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tentative bites:what's going on-help!

Many thanks guys for all the advice given-hugely valuable. I have indeed ended up with my head up my rear end trying to analyse what on earth is happening on the river bed. However, I did manage to put some of the advice into practice this evening as I grabbed a few hours by the river. Having lost 90% of my tackle to a thief just over a week ago, I was rather limited in terms of changes I could make but the key refinements I made was to lengthen the hooklink to around 3ft, get a better balance in terms of the hook and bait size, shorten the hair and after casting, tighten up to the lead more than I would normally, and finally, used a different shaped piece if spicy meat than normal. It was a quiet evening with just a single bite (on the last cast!). A no nonsense solid pull resulting in a fish of 9lb 4 and a great end to the season. Also worth noting that after casting, rather than putting the rod in the rests (well rest in fact-this being the one that the thief kindly left behind) I held it high, again with a fairly tight line to the lead. The bite was unmistakable and I was able to hit it instantly. I reckon though that even if the rod had been in rests, the bite would have been the 3ft twitch mentioned within the threads. Anyway, thanks again guys and I look forward to putting all this into practice again next season.
 
Fascinating stuff all this and personally I am in a bit of state of confusion as to what is the best rig to turn those little rattles into fish in the net. I listen to others when the suggest using a longer hair to deter chub, and when I do that there is no obvious benefit, so I revert back to a short hair, and again no change, so then I consider the length of the hook length, and I am told that at least three foot should be the way to go, and then some consider a 12'' maximum.

But there seems to be a common thread in all this in that the little knocks seem more common, and hitting them when previously we would 'sit on our hands' is working for some, Joe Fletcher told me yesterday that is exactly what he had (twitches) and going against all the rules he struck one and a new pb was in the net!!

I fished the Lower Severn this pm and as soon as dusk fell I was getting twitches on my 12mm hallibut pellet, thet were similar to the prelude quiver of the tip as a barbel moves over the bait..... but nothing developed, and I hit an 'air shot' and cursed my luck when I missed...it was freezing cold so I hit the road and watched Chelski find the net where I couldn't :)

Graham has suggested the right size hook to match the bait, I think I have been guilty of fishing too small a hook. So with that in mind and lusing a longer hook length, and keeping the tip DOWN!!! I reckon I have a winning formula for the closed season :p Only to be cruelly exposed as flawed come June 16th
That's Fishing......:D
 
Neil. Try a 9 inch hooklink. Better. Especially if fishing the feeder and the fish are nudging it.................

Bouncing tips and twitches. Two Other Main Reasons.

Bouncing - (I strike these) Most common, the fish is already hooked but happily continuing to feed unaware of it.

or

Twitches, as per feeder / hooklink comment first

or


Fast jerky twitches (I strike these) It's trying to get rid of that annoying bit of pebble/stone/stick/iron that got into its mouth with the food particle and its normal filter method using its gills to exhale it wont work.

Graham
 
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Graham Elliott said:
Neil. Try a 9 inch hooklink. Better. Especially if fishing the feeder and the fish are nudging it.................

Bouncing tips and twitches. Two Other Main Reasons.

Bouncing - (I strike these) Most common, the fish is already hooked but happily continuing to feed unaware of it.

or

Twitches, as per feeder / hooklink comment first

or


Fast jerky twitches (I strike these) It's trying to get rid of that annoying bit of pebble/stone/stick/iron that got into its mouth with the food particle and its normal filter method using its gills to exhale it wont work.

Graham
Click to expand...


Or..............


6-8 inch stiff hooklength, short hair, bolt-rig.

Relax.

Wait. :D


It's not a full-on panacea for all scenarios, but by Gum it catches a lot of fish. :)
 
Threads like this doesn't half ramp up your paranoia when you're on the bank!

I've been fishing nice and light recently, touch legering with a 2 swan link leger with a blob of putty a few feet up the mainline as a backlead, and a simple supple braided hooklength with a fairly short hair. The reasoning behind this was to give me a better chance with the chub (which I'm not convinced about so far) and also because I think the barbel are very, very wary of heavy leads crashing into the water, my biggest barbel have all come on the Colne (which doesn't support a huge barbel population) when the lead has entered the water silently, and often bites can be fairly quick.

Using the light link leger hasn't stopped the average barbel wrench, although I have hit a few twitchy bites that have turned into barbel so there is always food for thought and no doubt we get 'done' more often than we think as we are sat there completely unaware as that 17lber has picked up our bait and ejected it while we are busy cursing chublets.

I don't think you can go far wrong with a short bolt rigged arrangement and sit on your hands waiting for the rod to depart the scene, but I have had some positive results with light link legers the last couple of seasons to know that there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, not to mention getting the float rod out.
 
