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Severn river trust

Jason.

Despite population increases the change is too fast and too widespread..

Oxygen levels are increased through weirs I would guess.
Many riverine disasters are caused through that oxygen level being lowered.
Also weir pools are generally prime spawning areas.......such as Ladysmith on the Trent, the location brood barbel stock come from!!

But overall I have no idea if weir removal is a plus or not.
 
I dont think its fair to say water quality has improved, in fact I think it is the opposite.
 
Trying to restore a whole river system back to even a semblance of health is a bloody difficult task, I don't think there is a team of 'experts' on the planet that do it without making some mistakes on the way. Surely as long as the SRT, or any other RT for that matter, get a lot more right then they get wrong then they'll deserve some credit.

The SRT may well be wrong about Powick but it seems very harsh to judge a whole organisation solely over the management proposals relating to one weir!

I see Dave Mason is an SRT trustee - he doesn't strike me as someone that would be trustee of an organisation that would be remotely detrimental to the interests of coarse angling.
 
Jason Bean said:
At a guess, every river In the country would benefit from the removal of structures that restrict migration.

At a guess there as always been otters on the teme/ Severn, they never died out?

Speight rivers are unique in at certain times migration barriers disappear in floods....thing is it rarely happens at a time of migration.

Barbel we're never indigenous to the Severn catchment so it's a bonus for anglers to have them there

Which large river, considered to be the best angling river in the country as no barriers and as no shortage of predation....the Wye, Severns next door neighbour.

So I find it hard not to support a local rivers trust

Just to give an idea how weir removal is regarded.

Search | The RRC

Then again as mr gauntlet says " it's just jobs for the boys"
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What can I say Mr. Bean, other than that if you care to sift through the list in your link of rivers that have bean 'improved', right near the top you will come across the tiny river Chess, which was 'improved' in 1995.

Now, I have lived within a very few miles of that lovely wee genuine chalk stream for my entire life, and in fact have lived for the past 42 years within 200 yards of it....about a half a mile upstream of the area where the 'improvement' project (weir removal etc.) was carried out. I used to visit it on a regular basis as a youngster, either to fish it or just to be there, such was the attraction

The whole of the river throughout it's length supported an astonishing variety of wildlife, it was a pure joy. The springs that fed it provided crystal clear water that flowed through it's beds of gently waving streamer weed, which parted occasionally to expose the lovely clear gravel bed...and wild brown trout were abundant. There were many rogue rainbows as well, escapees from a local fish farm, many of them weighing in excess of 4 lbs, but they all thrived in this stunning little stream. It did flood occasionally, when the surface water flowed into it during heavy rain....in fact the whole of the lower village flooded at times, but bye and large it behaved itself impeccably.

Then came the 'improvement'. Now I have no proof either way of why it should have happened, but the river levels dropped gradually ever since that time. In more recent years, the upper Chess has dried up completely in the Summer, on numerous occasions. This year for instance, you can use the stream bed as a footpath. As I say, I can't prove a thing. Over abstraction almost certainly comes into it, and who knows what else. What I DO know is that NONE of the fish had any problems at all moving up and down over the small weirs, and prior to being 'improved', it did not, in my time at least, dry up.

Now, if this problem with the Chess is actually down to over abstraction, then that means that the springs of the head water, the source on the edge of the town, will cease to flow enough to form a decent river, and what trickle there is will have soaked into the gravel and disappeared within a mile or two. Now forgive me if my lack of knowledge of such things leads me astray here, but it seems to me that if you have a series of small weirs down the length of such a river, that meager flow will slowly build up behind those weirs until it overflows, and so on down the line, meaning you will have a reasonable depth of water to support riverine life down the entire length, until the refreshing rains return and bring back the stronger flow...which usually doesn't take too long, this being England :D. However, if you remove those weirs, and then over abstraction does it's dirty work, you WILL end up with a dry river...and a whole mass of dead trout, and everything else that once lived in it. Which is exactly what has happened on the upper stretch of the Chess. Removing weirs in larger rivers may well work fine, they have enough diverse sources of water along their length to maintain a flow almost always, but on a small stream with limited feeders? NOT such a good idea. What do ya think? Possible? Naaa, way too far fetched isn't it :rolleyes:

