The next barbel river record

[Ray Walton]

True enough. But most of the monitoring is undertaken at fixed sites (around 7000) and at fixed times of year at regular, fixed intervals - at least monthly.

But all the monitoring in the world isn't of much us unless they are looking for the right things. I find it amazing that the impacts of water-soluble neonicotinoids (used as a prophylatic pesticide) were ignored by all almost everyone. It took a catastrophic collapse of bee populations to make everyone in this country sit up and take notice.

I posted the following on this site two years ago:

Many of you may be aware of the furore regarding the use of Neonicotinoid seed dressings which have been linked to a range of harmful environmental impacts, notably honey-bee colony collapse disorder. Thanks to the EU most of these products were banned in 2013, although no thanks to our own Govt. who revealed itself to be in the unashamedly in the pockets of the agri-chemical industry and were extremely vociferous in their opposition to the ban.

Neonicotinoids (Neonics) are a class of neuro-active insecticides, which include acetamiprid, clothianidin, imidacloprid, nitenpyram, nithiazine, thiacloprid & thiamethoxam. Neonicotinoid are relatively new onto the scene, some first became commercially available in the late 90's, others in early 2000s. Since their introduction the products became very popular, and before the ban, neonics were applied to approximately 35% of the arable land in the UK, mainly oilseed rape and winter wheat.

Remarkably, given that neonics are water soluble and therefore readily leach into watercourses, no long-term systematic study has ever been carried out to determine their impact - and surprise surprise, scientists are now beginning to discover just how polluting neonics are.

Door, stable, horse, bolted.

What ever happened to the 'Precautionary Principle'?

Take this:

There is so much evidence, going far beyond bees," Prof Dave Goulson from the University of Sussex told BBC News.

"They accumulate in soils, they are commonly turning up in waterways at levels that exceed the lethal dose for things that live in streams.

"It is impossible to deny that these things are having major environmental impacts.". BBC News - Widespread impacts of neonicotinoids 'impossible to deny'

And this:

"Peer-reviewed research, published in the leading journal Nature this Wednesday, has revealed data from the Netherlands showing that bird populations fell most sharply in those areas where neonicotinoid pollution was highest. Starlings, tree sparrows and swallows were among the most affected.

At least 95% of neonicotinoids applied to crops ends up in the wider environment, killing the insects the birds rely on for food, particularly when raising chicks.

The researchers, led by Hans de Kroon, an ecologist at Radboud University, in the Netherlands, examined other possible reasons for the bird declines seen during the study period of 2003 to 2010, including intensification of farming. But high pollution by a neonicotinoid known as imidacloprid was by far the largest factor.

“It is very surprising and very disturbing,†de Kroon said. Water pollution levels of just 20 nanograms of neonicotinoid per litre led to a 30% fall in bird numbers over 10 years, but some water had contamination levels 50 times higher. “That is why it is so disturbing – there is an incredible amount of imidacloprid in the water,†he said. “And it is not likely these effects will be restricted to birds.â€"

Neonicotinoids linked to recent fall in farmland bird numbers | Environment | The Guardian

Since then more and more evidence is being is being gathered on the impacts - I suspect we look back at the neonics in the same way we now view the impacts of DDT.

But be aware, the NFU and ag-chem industry are still lobbying to have them reintroduced. Former Defra Minister (therefore EA boss), and Tory MP Owen Paterson, who tried his best to block the neonics ban whilst he was the Defra Minister, is one of the chief protagonists.

Coincidentally, Owen Paterson's brother in law Matt Ridley (yes the man who broke Northern Rock) works for Syngenta (THE leading neonics manufacturer) as a Govt. lobbyist...

Interestingly, as you probably know Joe....Himalayan Balsam which anglers and the public are led to believe is bad for the river and land environment and then hoodwinked by the EA etc to go out and smash it up, it's existence is probably why the remaining UK bee population are still surviving, as it is a beneficial replacement to the decline of our wild flower habitat and disappearing natural flowers and water meadows.. due to intensive farming practices and even garden pesticides and all of what you mention above. It is a hugely beneficial nutricious and prime source of food for the remaining wild UK bees and all insects including butterflies etc. They love it. When you see any on your travels in summer, just watch the amount of bumble bees, other types of bees and butterflies that visit it. It is quite amazing and in my opinion, it is a saviour.

 

[Paul Dowgill]

Stephen this is not the place for an economic discussion but you will have seen the headlines from the last few days re incomes and families and in times like these the lowest common denominator comes into play - maintaining the environment as some of us would wish is expensive so will not be a priority. As you say time will tell and i hope you can come back and say told you so but i doubt it...

The time isn't there to rewrite the rule book just yet so EU law as it currently stands will be UK law to be amended retrospectively as we go. It's not like we're hitting reset. We will have wait and see really, that's the only certainty.
I don't think the economy is all that bad at present either. The stats are a bit skewed but a report this week has revealed that average earning are up 2% in the last 12 months, unemployment is at an all time low and food is actually still cheaper than last year. Certainly things are better in 2008. Time will tell.

