look to improve our rivers because if we go too far Salmon will return on mass and then we'll all get kicked off by the Salmon anglers?

No Andrew I am not suggesting anything of the sort, and I haven't seen anywhere during the thread where anyone else has.

This project has benefited the river in that area, I don't know enough about the Ribble to know if there will be a positive impact where the river is coarse fished, what has been done is to be applauded but it does look from the video and comments on here that it is more about restoring wetlands and stopping erosion, the first obviously benefits birds the second farmers as stopping erosion keeps land which they would have lost and although they are not making money from the project they are not loosing either.

Have you any information on why this stretch was chosen for the project above any others? also who was involved in the choosing of this stretch?

Perhaps if those running the project had the foresight to include coarse anglers in this project there may have been a better response but for whatever reason they didn't which IMO was a mistake.

 

[Ian Crook]

Some of you chaps must be very old to have such prejudices around class distinction. Classic class envy, very, very sad, I thought that had long gone. I regularly fish the rivers Test and Itchen, rivers which are the pinnacle of Trout and Salmon angling in England and see no snobbery towards coarse anglers.

I was once told I must be a coarse angler by the chap at Sportfish because I asked for a discount.

By economics I was referring to the revenue to land owners, they don't care who is fishing but not many coarse anglers would be willing to pay two or three thousand pounds per year for a fixed day or even half day per week to fish in order to secure rights!! That is the kind of commitment the fly boys will make to guarantee the income people become accustomed to on the game angling stretches.

On the Loddon, the trout clubs on the upper reaches of the catchment are hand in hand with the coarse clubs in the LFCC, they help out with work on coarse stretches just as we do on game stretches.

You fellas need to get your heads out of your backsides, lose your Victorian working class views and wake up to the 21st Century, no, better still, join it!!!

 

[Graham Young]

I really don't think that some of the rhetoric that is being posted on this thread is called for, its a debate, a debate has two sides usually with opposing views, sometimes with views that can be changed but only by sensible argument.

 

[Ian Crook]

I really don't think that some of the rhetoric that is being posted on this thread is called for, its a debate, a debate has two sides usually with opposing views, sometimes with views that can be changed but only by sensible argument.

Graham,
I doubt when someone posts good news about their river, they are actually asking for a debate. However, there are some on the foirum who will look for a negative, a debate or argument in just about everything posted!
I don't think rhetoric is he issue here, more past heuristics

 

[David Gauntlett]

Some of you chaps must be very old to have such prejudices around class distinction. Classic class envy, very, very sad, I thought that had long gone. I regularly fish the rivers Test and Itchen, rivers which are the pinnacle of Trout and Salmon angling in England and see no snobbery towards coarse anglers.

I was once told I must be a coarse angler by the chap at Sportfish because I asked for a discount.

By economics I was referring to the revenue to land owners, they don't care who is fishing but not many coarse anglers would be willing to pay two or three thousand pounds per year for a fixed day or even half day per week to fish in order to secure rights!! That is the kind of commitment the fly boys will make to guarantee the income people become accustomed to on the game angling stretches.

On the Loddon, the trout clubs on the upper reaches of the catchment are hand in hand with the coarse clubs in the LFCC, they help out with work on coarse stretches just as we do on game stretches.

You fellas need to get your heads out of your backsides, lose your Victorian working class views and wake up to the 21st Century, no, better still, join it!!!

Ian, much as I usually respect your views, you do seem in some respects to have your head in the unspeakable place you are accusing others of (I couch it in those terms because not being a moderator, I probably wouldn't get away with the words and aggression in your post )

You say "Some of you chaps must be very old to have such prejudices around class distinction. Classic class envy, very, very sad, I thought that had long gone."

You then go on to say "not many coarse anglers would be willing to pay two or three thousand pounds per year for a fixed day or even half day per week to fish in order to secure rights".