It's all very fine to talk about returning a river to its 'natural' state, removing obstacles to fish migration, and all that stuff. But, if over abstraction is an issue (and it invariably is now) then surely there simply is no longer enough water for that to happen on smaller rivers....you simply don't have enough water to work with. It seems to me that all you are doing by removing small weirs on small rivers is getting rid of what little water you have, as fast as you possibly can. The other works done on these projects obviously helps, narrowing time widened beds, creating diverters and riffles, etc, etc...but removing weirs? Hmmmmm. If we really want to help the situation, we need to stop the localised over abstraction (It IS after all the REAL problem...and it could be done if we care enough). We can then carry on with these lovely 'restoring to nature' plans to our hearts content...and they Will work then, because you will have enough water and natural flow to achieve your aim. In my opinion.

Cheers, Dave.
 
I suppose you could argue that man made weirs replace the natural dams once built by the once native beaver? Just a thought.
 
Each river is unique, so I'm careful not to generalise.
Just a personal opinion on my part is that many weirs are just a product of long defunct mills and industry, which raised water levels on some stretches therefore also aiding navigation, all being part of the canalisation of some of our favourite rivers which still continues in various forms,...dredging for instance.
Flood defence has often been cited as one reason for man to interfere with river levels, ...one reason why the once dreaded mechanical weed cutting on the Hampshire Avon was thought to be essential I believe.
Dave is correct to highlight abstraction, but I still believe there are a number of rivers that would benefit from being rid of weirs.
Some of our lowland rivers suffer badly from eutrophication which cuts out much of the light for the more desirable plant life and one has only got to find a rare shallower, faster section of stream to relalise what it could be like when you look at that tiny oasis of wavering crowfoot. In fact these are the exact spots where the EA will often take fish surveys and kick samples because that is the preferred habitat of much of the water life. When that particular river happens to have a series of weirs creating deep slow murky water for most of its length those surveys just give a false impression of the rivers wellbeing.
As I said, just a personal opinion on some of the rivers that I have got to know well over the years which doesn't include the Severn.:)
 
Rhys Perry said:
I suppose you could argue that man made weirs replace the natural dams once built by the once native beaver? Just a thought.
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That had crossed my mind too Rhys, but then a million and one theories and possible scenarios cross my mind during one of my insomnia fueled rambling sessions :D :D

For instance, I also wondered whether some of the problems with certain issues is this 'best practice' dogma that has come into being. Could that be another 'one size fits all' thing? A 'Get the manual out, find the best practice chapter, and go for it' sort of thing?

My thoughts are that you wouldn't do that with your car would you? If the manual you were using to work on your Ford was for a Vauxhall, but you thought that would be fine because 'a car is a car', you might find you could get away with some of the 'best practice' parts in it, but it would be a risky thing to do, and there's a good chance your Ford wouldl end up in a damned sight worse state than it was before you interfered with it :p

Rivers are individuals. Like everything else in life, no two are the same. There are so many variables that surely each one needs a tailored plan derived from a decent amount of study to determine the particular problems and needs of that particular river. You would then arrive at what could be described as a 'best practice' plan for THAT river. Then again, I admit that I think too much, so I shall shut up :D

Dave Taylor, I have just seen your post, and I feel that makes a lot of sense too. It all comes down to the point we both agree on....what suits one river may NOT suit another. Some of the lower weirs on the Chess were exactly as you described, abandoned mill weirs. That was why I specified 'small' weirs in my previous post, because I agree with you, the larger ones may well do more harm than good in certain rivers. Small weirs, which achieve and maintain a maximum depth of perhaps a couple of feet are fine in my opinion, but you probably do need rid of the larger structures, if they are causing the issues you describe on a particular river.

Cheers, Dave.
 