Good observations Chris. In fact when I first returned to the sport late last year I was blanking each visit. It was only when a tackle hungry tree meant that I had to start again that in frustration more than anything, I simply tied a size 8 hook to the mainline and stuffed it in a chunky piece of spicy meat, that I caught my first fish. Simple as you like. The huge variable here I guess is just how confident/hungry/competitive the fish are and when they are all these things, its hard not to catch. It's when things are a little tougher that I start agonising about rigs. And in part, like many of us I imagine, its because fishing is often snatched hours here and there, fitting it in with other, less important things (work/family/the garden) which can make you feel like you have to get the rig perfect to give you the best chance of catching. There is seemingly little time to chop and change and experiment. Somewhere in all this is perhaps the need to just relax and enjoy fishing-whatever is happening!

I certainly agree with you about leads crashing in and that's partly why I have been reluctant to lob in a bait dropper (although many, many people swear by them and seem to catch very well). I wonder if, when confronted by spooky fish, limiting noise, resistance etc feels like a good approach. Anyway, I am looking forward to a new season of agony, stress and frustration (hang on, fishing is meant to be an antidote to these everyday experiences). If you are not learning, you are not living.
 
Chris Summersell said:
I think the barbel are very, very wary of heavy leads crashing into the water, my biggest barbel have all come on the Colne (which doesn't support a huge barbel population) when the lead has entered the water silently, and often bites can be fairly quick.
Click to expand...


I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference to the fish Chris. Where you can reach your spot by lowering in, it makes for more confidence that your rig is lying correctly by doing so, but it doesn't scare the fish off.

Consider how much "noise" they have to contend with. Coots chasing each other around, swans smashing around, kingfishers diving in and so on?

I've caught enough barbel and chub within a few minutes, over the years and on small, pressured stretches, having cast a 3oz lead in (or a heavy, packed feeder), not to concern myself about that. I'm sure plenty of others have too.
 
That's an interesting observation Simon - I guess I've (along with many others) been heavily influenced by Trefor West and Dave Mason who were both at pains to emphasise being quiet and lowering in rigs etc.

I've always felt that the surrounding noise of walkers/dogs/birds etc contributed to spooky Barbel who would tend to just feed at night. But I probably think too much and I'm too paranoid!!

Good thread though...
 
When Its very quiet - colder and obvious that the fish are a bit sleepy/comotose. I often think about jumping up and down on the bank to wake them up.:D

Graham
 
I knew you had an "edge" you never told me about, Graham. :D

Chris, although a baitdropper may initially "scare them off", the repeated use of a baitdropper constantly putting bait down will draw fish onto it to the point (after an hour or so in my experience) that you can drop the dropper on their noses and they just keep troughing away. Pure Pavlov.
It's definitely an advantage to have more than one fish in the swim while this is happening, it builds their confidence quicker.

I'm not saying it works as well in cold conditions as in warm, it doesn't, but you can't beat it for a particle attack if you're "on" fish you can see.

I use the Large Seymo :eek: but once they're on the bait, (maggots/hemp) they don't even blink an eye with it landing a foot in front of them.
The advantage of this over a feeder is that there's no rig or hooked bait being presented to them while you build their confidence up. Although you could do it with a large hooklink-less feeder, a big baitdropper lays down more bait, so you don't have to cast in as often. I leave 20 mins per drop.

Once ready (and it usually takes a couple of hours), I would have a 6ft+ hooklink with single maggot and a heavy running lead that's cast for the bait to settle on the upstream end of the baited patch. This way they're less likely to grub around, feel the line and bolt before they're taken the hook.
I've seen them do this.
You see the slightest tremble on the rod-tip while watching a 10lb bullet shoot off downstream!
Interestingly though, it doesn't spook the other fish and they do return some hours later.

Being quiet on the bankside isn't the same as what can be done in the water.
 
Interesting your 6 ft hooklink Si.

On the maggot feeder, normal 2ft hooklink, my experiences of once the fish have come in and are competing against each other they seem pretty oblivious to being caught....for a time.
Really on it they happily feed in mid water, chasing bait around.

After a couple of fish or so and if it does tend to go quiet, I will then pop a feeder without maggots in it, but just the hookbait, a few yards downstream and often start catching again. (most importantly...don't start feeding there or they will just drop back more

Now, whether the fish are spooked or simply they have had a bit of a feed and are happy to drop back and feed with the bait coming to them, using less energy is maybe debateable?
 
The idea is to let the single maggot drift down and settle on the baited area "naturally". I use fluoro with a few shirt button spaced BB's to pin it down and straighten it. The lead is then not landing on their noses.

I usually thread a couple of mm's of worm onto the shank to complete the disguise and add a little scent to make the hookbait stand out without spooking the fish.

I only use this method where I can actually see fish and watch their reaction to what's happenning.
 
Chris Fox said:
That's an interesting observation Simon - I guess I've (along with many others) been heavily influenced by Trefor West and Dave Mason who were both at pains to emphasise being quiet and lowering in rigs etc.

I've always felt that the surrounding noise of walkers/dogs/birds etc contributed to spooky Barbel who would tend to just feed at night. But I probably think too much and I'm too paranoid!!

