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Specimen barbel size

Whilst looking for info on old AT specimen size 'zones' I came across this.
9067
 
Love this sort of thing, I remember pouring over each record capture, and wonder...if. Worth noting all these record captures are from Southern venues.
 
Amazing how far we have come in thirty one years , I wonder what has prompted the huge increase in Barbel size,hi protein baits ? I would say that a 14-1/2 pounder is a big fish these days, but not out of the question for any angler who is single minded enough to put in the hours on the right venues .

David
 
I think the phenomenon of large barbel, has reasons that are varied, I think the development in aquacultured barbel is one of the main reasons, I spoke to a well known freshwater biologist only last year and discussed this very thing and he stated that not enough is understood of nature of bred barbel, where wild females are stripped and then fertilized with the milt from wild male barbel l, it could be that a lot of these Trent monsters dont spawn because of their creation process, thus all food intake goes to growth, you have to also bare in mind how many barbel have been stocked (via Calverton) into the Trent system, it runs into 100's of thousands over the last few years. The other thing is that how the male to female mix has gone pear shaped on the lower Trent, the natrual ratio between male and female barbel is about 8 to 1 in the males favour, without doubt all these huge fish being caught are females, so the whole situation is very unnatural. I dont think its much to do with hi protein baits to be honest, below Collingham/Cromwell weir there is a huge source of natrual protein with the huge Lamprey runs, the crustacea in the brackish water, the stuff that comes up on the tide, seaweed, invertebrates etc. that is all highly nutritious. Only last night a friend of mine had a near 16 pounder barbel on a Lamprey chunk.

I also believe that water temperatures on average run higher for longer these days, perhaps due to global warming, especially on some midlands and southern rivers, which allows the barbel to feed longer. So is this surge in the females barbel size due anglers hi protein baits, man's interference in the breeding process or warmer rivers?

Possibly all those reasons and maybe more, I would like see the Barbel Society in conjunction with the EA do study on the tidal Trent barbel phenomenon, because what has happened on that part of the river is unprecedented and nobody really knows why, but it makes you wonder if it could be replicated elsewhere as a response to falling barbel numbers in other parts of the country.

Just a thought.
 
Great post Lol...... I think the situation on the Trent, for many reasons, will never be replicated. I am happy to try catch what the Severn holds, whilst they are still there.When the population dwindles to a level where it's not worth the time I'll target something else..... in the meantime..... tight lines sir.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I think the phenomenon of large barbel, has reasons that are varied, I think the development in aquacultured barbel is one of the main reasons, I spoke to a well known freshwater biologist only last year and discussed this very thing and he stated that not enough is understood of nature of bred barbel, where wild females are stripped and then fertilized with the milt from wild male barbel l, it could be that a lot of these Trent monsters dont spawn because of their creation process, thus all food intake goes to growth, you have to also bare in mind how many barbel have been stocked (via Calverton) into the Trent system, it runs into 100's of thousands over the last few years. The other thing is that how the male to female mix has gone pear shaped on the lower Trent, the natrual ratio between male and female barbel is about 8 to 1 in the males favour, without doubt all these huge fish being caught are females, so the whole situation is very unnatural. I dont think its much to do with hi protein baits to be honest, below Collingham/Cromwell weir there is a huge source of natrual protein with the huge Lamprey runs, the crustacea in the brackish water, the stuff that comes up on the tide, seaweed, invertebrates etc. that is all highly nutritious. Only last night a friend of mine had a near 16 pounder barbel on a Lamprey chunk.

I also believe that water temperatures on average run higher for longer these days, perhaps due to global warming, especially on some midlands and southern rivers, which allows the barbel to feed longer. So is this surge in the females barbel size due anglers hi protein baits, man's interference in the breeding process or warmer rivers?

Possibly all those reasons and maybe more, I would like see the Barbel Society in conjunction with the EA do study on the tidal Trent barbel phenomenon, because what has happened on that part of the river is unprecedented and nobody really knows why, but it makes you wonder if it could be replicated elsewhere as a response to falling barbel numbers in other parts of the country.

Just a thought.
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Have any of the big Trent females been aged Lol... have scale samples been taken? Just wondering where they are on the weight/age spectrum.
 
