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The fishery predation survey

Jerry Gleeson

Jerry Gleeson

Senior Member
With many of the nations waterways now suffering from predation from otters, minks, crayfish, gooseanders etc, Paul Floyd and Shaun Nurse in there own time and using there own money have started the fishery predation survey project.
The goal is to build up a database of sightings and incidents to monitor the effects of predation on our fish stocks and provide data to give weight to any lobbying of government agencies to get improvements in the quality of our fisheries so that they can support both angling and our native wildlife in a natural self sustaining way.

It takes less than 2 minutes to fill in the form to report a sighting or incident so please do so, any information you input is confidential and will not be including in published reports.

www.predation.co.uk

www.facebook.com/predationsurveyproject



 
While the guys feel they have good intentions I fail to see what the survey can possibly achieve as its just anecdotal and not scientific data.

Fisheries predation has been part of "modern" fishing now for many years and thankfully lobbying by the angling trust a few years ago eased the restrictions on shooting cormorant and goosander. Mink you can kill humanely, signal crayfish there may never be an answer for and otters we all know about them.

Predation is just part of fishing and managing a fishery.
 
I am sure that the chaps have the best of intentions but as Jason has said what will having this database achieve ? We all know about the various creatures that eat fish and are equally aware that in certain circumstances if the predators are in large numbers they can have a very significant negative effect on fish .e,g. lots of otters / mink/ cormorants in a short stretch of small river or the same predators clearing a pond or lake out . Putting aside the fact that culls of otters will never be sanctioned, if people have a concern about too many mink on their local river or flocks of cormorants taking large numbers of fish then they have the option of thinning the predators out by trapping / shooting . With a little effort this can be done legally if the requisite licences / permits are obtained . This would be a direct and legal approach to reducing the problem
 
Any reliable evidence that will shine a light on predator impact on fisheries is fine by me.
I agree that data collated by those with a vested interest will be discounted by many, and I also acknowledge that predation is but one part of the problems affecting some of our rivers.
I can’t foresee a reversal in the public perception of the otter ‘success ‘ story as many turn a blind eye to it’s consequences. I quite like otters actually, but their increased presence on my local venues IS most definitely leaving it’s mark,... as can be seen with the diminishing adult barbel ,chub and water fowl populations.
I spend most days around the riverbank and watch otters and cormorants do what they do,... day in day out, ... there seems to be but a few larger barbel that haven’t escaped Tarka’s attention, many sporting large claw and teeth wounds that cannot be attributed to angling damage which has “bookended “ the predation cycle from egg to adult.

I really do try to be upbeat and positive about the rivers because there still remains so much to enjoy, but for many of the inhabitants the future seems precarious to say the least.
 
I'm not knocking them Dave and like you say anything that shines a light is good, but I still feel it will achieve nothing....and I class myself as an optimist :)

but I would like to be proved wrong.
 
I don't sign up to the "it won't do any good" mentality and think it's a great shame when we see that sort of response. It can all get a self-fulfilling of course because of the impact these sorts of comments can have. Importantly, the survey isn't solely otter focused and from what I know of Paul, he is balanced about the issues and feels like many that some attempt at gathering data that might at least inform the debate should be seen as a good thing. It's also not about a snapshot view and much of the value will be in seeing changes over time. This does then require pretty consistent data and clearly the more anglers that get involved the more likely it is that distortions are smoothed out.

We could all argue about the timing of initiatives such as this until our life force evaporates completely. The point is it's being done now and by someone who has devoted his personal time to develop and launch this site because he cares. I don't see why we can't wish him the best of luck and even supply data when an event occurs. Let's not kill it at birth.
 
thing is Howard I can't see what can be done to change predation in away that can effect fish stocks.

you can shoot the birds if you want, you can trap mink if you want to, signal crayfish eradication will either be natural or science led and like said what will ever change regarding otters...nothing.

that's the way it is.

I would rather be informed by facts than hearsay at the end of the day. truth is how many anglers no the difference between an otter and a mink, how many know what a goosander or a cormorant looks like? and in all honesty how many anglers can be arsed to do the survey, as you know anglers are apathetic at best.

I remember many years ago reading this study as it relates directly to fish and angling and I found it very informative regarding otters as it was carried out on rivers I fish week in week out.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13364-015-0223-3.

I'm not knocking them and what they are doing I just cant see what the outcome will be.
 