Good thread though...
Click to expand...

Chris

Dave M taught me all about the near bank approach - but I think it probably depends on the rivers you fish - the Teme/Nidd/Dane etc are smaller quieter rivers (normally) so nearside tactics are essential - often moving after 1 or 2 fish but with Ribble/Wye/Severn/Trent etc then I guess you can cast to the same spot for most of the day if the fish are on it.
 
Hi all, I've followed this thread with interest and I think there's been some very salient points made. Since starting back fishing after over a two year lay off with a health problem, despite putting a lot of bank hours in my results have been very mediocre to say the very least, on a river that the Wednesday and Saturday matchman have taken apart ( or at least compared to my miserable efforts they have, see link)
K.D.A.A.Bewdley Open Match & Festival Details On the last day of the season I fished opposite one and it went something like this. I arrived at around 10am, fed the swim with 4 mil pellets and 10 minutes or so later had my first cast using a feeder and a 14mil on the hook. An hour later the matchmen started to turn up. In no way were they very quiet after arriving with a mountain of tackle on barrows, clomping around their peg errecting platforms, putting in keep nets, having converations with their pals in adjacent pegs and setting up their tackle.
At 11-45 their match started. The angler opposite me started by feeding his swim for about 15 minutes with maggots fired from a catapult about 2 rod lengths out, he did this very precisely and very regularly on the little and often principle. When he started fishing using a waggler he fired a small amount of feed in every cast. After I would guess around 20 minutes he hooked into and played his first Barbel from about 10 or so yards down stream. Following the capture he used the same technique as he had all along of baiting little and often. After the first couple of hours he'd landed three and lost one. He then swapped to the feeder whilst he had a drink and something to eat. The feeder never produced, so when he'd had his break he swapped back to the waggler and almost straight away had another, and not long after lost another one. By this time I still had not so much as a touch. I decided to move to another swim upstream to let him fish the last couple of hours of the match in peace. At five p.m after the match had finished he walked past me on the opposite bank and I called him to ask how he'd ended up, he'd had 6 for just over 30lbs and lost three with hook pulls, and as can be seen on the link it never got him in the frame. Over the last weeks I've made a point of going to watch these matches, and the observations I've made were these. Wether fishing the float or feeder they keep their tackle as simple as possible, the casting is very, very acurate and the feeding is very regular on the little and often principle for the whole 5 hours. They adjust the float depth a lot until they find the depth the fish are feeding at and when the bites dry up they start hunting the depth again until they find them, but all the while feeding as regular as ever. When using the feeder their casting is very acurate each cast and very frequent to start with. They use a long hook length (about 5ft or so) and start by fishing well over, if this shows no sign of producing they try the middle, while this is going on they're feeding an inside line all the while, which they try later in the match, and as you can see the results speak for themselves. What ever my views are on match fishing, keeping Barbel in keepnets etc: is of no consequence what so ever, but to watch the skill and dedication those anglers put into catching fish and the results they obtain in just 5 hours leaves me full of admiration. Sorry about any spelling mistakes etc: but I am 11+ failed. As an after thought I've just started reading Graham Marsden's book "Angling Essays", now there's a thinking mans angler. It's a terrific read in my humble opinion. Take care all and have a great 2012. Kindest Jim.:)
 
A really interesting post. As you can see from the catch returns, my brother has had a pretty good season, to say the least. Many the time he has tried to persuade me to change tactics and fish the waggler more. Next season, I'll take his advice and leave the 4oz feeders and pellets at home. He is available for guiding and if anyone wishes to take advantage and learn his techniques then he can be contacted through me.

The programme is flexible but will start with a decent breakfast whereby I will make the introduction. From there on its off to the river. You will be advised on what to bring although any bits and pieces will be provided. It is suggested that you order maggots well in advance as two to three gallons is the norm. In addition, roughly a bucket full of hump and a load of castors will be required to add bulk.

At the conclusion of the day, I will join you on the debrief at a local hostelry and we then say our fond farewells. Subsequent days will be at a discontinued rate.
 
Hi Jim C, a very good point watching match anglers, they do it for money and as an ex match angler, I wouldnt fish a match unless I thought I was going to win. with this view you strive excellence in your methods be it float or feeder and sometimes fish on the edge of safety with low diameter lines small hooks etc. To this day in my Barbel fishing I use this knowledge to outwit and put fish on the bank. If you ever have a spare day and your around Bewdley or any of the Severn or Wye matches get down and look at these guys, they are imo masters at there game.
A lot of my fishing last year was based on fishing what the day gives me, if the winds right I will choose a venue where I can fish the float for Barbel, if the rivers up a bit I will go for some codding. I see lots of anglers fishing the rivers I fish without varying their game and to me thats their loss and my gain....
As for fishing with buckets of maggots casters it does work, but all in the right swim, river, level etc.
 
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