• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

The fishery predation survey

Graham , of course John is entitled to express his opinion just as I and others are entitled to express our views . As to opinions being ''holier than thou ''well again that's an opinion isn't it . Lets just have a friendly debate and leave it at that eh ? :D
 
Mike you correct , everyones able to express their opinion on here mate, me, anything that endangers my fishing enjoyment to me is a wipe it out situation,
worked damn hard all my life and now i wanna enjoy the rewards, as far as barbel and the 60s and 70s go they were definately not the heavyweights we have now but (a BIG part of Why i opioned myself here) there were certainly more barbel being caught in london catchment area and surroundings, ie thames , lea, coppermill, kennet for just a few to start than there are today,
yes pollution, water abstraction, mink, cormorants and now otters to name just some of the culprits for our rivers demise BUT! when species are deliberately
put in our rivers that will go after the larger species ( there aint a mass of eels like there were back in the 50/60s for then to gorge on) then that action is a complete disregard to us anglers who are the real guardians of our waterways
and lakes ect. thats what rankles me, undo whats taken us 60 odd years to acheive to satisfy some few misguided and probably bored with life interferering persons interfere and tinker
with the beaughtiful banks and wildlife that our waters contain through our bumbling but getting there efforts, anyone can interfere with whats working ok and muck it up. what it really takes is the real lifetime attitude of enjoying and helping our fishing and surroundings.
Who really cares what these minority of tree huggers and ne,er do well doers think, 1st words that come to mind is F**** em,:mad:
 
Oh and getting on the zander bit if my 71 year old memory serves me true these were introduced in places like the fens ect to keep the small stunted over populated silver fish down, at least that exercise was carried out in the welfare and future of our fish stocks rightly or wrongly the intentions were for the good of fishing, how many anglers young and old are there in the uk?
now how many otter lovers who regulary go out watching them and studying them are there............think about it
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
Graham , of course John is entitled to express his opinion just as I and others are entitled to express our views . As to opinions being ''holier than thou ''well again that's an opinion isn't it . Lets just have a friendly debate and leave it at that eh ? :D
Click to expand...


Comments Mike Not opinions.
 
John Walker said:
Who really cares what these minority of tree huggers and ne,er do well doers think, 1st words that come to mind is F**** em,:mad:
Click to expand...

I'd say us fishermen are more likely in the minority when it comes to Otters, which is why all our fuss and bluster will amount to nothing.
 
Graham Young said:
My opinion is that otters were the straw that broke the camels back and bear a large part of the blame for the demise of barbel in so many rivers, is it right who knows but I will take some persuading that it isn't.
Click to expand...

I would go along with that, thing is its the least likely problem that can ever be dealt with and my opinion is that the predation survey wouldn't have started if it hadn't been for otters returning to the rivers.

carp and commercial fisheries now realise they have to fence waters off to protect them and the predation action group website hasn't been updated for many years. what they are upto now I don't know as there seems to be little or no media coverage for them now.

at a guess if you asked most anglers if they thought predation was affecting there fishing they would probably say no as they mainly fish commercial pools. the match anglers around oxford would say the Thames as never fished better.

so that leaves specimen river anglers which I would imagine are in the minority when it comes to fishing as a whole and out of them there views and experience's vary greatly when it comes to predation. now not putting John down but he is at one extreme of the views and I would say i'm towards the other but not totally naïve or extreme. I do vary my fishing greatly and rarely barbel fish nowadays, but if I did just fish for barbel and it meant everything to me my opinion of otters might be totally different.
 
Whatever your views on otter predation of barbel, and I think we established a long time ago that there is a range of opinions on the subject, one thing that is beyond dispute is the fact the otter persecution is illegal.

If you think otters should be culled and want to call for the law to to be changed, then that’s fair enough. It is a free country and everyone is entitled to an opinion. On the other hand, calling for anglers to simply ignore the law of land and start culling otters ‘wiping them out’ isn’t fair enough in my opinion. Should everyone be free to just ignore the parts of the law that don’t suit them?

And putting such comments on a public forum isn’t exactly very smart PR for our minority recreational pursuit is it?
 
There is a way to control Otter numbers and that is through contraception but the will has to be there to do it and more importantly the money to do it, I doubt that either would be available, With Otters becoming more urban as they discover food is easier to get I see it as only a matter of time before a cuddly Otter bites or kills a family pet or god forbid a child.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
Whatever your views on otter predation of barbel, and I think we established a long time ago that there is a range of opinions on the subject, one thing that is beyond dispute is the fact the otter persecution is illegal.

If you think otters should be culled and want to call for the law to to be changed, then that’s fair enough. It is a free country and everyone is entitled to an opinion. On the other hand, calling for anglers to simply ignore the law of land and start culling otters ‘wiping them out’ isn’t fair enough in my opinion. Should everyone be free to just ignore the parts of the law that don’t suit them?

And putting such comments on a public forum isn’t exactly very smart PR for our minority recreational pursuit is it?
Click to expand...