Jason Bean said:
While the guys feel they have good intentions I fail to see what the survey can possibly achieve as its just anecdotal and not scientific data.

Fisheries predation has been part of "modern" fishing now for many years and thankfully lobbying by the angling trust a few years ago eased the restrictions on shooting cormorant and goosander. Mink you can kill humanely, signal crayfish there may never be an answer for and otters we all know about them.

Predation is just part of fishing and managing a fishery.[/QUOTE]





How can a fishery be legally managed if it is overrun with predators whose numbers cannot be controlled?
Click to expand...
 
Jason,.. I totally understand your viewpoint,.. I too get despondent and often cynically wonder if much of what we anglers have witnessed over the past 20 odd years is irreversible.
That said, I will support anyone who is willing to tell it like it is, and present factual un-hyped evidence of any predation linked damage to our fish stocks.
Anglers,.. although often biased,... are best placed to report and should be encouraged. Feedback should be sifted and accurate.
What will it achieve? Well it means I will feel better for not sitting on my hands by highlighting what many of the public either refuse to acknowledge or don’t witness. Whether they give a damn or not,.. answers on a postcard.
https://barbel.co.uk/site/vbulletin/forum/members/picture.php?albumid=561&pictureid=6015
A nice Dorset Stour barbel with a chunk missing.
 
Graham Young said:
Jason Bean said:
While the guys feel they have good intentions I fail to see what the survey can possibly achieve as its just anecdotal and not scientific data.

Fisheries predation has been part of "modern" fishing now for many years and thankfully lobbying by the angling trust a few years ago eased the restrictions on shooting cormorant and goosander. Mink you can kill humanely, signal crayfish there may never be an answer for and otters we all know about them.

Predation is just part of fishing and managing a fishery





How can a fishery be legally managed if it is overrun with predators whose numbers cannot be controlled?
Click to expand...


To be fair Graham in Jason's [ and my response ] there were several legal predator management approaches that fishery owner / managers could adopt should they choose to .Howard , I don't think the survey will be particularly useful in that the predator problem is already clear and well identified at least by anglers and their supporters . My view is that something very positive can be done to manage predators such as mink and Cormorants , namely get on , obtain the requisite permits / licences and get out there and try to bring things back to some sort of balance by reducing predator numbers .
Click to expand...
 
Mike,.. I was under the impression that mink traps were in place to control the species. When out on the Havon some months back I spoke to a young guy who had driven across the water meadows in a 4x4 to inspect the many mink rafts on the venue who informed me that they were just there to access the population and not for lethal purposes. He did add however, that dog otters often used them to drop a spraint on for scent marking!
 
Ha , very good Dave . I wonder why he would want to '' access the population ''? TBH I reckon shooting mink is a far better and more efficient option . Unlike the Otter they have few friends in the none angling community and don't think many would run to their defence, sneaky little toads that they are .
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
Graham Young said:
To be fair Graham in Jason's [ and my response ] there were several legal predator management approaches that fishery owner / managers could adopt should they choose to .Howard , I don't think the survey will be particularly useful in that the predator problem is already clear and well identified at least by anglers and their supporters . My view is that something very positive can be done to manage predators such as mink and Cormorants , namely get on , obtain the requisite permits / licences and get out there and try to bring things back to some sort of balance by reducing predator numbers .
Click to expand...


Are they not just to move the problem elsewhere? contraception is imo the only way otter numbers will ever be legally controlled.
Click to expand...
 
Jason Bean said:
thing is Howard I can't see what can be done to change predation in away that can effect fish stocks.

you can shoot the birds if you want, you can trap mink if you want to, signal crayfish eradication will either be natural or science led and like said what will ever change regarding otters...nothing.

that's the way it is.

I would rather be informed by facts than hearsay at the end of the day. truth is how many anglers no the difference between an otter and a mink, how many know what a goosander or a cormorant looks like? and in all honesty how many anglers can be arsed to do the survey, as you know anglers are apathetic at best.

I remember many years ago reading this study as it relates directly to fish and angling and I found it very informative regarding otters as it was carried out on rivers I fish week in week out.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13364-015-0223-3.

I'm not knocking them and what they are doing I just cant see what the outcome will be.
Click to expand...


If they don't they can log on to the survey site where the species mentioned are identified in a picture, there is also some interesting reading on endocrine disrupters etc on there its well worth a look and I reckon these chaps deserve as much support as anglers can give them.
 