Terry Simner said:
Have any of the big Trent females been aged Lol... have scale samples been taken? Just wondering where they are on the weight/age spectrum.
Click to expand...
I don't think so Terry, though the EA dont tell us, the angler everything they do or know, this is why i would like to see some form of study done whilst its at its peak, because the stocking of Calverton fingerling barbel and the whole creation process of aquacultured barbel in being stocked into the Trent system could mean the large female barbel of the tidal Trent could be triploids i.e. sort of "sexless" because of the presence of an extra chromosome (3 instead of 2) thus making them unable to breed. The whole process of the creation of triploids trout was to create fast growing super sized fish that didnt waste energy on breeding because they couldn't. As i said there are a lot of questions that could be answered whilst its happening and at its peak, i certainly dont see it lasting for ever, as nothing does.

As a matter of interest the EA did a study on the Teme and Severn and concurd that Severn barbel were faster growing than the Teme fish, and 11 pounder off the Severn was 2 years younger than the same from the Teme, I suppose due to the harsher conditions of the Teme at certain times of the year, so river barbel growth rates are different on some rivers to others.
 
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Lawrence Breakspear said:
I don't think so Terry, though the EA dont tell us, the angler everything they do or know, this is why i would like to see some form of study done whilst its at its peak, because the stocking of Calverton fingerling barbel and the whole creation process of aquacultured barbel in being stocked into the Trent system could mean the large female barbel of the tidal Trent could be triploids i.e. sort of "sexless" because of the presence of an extra chromosome (3 instead of 2) thus making them unable to breed. The whole process of the creation of triploids trout was to create fast growing super sized fish that didnt waste energy on breeding because they couldn't. As i said there are a lot of questions that could be answered whilst its happening and at its peak, i certainly dont see it lasting for ever, as nothing does.

As a matter of interest the EA did a study on the Teme and Severn and concurd that Severn barbel were faster growing than the Teme fish, and 11 pounder off the Severn was 2 years younger than the same from the Teme, I suppose due to the harsher conditions of the Teme at certain times of the year, so river barbel growth rates are different on some rivers to others.
Click to expand...
Yes, I read that study Lol ...with great interest. It surprised/intrigued me, but raised more questions than answers IMO. E.G.. Why? ...Average water temp? Mean flow rate (I think the Teme is the second fastest flowing river in England, or the UK), Edible biomass? Other, yet to be established, factors? And with many of the (especially larger) Teme barbel spending much of their lives in the (Lower) Severn, does their growth rate decrease when/if they migrate permanently to the Teme ...i.e. is it down to the fishes' own inherent metabolism, or is it due to environmental factors (e.g. effort necessary to obtain sustenance i.e. calories in vs. calories out).
Sounds like fodder for a PhD student to me Lol ... a PhD student that this time actually arrives at useful conclusions. :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Terry Simner said:
Yes, I read that study Lol ...with great interest. It surprised/intrigued me, but raised more questions than answers IMO. E.G.. Why? ...Average water temp? Mean flow rate (I think the Teme is the second fastest flowing river in England, or the UK), Edible biomass? Other, yet to be established, factors? And with many of the (especially larger) Teme barbel spending much of their lives in the (Lower) Severn, does their growth rate decrease when/if they migrate permanently to the Teme ...i.e. is it down to the fishes' own inherent metabolism, or is it due to environmental factors (e.g. effort necessary to obtain sustenance i.e. calories in vs. calories out).
Sounds like fodder for a PhD student to me Lol ... a PhD student that this time actually arrives at useful conclusions. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Click to expand...

Yes Terry with every question answered another two remain unanswered, I am no scientist, just an old barbel angler thats interested in these things. I think climates change environments, Katie Guttman Roberts did a very good PhD study on the Teme regarding the declining barbel numbers of the river and her findings basically confirmed what we all thought, that basically there wasn't much wrong with the Teme other than when the now smaller numbers of barbel spawned their fry did not live beyond the first winter and the damage otters had done made the recovery process harder by the year.

But the the lower tidal Trent barbel phenomenon is a worthy mystery that needs solving, its unprecedented and somewhat unnatural on many facets, but its giving great joy to some, its creating new PB's on a daily basis, its status as the UK's premier producer of monster barbel is secured for the moment, I would love to know the age difference of a Collingham 16 and a Thames 16 is....I reckon it could be as much as 10 years.

One day eh?
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Yes Terry with every question answered another two remain unanswered, I am no scientist, just an old barbel angler thats interested in these things. I think climates change environments, Katie Guttman Roberts did a very good PhD study on the Teme regarding the declining barbel numbers of the river and her findings basically confirmed what we all thought, that basically there wasn't much wrong with the Teme other than when the now smaller numbers of barbel spawned their fry did not live beyond the first winter and the damage otters had done made the recovery process harder by the year.