Absolutely not but I would challenge anyone that says they have never broken a law, or are some laws ok to break and others not ;)
 
I would speculate that the law with regard to Otter protection is quietly 'ignored' by the guardians of rivers that contain a run of Salmon or Sea Trout . The key word here being ' quietly ' i.e. shoot or trap the Otters and keep stum . The problem arises for the angler when people call publicly and vociferously for a cull of Otters , this is when Joe Public informed by the press / media get wind of it and the angling fraternity are vilified publicly . Whether we like it or not if the view that anglers hate Otters and want them dead becomes high profile then the sport that we love could be in very serious trouble . One only has to look at what happened to fox hunting to see that.To be clear I don't condone the illegal killing of Otters or support fox hunting
 
Graham Young said:
Absolutely not but I would challenge anyone that says they have never broken a law, or are some laws ok to break and others not ;)
Click to expand...

I would answer that Graham, but I'm in a rush to find my kids so I can rub tiger dung on them so as to repel any otters that might be planning to attack them on their way home from school ;-)
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
I would speculate that the law with regard to Otter protection is quietly 'ignored' by the guardians of rivers that contain a run of Salmon or Sea Trout . The key word here being ' quietly ' i.e. shoot or trap the Otters and keep stum . The problem arises for the angler when people call publicly and vociferously for a cull of Otters , this is when Joe Public informed by the press / media get wind of it and the angling fraternity are vilified publicly . Whether we like it or not if the view that anglers hate Otters and want them dead becomes high profile then the sport that we love could be in very serious trouble . One only has to look at what happened to fox hunting to see that.To be clear I don't condone the illegal killing of Otters or support fox hunting
Click to expand...

Exactly Mike. The growing groundswell of rising public opinion against driven grouse shooting is a prime example. Last year saw a debate in parliament on the subject of banning driven grouse shooting thanks to the systematic persecution of hen harriers by the grouse shoots. Grouse shooters however have the establishment on their side - barbel anglers don't.
 
why dont we just lay down our rods and quietly allow A MINORITY to stop us going fishing any more. i was brought up to dads rule that was if a lad hits you then hit him back hard dont let him bully you,
as a returning soldier coming back from world war 11 after many years i understood what he was teaching me, dont lay down and let em walk all over you Push em back!, thats my opinion of all of this and wont comment on it again, alone on the river i,ll get my 30lb line and a very big spoon out and
see if i can land a biggun
 
Joe Winstanley said:
Exactly Mike. The growing groundswell of rising public opinion against driven grouse shooting is a prime example. Last year saw a debate in parliament on the subject of banning driven grouse shooting thanks to the systematic persecution of hen harriers by the grouse shoots. Grouse shooters however have the establishment on their side - barbel anglers don't.
Click to expand...

And this is an example of why Joe. What evidence do you have of systematic persecution of Hen Harriers by the grouse shoots? Or did you get your info from Chris Packham, recently proven to have falsely used major companies names to pursue his agenda? Companies that hastened to distance themselves from a BBC presenter who labels shooters "psychopaths". Did you read of the Hen Harrier that Packham and his cronies claimed to have been shot by a gamekeeper turning up unharmed? I doubt it, they keep that sort of thing quiet!
 
John Walker said:
why dont we just lay down our rods and quietly allow A MINORITY to stop us going fishing any more. i was brought up to dads rule that was if a lad hits you then hit him back hard dont let him bully you,
as a returning soldier coming back from world war 11 after many years i understood what he was teaching me, dont lay down and let em walk all over you Push em back!, thats my opinion of all of this and wont comment on it again, alone on the river i,ll get my 30lb line and a very big spoon out and
see if i can land a biggun
Click to expand...

I agree John, too many people are craven apologists for their sport. I shoot and fish and don't give a toss who thinks it's right or not; both are perfectly legal pursuits and I honestly think all this talk of the general public turning on anglers because they are not otter huggers is exaggerated. The general public as a whole couldn't give a toss about anglers or otters, it's just the noisy minority who make them seem like a majority.
 
Alex Gowney said:
And this is an example of why Joe. What evidence do you have of systematic persecution of Hen Harriers by the grouse shoots? Or did you get your info from Chris Packham, recently proven to have falsely used major companies names to pursue his agenda? Companies that hastened to distance themselves from a BBC presenter who labels shooters "psychopaths". Did you read of the Hen Harrier that Packham and his cronies claimed to have been shot by a gamekeeper turning up unharmed? I doubt it, they keep that sort of thing quiet!
Click to expand...

It's a subject I'm very well informed upon Alex. Everyone who is properly informed on the subject knows exactly what is going on, it's hardly a secret.

There is believed to be enough suitable habitat to support around 330 pairs of breeding Hen Harriers in England (JNCC Report No.441) yet in recent years breeding attempts have been in the single figures, and mostly on land not used for driven grouse shooting.