Surely mate, you are just playing with semantics here? Paying that amount for 'one or even half a day per week' has nothing to do with willingness...but everything to do with the financial ability to do so. The vast majority of blue collar working, family men would not have the financial ability to pay that amount (I am not talking about the ''nouveau-riche' here, I mean genuine working men) You know as well as I that such price levels are maintained purely to keep out the 'riff raff'...those being the 'working class', or whatever terminology you wish to use to distinguish such folk

These lads are not 'Victorian' for having those views...they are just realistic enough to understand household budgets....and the better half's' ire . When/if I go on holiday abroad, I fly 'economy class'.....if I was very rich, I could fly 'first class'. They are not my classifications, they are the airlines. Money = social standing, old hat and uncomfortable as that concept may be. And the ' 'nouveau-riche' I mentioned earlier, the 'new money'...are still regarded by those with 'old money' as being of a different class to them. Not always openly...but it is still there.

Just my opinions Ian, and they don't matter one bit in the bigger scheme of things

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Andrew Boyne]

No Andrew I am not suggesting anything of the sort

Perhaps if those running the project had the foresight to include coarse anglers in this project there may have been a better response but for whatever reason they didn't which IMO was a mistake.

I apologise for reading something into your post that wasn't there - just a little frustrated that the 'debate' regarding coarse and game anglers started in the first place. The point is anglers were consulted and directly involved in the project alongside the RSPB, English Nature, The EA, Local Councils, The rivers Trust, The National Trust and Landowners - The fact that a game angling club controls the stretch is irrelevant. It is a shining example of what can happen when all interested parties come together. That was the point of the original post.
The fact it has been rubbished by some on here backs up my point on this and the otter petition thread that the biggest barrier to coarse angling and the AT achieving anything is the anglers themselves, or at least those within our ranks that like to shout the loudest without any real knowledge of the subject.

 

[Nick Clark]

I apologise for reading something into your post that wasn’t there - just a little frustrated that the ‘debate’ regarding coarse and game anglers started in the first place. The point is anglers were consulted and directly involved in the project alongside the RSPB, English Nature, The EA, Local Councils, The rivers Trust, The National Trust and Landowners - The fact that a game angling club controls the stretch is irrelevant. It is a shining example of what can happen when all interested parties come together. That was the point of the original post.
The fact it has been rubbished by some on here backs up my point on this and the otter petition thread that the biggest barrier to coarse angling and the AT achieving anything is the anglers themselves, or at least those within our ranks that like to shout the loudest without any real knowledge of the subject.

Andrew, thanks for posting that video. And thanks for the added info Joe. Very interesting and much appreciated. It’s a shame that all the work and callaborations done here has not had the chance of being discussed and looked it any greater depth.

I don’t understand what the negativity achieves, certainly not a meaningful debate.

Doooomed, Dooomed, we’re all Dooomed.

 

[Ian Crook]

Ian, much as I usually respect your views, you do seem in some respects to have your head in the unspeakable place you are accusing others of (I couch it in those terms because not being a moderator, I probably wouldn't get away with the words and aggression in your post )

You say "Some of you chaps must be very old to have such prejudices around class distinction. Classic class envy, very, very sad, I thought that had long gone."

You then go on to say "not many coarse anglers would be willing to pay two or three thousand pounds per year for a fixed day or even half day per week to fish in order to secure rights".

Surely mate, you are just playing with semantics here? Paying that amount for 'one or even half a day per week' has nothing to do with willingness...but everything to do with the financial ability to do so. The vast majority of blue collar working, family men would not have the financial ability to pay that amount (I am not talking about the ''nouveau-riche' here, I mean genuine working men) You know as well as I that such price levels are maintained purely to keep out the 'riff raff'...those being the 'working class', or whatever terminology you wish to use to distinguish such folk

These lads are not 'Victorian' for having those views...they are just realistic enough to understand household budgets....and the better half's' ire . When/if I go on holiday abroad, I fly 'economy class'.....if I was very rich, I could fly 'first class'. They are not my classifications, they are the airlines. Money = social standing, old hat and uncomfortable as that concept may be. And the ' 'nouveau-riche' I mentioned earlier, the 'new money'...are still regarded by those with 'old money' as being of a different class to them. Not always openly...but it is still there.