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Stephen this is not the place for an economic discussion but you will have seen the headlines from the last few days re incomes and families and in times like these the lowest common denominator comes into play - maintaining the environment as some of us would wish is expensive so will not be a priority. As you say time will tell and i hope you can come back and say told you so but i doubt it...

Totally agree. It does appear to depend on what way the wind is blowing and how the stats are tortured as to what the current headline is. Those where what were presented as parts of BBC's more or less based on current government stats. But back on topic as you say.

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

Interestingly, as you probably know Joe....Himalayan Balsam which anglers and the public are led to believe is bad for the river and land environment and then hoodwinked by the EA etc to go out and smash it up, it's existence is probably why the remaining UK bee population are still surviving, as it is a beneficial replacement to the decline of our wild flower habitat and disappearing natural flowers and water meadows.. due to intensive farming practices and even garden pesticides and all of what you mention above. It is a hugely beneficial nutricious and prime source of food for the remaining wild UK bees and all insects including butterflies etc. They love it. When you see any on your travels in summer, just watch the amount of bumble bees, other types of bees and butterflies that visit it. It is quite amazing and in my opinion, it is a saviour.

Interesting observation, il watch that this summer.

 

[Ray Walton]

Interesting observation, il watch that this summer.

Stephen...You have a PM for your interest

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Interestingly, as you probably know Joe....Himalayan Balsam which anglers and the public are led to believe is bad for the river and land environment and then hoodwinked by the EA etc to go out and smash it up, it's existence is probably why the remaining UK bee population are still surviving, as it is a beneficial replacement to the decline of our wild flower habitat and disappearing natural flowers and water meadows.. due to intensive farming practices and even garden pesticides and all of what you mention above. It is a hugely beneficial nutricious and prime source of food for the remaining wild UK bees and all insects including butterflies etc. They love it. When you see any on your travels in summer, just watch the amount of bumble bees, other types of bees and butterflies that visit it. It is quite amazing and in my opinion, it is a saviour.

There is no doubt that many species, especially honey bees, love it. And as you say they need all the help they can get. I'm not so sure it's of benefit to many of the less generalist pollinators, some of which will rely on many of the very plants that himalayan balsam can rapidly out compete.

Shame it rapidly accelerates bankside erosion, you should see the state of some if the rivers in the NW - it's completely taken over many stretches of the Weaver, Dane, Gowy and Bollin.

I also find the smell of it a bit nauseating as well so I was hoping the CABI rust trials would prove effective - but I'm hearing they are not going so well :-(

 

[Dave Taylor]

There is no doubt that many species, especially honey bees, love it. And as you say they need all the help they can get. I'm not so sure it's of benefit to many of the less generalist pollinators, some of which will rely on many of the very plants that himalayan balsam can rapidly out compete.
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Agree with that Joe.... mono culture habitats aren't as beneficial as those with a variety of flora which give insects and bees a longer feeding window and encourages a wider range of pollinators.
H. Balsam has an appeal but its just too invasive and leaves the ground bare in the winter. Much prefer it to Giant Hogweed though.

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

May sound a bit hairy fairy but maybe we could do more to encourage wild flower populations. I noticed that the Wye has an abundance, wild mint, snap dragons etc etc, my local rivers are either nettle or balsam (the Royality is different but that's more like a public garden anyway.).
Wasn't most of the bank etc left in the old days, only really becoming farmed to the waters edge as a measure during the wars and never given back? I might be making that up but it's a funny foot note in my mind. We're restocking Roach and Barbel why not take a more holistic approach.

 

[Ray Walton]

Agree with that Joe.... mono culture habitats aren't as beneficial as those with a variety of flora which give insects and bees a longer feeding window and encourages a wider range of pollinators.
H. Balsam has an appeal but its just too invasive and leaves the ground bare in the winter. Much prefer it to Giant Hogweed though.

Leaving the ground bare and open to bank erosion is nothing different to what the EA do in raping the banks of vegetation and trees every year. HB is generally a late bloomer thus giving the bees and butterflies etc that longer feeding and survival window. The point is, if the banks and the vicinity are devoid of indigenous flowers and plants in the first place, due to EA/NE, farmers, golf clubs, angling clubs commercial interests and activity, then HB becomes a bonus supplementary benefical alternative for bees, butterflies and all insects which then benefits the food chain regarding birds, bats and every living thing that feeds on them to survive. Very rare to see anyone or angling club etc trying to re-establish bare sterilised and manicured riverbanks with indigenous plant and flower species. On some venues where i have visited over the years, generally the ones that are left alone to nature with little interference from anyone, they are the ones that are perfect with indigenous species of plants and flowers with odd bits of HB around. They are thriving with insects, birds and wildlife. It seems most become brainwashed and follow like sheep and lemmings to EA/NE thinking and destructive action, without knowing what they are really doing and the eventual consequences...in my opinion.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

The most biologically diverse riverbanks, in my opinion, tend to be ones which receive just the right amount of late season (July - Oct) cattle grazing. Plants are allowed to set seed and flower, before being grazed off to allow regeneration the following year. Some light trampling helps with plant germination as well. Cattle aren't really selective grazers, but they will make an exception for Himalayan balsam which they love due to the sugar and water content - they make a bee line for it. Hence that's why H. balsam seldom becomes a problem when cattle have access to the banks.