The joint raptor study at Langholm - have you read it? If you haven't then you really should. It was set up because of the clear conflict between hen harriers and driven grouse shooting, and it established that hen harriers and commercial driven grouse shooting are simply not compatible due to the lack of shootable surplus resultant from hen harrier predation of young grouse.

Why is the grouse shooting industry lobbying for the introduction of a hen harrier brood management scheme on grouse moor's ? What was it Amanda Anderson of the Moorland Association said last year " if we let the hen harrier in, we will soon have nothing else. That is why we need a brood management plan"

If you want to read up on the subject Alex, as as well as the joint raptor study at Langholm, you should read the following:

'The effects of illegal killing and destruction of nests by humans on the population dynamics of hen harriers in Scotland' Journal of Applied Ecology, Vol 34, pp 1081-1105.

'Global dispersion of nesting Hen Harriers; implications for grouse moor's in the UK' G.R Potts 1998.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
It's a subject I'm very well informed upon Alex. Everyone who is properly informed on the subject knows exactly what is going on, it's hardly a secret.

There is believed to be enough suitable habitat to support around 330 pairs of breeding Hen Harriers in England (JNCC Report No.441) yet in recent years breeding attempts have been in the single figures, and mostly on land not used for driven grouse shooting.

The joint raptor study at Langholm - have you read it? If you haven't then you really should. It was set up because of the clear conflict between hen harriers and driven grouse shooting, and it established that hen harriers and commercial driven grouse shooting are simply not compatible due to the lack of shootable surplus resultant from hen harrier predation of young grouse.

Why is the grouse shooting industry lobbying for the introduction of a hen harrier brood management scheme on grouse moor's ? What was it Amanda Anderson of the Moorland Association said last year " if we let the hen harrier in, we will soon have nothing else. That is why we need a brood management plan"

If you want to read up on the subject Alex, as as well as the joint raptor study at Langholm, you should read the following:

'The effects of illegal killing and destruction of nests by humans on the population dynamics of hen harriers in Scotland' Journal of Applied Ecology, Vol 34, pp 1081-1105.

'Global dispersion of nesting Hen Harriers; implications for grouse moor's in the UK' G.R Potts 1998.
Click to expand...



Joe, while I respect your views on this, it hardly constitutes hard evidence of a "systematic" persecution of Hen Harriers. Reports can read however the authors want them to read. Evidence of any systematic destruction would be the regular and successful prosecution of the perpetrators responsible. Typical is the bird found alive and well after Packham had claimed it had been shot. No publicity about that from the anti grouse shooting brigade because their agenda is to ban shooting, not to present all the facts. The fact that grouse moors require a breeding management scheme means what exactly? That is no different to saying that anyone who calls for otter control must be illegally culling them. Nobody doubts that Hen Harriers eat grouse, just as otters eat barbel. But evidence of illegal culling needs to be proven, not just specualted.
 
Catching keepers in the act is devilishly difficult Alex given the terrain and remote locations, hence there have only been around 20 or so convictions of raptor persecution on grouse moors since 2000. And it’s not an area that the police are able to devote a lot of time and resource to.

I’m pro shooting Alex, I love my walked up rough shooting and the ocassional spot of wildfowling, I even spent a year of my life training to be a gamekeeper. I don’t think I have an agenda? I think what has happened to ‘driven’ grouse shooting in the last decade is pretty unpalatable though. In the old days when the shoots were managed forthe benefit of a select handful of landed gentry a balance could be struck. These days the majority of grouse moors are very intensively managed and there is a zero tolerance of any predators. Living close to several grouse moors I’ve observed these changes with my own eyes, just look at what has happened in the Forest of Bowland in the last 30 years. The area was probably the jewel in the crown for birds of prey in the English uplands, with around 39 pairs of breeding hen harriers and 18 breeding pairs of peregrine. All wiped out since the commercialisation of the driven grouse shooting, all to provide more birds for city traders and overseas businessmen, and subsidised by the UK taxpayer.

By the way, two of the reports I’ve linked, one was written by the late, great Dick Potts who was the head of the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust. I can’t think of anyone who has done more to bridge the gap between shooting and conservation. He would be the last person you could used of bias or having an anti shooting agenda. The GWCT also jointly produced the study at Langholm. The whole point of Langholm was to observe what happened on a grouse Moor when hen harriers were tolerated. The study proved that essentially driven grouse shooting became unfeasible due to the lack of shootable surplus. Hence it’s no surprise that keepers on commercially minded moors cannot tolerate their presence. I don’t blame the keepers by the way, it’s their employers that are really culpable.

The brood management scheme is a proposal produced by the GWCT. In essence, it proposes that when keepers discover hen harriers breeding on their moors, rather than destroying or disturbing the nest as is the usual practice, the harriers are allowed to breed, but then the young chicks are taken into captivity and subsequently released into the English lowlands and places like Dartmoor.

Ps , I don’t know about the issue with Chris Packham, it’s not something I’m aware of.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top