But the the lower tidal Trent barbel phenomenon is a worthy mystery that needs solving, its unprecedented and somewhat unnatural on many facets, but its giving great joy to some, its creating new PB's on a daily basis, its status as the UK's premier producer of monster barbel is secured for the moment, I would love to know the age difference of a Collingham 16 and a Thames 16 is....I reckon it could be as much as 10 years.

One day eh?
Click to expand...
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Yes Terry with every question answered another two remain unanswered, I am no scientist, just an old barbel angler thats interested in these things. I think climates change environments, Katie Guttman Roberts did a very good PhD study on the Teme regarding the declining barbel numbers of the river and her findings basically confirmed what we all thought, that basically there wasn't much wrong with the Teme other than when the now smaller numbers of barbel spawned their fry did not live beyond the first winter and the damage otters had done made the recovery process harder by the year.

But the the lower tidal Trent barbel phenomenon is a worthy mystery that needs solving, its unprecedented and somewhat unnatural on many facets, but its giving great joy to some, its creating new PB's on a daily basis, its status as the UK's premier producer of monster barbel is secured for the moment, I would love to know the age difference of a Collingham 16 and a Thames 16 is....I reckon it could be as much as 10 years.

One day eh?
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Yep, one day, and I'm sure the 'Trent phenomenon' would make excellent PhD material too ...and the right student might actually get truthful answers out of the EA.
But to me the "yes, basically there wasn't much wrong with the Teme" should have been a red flag, or more a Very light/distress flare to fish ecologists. That is, what happened on the Teme wasn't a 'one off'. What happen there happened on many small rivers. And this being the case, this dire situation screams a need for a meta-analysis study at PhD level, otherwise we will never get an answer.
No if, buts, or maybes, no political correctness ...but some good old fashioned fingers need pointing IMO
 
Terry Simner said:
Yep, one day, and I'm sure the 'Trent phenomenon' would make excellent PhD material too ...and the right student might actually get truthful answers out of the EA.
But to me the "yes, basically there wasn't much wrong with the Teme" should have been a red flag, or more a Very light/distress flare to fish ecologists. That is, what happened on the Teme wasn't a 'one off'. What happen there happened on many small rivers. And this being the case, this dire situation screams a need for a meta-analysis study at PhD level, otherwise we will never get an answer.
No if, buts, or maybes, no political correctness ...but some good old fashioned fingers need pointing IMO
Click to expand...
Trouble is the Severn rivers trust, Angling Trust and the EA to a lesser degree dont give a monkeys about the barbel on the Teme, its not only the barbel that have gone on this once wonderful river, big pike, chub, bream, wild carp and roach....all gone.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Trouble is the Severn rivers trust, Angling Trust and the EA to a lesser degree dont give a monkeys about the barbel on the Teme, its not only the barbel that have gone on this once wonderful river, big pike, chub, bream, wild carp and roach....all gone.
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Agree Lol ...they've all (but) gone. Which should only strengthen the felt need for action/research, towards finding the cause(s).
Angling Trust? .....Pffffft.
 
Terry Simner said:
Whilst looking for info on old AT specimen size 'zones' I came across this.
View attachment 9067
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Terry that was the 'NASA' 'Record list', in the 80's the Official British Record Fish Committee (BRFC) Barbel record was Joe Day's 13 lbs 12 oz 1960's Royalty caught specimen. For some further perspective, in the mid to late 80's the official British Chub record was Bill Warrens 1950's 7 lbs 6 oz Royalty caught specimen. Regarding Barbel on the Avon and Stour in the 70's and 80's, we fished for 8's, hoped for 10's and dreamed of catching a 12 pounder.
 
Wow! that brings back memories.
I spent a weeks holiday with a mate on the Throop back in 76.
We both caught our first barbel and plenty of them. The biggest was about six lbs.
Most of the chub being caught were under 3lbs.
Smashed my old Pb (also Troop) the second time I fished the Teme in 2001

I think the biggest to come from the Throop that season was an 11

how times change eh

Paul
 
Terry If I'm correct the swim in the photo is on the South Bank just upstream of where the Moors river enters on the opposite bank and just upstream of you is the high bank and style, leading to nettled beds/long meadow and then Hurn Court bridge? If it is I fished it in 81/82/83 and caught quite a few barbel the biggest around the size of the one your holding.
 
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