I don't know about that Jason I'd say your average angler is more clued up on thier wildlife than most of joe public. Most anglers I meet are pretty observant bird watchers. If you can't see the difference between an otter and a mink it's time for an eye test haha.
 
Jason Bean said:
thing is Howard I can't see what can be done to change predation in away that can effect fish stocks.

you can shoot the birds if you want, you can trap mink if you want to, signal crayfish eradication will either be natural or science led and like said what will ever change regarding otters...nothing.

that's the way it is.

I would rather be informed by facts than hearsay at the end of the day. truth is how many anglers no the difference between an otter and a mink, how many know what a goosander or a cormorant looks like? and in all honesty how many anglers can be arsed to do the survey, as you know anglers are apathetic at best.

I remember many years ago reading this study as it relates directly to fish and angling and I found it very informative regarding otters as it was carried out on rivers I fish week in week out.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13364-015-0223-3.

I'm not knocking them and what they are doing I just cant see what the outcome will be.
Click to expand...



Wasn't it generally believed that at speeds of over 30 mph people would die- from suffocation or something. Its a good job Mr Ford and others didn't listen to that background noise.

I'm sorry Jason but I just don't see the merit in demolishing an initiative which doesn't appear to have any downside. I am not sure I would class submissions as "hearsay" although I sort of get where you are coming from. We have to apply a bit fo faith and trust that the majority of people would submit something that is accurate without distortion that suited a particular agenda. That's why the more anglers that engage and do so over a long period of time, the more any such distortions are smoothed out. As I said previously, the value isn't necessarily in a snapshot view of predation-its' changes over time. The entire debate around fish stock levels/the state of our rivers is certainly starved of the oxygen of meaningful scientific analysis. But there is no either or here- data derived from this sort of initiative can happily run in parallel to scientific analysis and help inform the debate.

It takes no time at all to submit something-I did it last week after encountering a crayfish and whilst you and others may feel its pointless, I actually felt like I was helping a bit- contributing in some small way to a cause that all anglers should be united over. I have no idea ultimately what value will be derived from this work. But I am more than happy to support an angler who is prepared to do something practical and of course everyone has the choice to do the same or ignore it. Its just a bit depressing when initiatives such as this get the "what's the point" treatment.

I don't know how many anglers will be arsed to do the survey, and in terms of apathetic anglers, aren't you simply committing the same crime in your response to this?
 
If we as anglers are concerned about the predation of our fish stocks on our rivers and lakes ? We talk about Otters , Cormorants and Goosander's and how they are having a impact on our fish stocks .

One predator that has not been talked about that was introduced illegally many years ago to our rivers and waterways is the Zander .

I assume Zander just like Otters , Cormorants and Goosander are having a impact on our fish stocks .

So the question I ask is . If we as anglers are concerned about the impact of Otters ,Goosanders and Cormorants are having on fish stocks . Then why are illegally stocked non native Zander that were introduced many years ago not on the list of predators that we as anglers should be concerned about ?
 
Predation to a great extent is a natural evolving situation but surely the answer is to have naturally reproducing species in sufficient numbers , this in my opinion is in our own hands.
Pollution from industrial and agricultural activities is the biggest destroyer of the river food chain together with water abstraction and the overuse of pesticides. It is in our hands to sort out these problems but very unlikely to happen as the vested interests are too powerful.
The EA in there own slothful way are trying to improve things such as installing fish passes and checking water quality but then resort to political panics by destroying bank side vegetation to supposedly help alleviate flooding.
Good luck to the guys with their survey.
 
Joe, carp are not an indigenous species and as omnivores will eat fish eggs. You tell the bivvy brigade that they've all got to go! :)
 
Bryce Henderson said:
Predation to a great extent is a natural evolving situation but surely the answer is to have naturally reproducing species in sufficient numbers , this in my opinion is in our own hands.
Pollution from industrial and agricultural activities is the biggest destroyer of the river food chain together with water abstraction and the overuse of pesticides. It is in our hands to sort out these problems but very unlikely to happen as the vested interests are too powerful.
The EA in there own slothful way are trying to improve things such as installing fish passes and checking water quality but then resort to political panics by destroying bank side vegetation to supposedly help alleviate flooding.
Good luck to the guys with their survey.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The biggest issue therein is unless you know what you've got to start with you cannot know what the impact is.
X-14=... pretty uniformative.
There is in my opinion merit to this work proposed but it needs expansion to be fully effective.
 
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