Just my opinions Ian, and they don't matter one bit in the bigger scheme of things

Cheers, Dave.

Dave,

I agree with much of your post, my reference to the related costs was intended to explain why I stated it was down to economics in an earlier post.
Those same working class people will find that sort of money to play golf though if they are that way inclined.
Of course the upper class still exists but the boundaries between middle and working class are vague.

 

[Graham Elliott]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0JSahEDRjvw

 

[Graham Young]

Thanks for that Graham, brightened the morning up.

 

[Steve Stringer]

Ian,

Pardon me for having an opinion. How does making personal comments like the above help? Would you like it if I suggested you lose weight and get a life?

Steve

 

[Ian Crook]

Ian,

Pardon me for having an opinion. How does making personal comments like the above help? Would you like it if I suggested you lose weight and get a life?

Steve

I wouldn't mind at all Steve, I can take the truth!

My cutting comments were not aimed at anyone in particular, I just get really frustrated by those who want to find fault with absolutely everything but yet offer nothing of their own time or money to solve.

I spend an awful lot of time trying to help improve our fisheries and it does not help having constantly to get past antiquated views such as those demonstrated in this thread.

At the end of the day we are all human and it takes a lot to get beyond what has been drummed into us during our lives.

 

[Nick Clark]

I know Ian can fight his own battles, but I’d like to reitterate his comment above. The waters Ian looks after are well managed, on a flood plain and I imagine he has much experience of dealing with many of the dimensions that the Ribble project has looked to address. Speaking as an ex member and someone that walks regularly there still, I can’t imagine all the bridges that need to be built in order to keep the waters and surrounds in top nick, not just for the fishing but on other counts too. His work and that of others who dedicate their time and energy to looking after fisheries on the ground and in all kinds of negotiations with landowners and agencies is kind of belittled by moaning and retrospective nit picking, call it ‘debating’ if you wil. Right at the moment, looking over the devastation of the Loddon, St Pats and Thames just there, I’m sure he’s got his work cut out, so I’m not surprised if some of the comments don’t irk. People don’t distinguish between the coarse or the game or the posh or the poor when something needs to be done, they just notice who is doing the work.

 

[Graham Young]

I know Ian can fight his own battles, but I’d like to reitterate his comment above. The waters Ian looks after are well managed, on a flood plain and I imagine he has much experience of dealing with many of the dimensions that the Ribble project has looked to address. Speaking as an ex member and someone that walks regularly there still, I can’t imagine all the bridges that need to be built in order to keep the waters and surrounds in top nick, not just for the fishing but on other counts too. His work and that of others who dedicate their time and energy to looking after fisheries on the ground and in all kinds of negotiations with landowners and agencies is kind of belittled by moaning and retrospective nit picking,[/I] call it ‘debating’ if you wil. Right at the moment, looking over the devastation of the Loddon, St Pats and Thames just there, I’m sure he’s got his work cut out, so I’m not surprised if some of the comments don’t irk. People don’t distinguish between the coarse or the game or the posh or the poor when something needs to be done, they just notice who is doing the work.[/QUOTE






Isnt that whats being done by the pro (don't know how to word it better) side as well? the video was I imagine posted as an example of what can be done, inevitably not everyone agreed, I am somewhere in the middle.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Ian, I think you are probably right about the golf thing these days, although I still think that the average employee (as opposed to those self employed) would find it virtually impossible. I was thinking of myself as a young working father with kids, and I most certainly could not have afforded that kind of outlay then, even after adjusting the figures to relate to that era. In fact, I struggled to afford basics as far as fishing went...and I bet plenty of folk, even now, can identify with that state of affairs. And before you say it, I too am utterly astonished that I can remember that far back