On watercourses where H. balsam is present, the worst thing that can happen is for it to be fenced off - it allows it to spread, usually uncontrollably.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Ray,... I too have witnessed the wholesale destruction of the riverbank by the EA..then NRA flood defence back in the early nineties on one of my old favourite waters and was instrumental in getting it stopped with some frantic phone calls to the regional fishery officer. Bad memories indeed.
As far as riparian vegetation is concerned, in a perfect world, a reasonable compromise would be to only manage access to one bank which could mean leaving the other totally inaccessible to anglers. I have in fact recommended that to one of my clubs, ( not local to me btw) but the Treasurer couldn't quite see my point that the club either buy or pay rent for rights that were not going to be available to members.
I actually dislike manicured banks, but accept that anglers in general require 'reasonable ' access otherwise they will not bother with a particular venue and ultimately it will risk being dropped by a club. The key to creating access is to be aware of any negative consequences and any work undertaken should be done with sensitivity.
The few of us that do a bit most weeks haven't got the time or manpower to hand pull H. Balsam but where the banks are barren we do reseed with local indigenous plants if poss.
As you will appreciate, many venues have stock fencing adjacent to the riverbank which leaves a small legal access corridor for anglers. Once this becomes impenetrable the fishery can shrink considerably in a few cases.
Removing just enough brash for access has allowed indigenous plants and flowers to establish themselves in just a short period and if cut at the right times of year will continue to thrive and still allow footfall. Marginal and overhanging vegetation is of vital importance I agree.

Joe,.. buffer zones have created miles of fenced bank haven't they, which has provided Balsam with its own sanctuary. Don't know what the answer is as the fences are there to stop farmers spraying too close to the river,...and to protect bankside flora as well as preventing livestock bank damage. Hobson's choice!

 

[Ray Walton]

Caught 1906

Lots of examples of old case mounted Barbel



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It appears that for a barbel to be set up the fish did not have to be big, this was a Royalty fish caught in 1897 weighing 5lbs 10 ozs

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Graham...can you check if the 1st top fish was a Royalty/Avon barbel 1906 and the weight etc, described by the auctioneer, if you have that info. The lower 2nd barbel looks much bigger than 5lb+. Many thanks

 

[Graham Young]

Might be the way I have posted them that is confusing Ray this is the information for the top fish

in a naturalistic river setting, within a rectangular case with bowed glazed front, with label inscribed 'Caught by/ * P.K. James/ River Stour/ Weight 4lbs 6ozs/ Octr. 9th 1906'

I have been unable to find the bottom fish again but I will keep looking

Found it and I agree it looks bigger than the claimed weight here is the info that was with the fish again

J. COOPER & SONS BARBEL mounted amongst reeds, bears interior taxidermist`s paper label, "Caught July 9th 1897 Royalty Fishery - River Avon by A.F. Grant member of Hampshire Angling Society, weight 5lbs 10ozs, in bow fronted display case with gold l ine detail, 38 x 83cm

If anyone has the necessary maths skills a guesstimate of the fishes length could be determined from the case size that is given

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

As a random guesstimate, at 83cm there would appear to be a 10cm gap either side, making the fish itself around 60cm. That's 23" in old money, just under 2ft. So 5,10lb is pretty reason I spose.

 

[Ray Walton]

Thanks for that Graham...much appreciated.

Stephen, yes the case size matches the fish size quite well as described. I thought the auctioneers may have accidently mixed up the description as the lower Avon fish looks much longer and heavier and has the shape of a much larger and older barbel in my opinion.

 

[John Walker]

barbel

personally i think that the thames could still produce a real monster barbel butit may well come from well down past teddington and in places where only a few guys have got the madness to fish it because most wont,

 

[John Walker]

also honey bees love blue forms of natural wild flowers, i just wish they wouldnt hide and reproduce in the wall next to my boiler flue, still nice to see them and the damsel flies working away in the wild flowers and honey suckle in my garden

 

[Rob Hilton]

Won't go in my lifetime IMO.

 

[Chris Cheshire]

Is the nene not worth a mention in the list?

 

[Sam Lloyd]

Is the nene not worth a mention in the list?

I would of thought the back waters at Elton might throw up a monster or two, from what I have been reliable informed by a friend and the former river record holder.