The fact is, once everybody calms down, there are very few REAL issues that most members fundamentally disagree about. Sadly, the otter issue is one that sees the red mist appear for some, but even that could be reconciled and common grounds found if we could just hold it down a bit. What are we like

As for this thread, Andrew started it as a result of his frustration with the otter thread, to prove a point as it were. However, the frustrations we ALL felt during that thread have merely boiled over onto this one, which is a shame, because Andrews video really is rather nice viewing. And I do agree that ANY improvement to a stretch of river can only be a good thing. Plus, if it is in the upper stretches of a river as it is in this case, then it is bound to have some beneficial effects on those lower down areas (Ooh-er missus ), so good on them.

However, the reality of that situation is that the stretch shown on the video is a showcase effort. As Andrew said, it does show what can be done if everyone joins together and gets stuck in....but that is not surprising, because that is what it was intended to do. The problem is, if the costs involved in achieving these splendid results on this tiny seven kilometer stretch were disclosed....it would probably instantly become obvious that with the best will in the world, such wonderful works have less than a snowballs chance in hell of becoming common practice on all rivers nationwide. I/we can dream....but it aint going to happen, is it? Apart from it being financially a non starter in these times of budget cuts to everything in sight, that vision of utopia would not blend too well with the more recent promises of mass dredging (Actually, to be serious for one moment, I don't think too much dredging will actually take place, once the dust settles...but I am probably wrong there as well )

Great piece of fondly remembered video Graham, lifted the mood nicely....but I refuse to own up as to which of those three gents I identify with. Anyway, I am not THAT short

I also take on board Nick Clark's comments....and concede he has a point.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Steve Stringer]

I wouldn't mind at all Steve, I can take the truth!

My cutting comments were not aimed at anyone in particular, I just get really frustrated by those who want to find fault with absolutely everything but yet offer nothing of their own time or money to solve.

I spend an awful lot of time trying to help improve our fisheries and it does not help having constantly to get past antiquated views such as those demonstrated in this thread.

At the end of the day we are all human and it takes a lot to get beyond what has been drummed into us during our lives.

Ian,
Excellent post and this is where the forum medium seems to fall down as a means of communication.

If we met up in a pub we would almost certainly get on like a house on fire. Those people, like yourself, who freely give up their time to help run fisheries tend to be a special breed. To put so much time and experience into something, where no matter what you do, the rank and file will ALWAYS deride your efforts with scorn while at the same time doing absolutely nothing themselves is a thankless task. Having to decide on a course of action, and implement it, with either a committee or other interested third parties involved means that some sort of compromise has to be reached. It’s not a perfect system but the only other system is a dictatorial one where the outcome will only ever suit a particular viewpoint.

What forums like this do show is that people, with nothing but the good of our sport at heart, have very differing opinions on the issues that affect our ability to enjoy a good days fishing in peace. The mistake that is made over and over again is to believe that posting on a forum is going to change anyone’s beliefs. Therefore anyone with an opinion different to the prevailing crowd view has to be branded an idiot or a troublemaker rather than having a different viewpoint. Now, it is true that some people only post to get a “biteâ€â€¦. and is that so very bad. Taking the p**s out of each other is in my opinion one of the enjoyable aspects of the British character. However, on forums, this usually rapidly descends into a slanging match and name calling and a locked thread.

My opinions are my own but they are based on my angling experiences and what I have learnt from many years serving on committee’s and advisory boards as well as with a chainsaw or weeding iron in hand. There is no right or wrong here. Some salmon anglers are great guys with a deep knowledge of the environment and all the creatures within it and some are ill informed buffoons who think every coarse fish should be thrown up the bank.

Andrew Boyne started this thread with the notion that teamwork is the only way forward, and to a large extent I agree with him. However I also believe that there are parties that might join such a team who have a much darker agenda and it often too late once the deception is realised. One such party is the Salmon and Trout Association, and I believe that their reluctance to join the AT not only weakens the AT, but should give all coarse anglers cause for reflection.

Steve