I personally believe that the suggestion and the ultimate plan to remove Powick Weir from the river Teme is more about changing the characteristics of the river than improving it, lets get it right here, the river Teme in my lifetime has been a wonderful diverse river and environment, I have seen that river change from being a mixed game and coarse river of the pre 1970's to becoming a river with a reputation of being perhaps one of the greatest barbel rivers in the country, during the 80's and 90's it became home to some huge barbel and at one time was muted to perhaps one day produce the national record barbel, those barbel originated from the original Severn population and as the Severn barbel population boomed so did the species colonization instincts come into play, as they went from the Severn and into and up the Teme, with no problems getting through and over Powick weir or any other weirs, I often tell the story of how I caught a 12lb 6 ounce barbel during the 90's from Brokamin on the Teme only to catch again the following year from Beauchamp Court on the river Severn, the barbel was easily identifiable, so no problem there with Powick weir, Salmon, Eels, Shad and lamprey have ran up the Teme every year again with no problem, the area below Powick weir is a prime spawning site for all species, no less than for the lower Severns big barbel. The Teme as a barbel river now has changed beyond recognition, infact the population is probably down by 75% or more and each year it gets less, there is a major problem with Teme as a barbel river, infact I dont class it as a barbel river now and as each year passes, it becomes worse, I remember many times when i caught a pair of doubles and some excellent back up fish in a short evening session, with the potential of a monster, but no more.....the Teme was also used by the EA (NRA then) as a nursery river and often took numbers of gravid females and males at certain times of the year for their barbel breeding and distribution plans, then as the time passed through the 2000's and up until now, otter numbers increased and the barbel population plummeted, so the last thing Teme needs is any more Otters (by the way Chub numbers are now falling) or Weirs removed that will reduce the depth of the river by 1.5 meters as this will reduce the Teme to mere trickle (during the summer) between Worcester and Knightwick, it will resemble a graveled, riffled, narrow Trout stream in parts, and here lies the rub, I think thats what the plan is, already clubs are giving up what were once expensive stretches of prime barbel fishing , thats the best case, in other cases clubs and syndicates have folded and disappeared, leaving some parts of the river overgrown and unfishable, yes I might just be focusing on barbel here, but hey, this a barbel web site and I am a barbel fisherman, someone has to fight for their cause, so I make no apologies for being biased, so that is why I cannot support the SRT anymore, we dont need anymore Otters to be let loose, because otters have died or moved off to pastures new and we dont want the weir removed either, if there is a concern for migratory species, then put the appropriate fish passes in, bearing in mind fish passes have been put into the weir since the early 1900's, .......what I want is the Teme to return to its former glory as a premier barbel river for future generations, simple as that.
 
Thats funny Mr Bean......by the way when did you think you had all the answers, mine is a personal opinion and belief......and I am just trying to be candid with that and sharing it on this open forum on a subject i am passionate about, put downs are easily administered, give me a man with an opinion and an idea any day of the week.
 
I understand that Lawrence, when I have time I'll try and put my opinion in better words....same for Dave, i'll try to avoid one of his essays! :D
 
it almost reads as if the work as been done. do you not think removal of the weir would increase migration for barbell. in recent years when a seal moved up from the severn the barbell got bottle necked in the lower?
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
No, its what is being proposed by the SRT.....
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It does seem as the work has been done, I think the last time I was there was the Spring of 2015 and it was still there Lol. However it does seem to be a bit derelict, other weirs along the Teme seem to have no relevance at all too nothing more than Victorian structures that were not built to enhance the River ECO system.
So given that you have far more knowledge than many others on here as to this area, can the removal of these structures really damage the River, or maybe just maybe improve migration?
You make a good argument Lawrence for keeping things as they are, and I am unashamedly a big fan of yours :eek: but looking ahead are there no positives you can see in the SRT plans?
 
The weir is still there, weirs are mainly used to raise the level of a river and channel its flow for mills etc, very much a part of the industrial revolution, obviously times have changed, the higher up you go on the Teme weir removal as less impact, but the lower river above Powick will change dramatically and those lovely deep pools. linked by fast moving water will become shadows of what they are, certain areas at certain times of the year will dry up, just as the higher reaches do now, the river as a barbel river will be destroyed, and the Otters will have a field day with what remains of the bigger fish, there are some big chub, big carp, big bream and decent Pike in the Teme as well as a few big barbel, these will become very exposed to the marauding Otter and other predators, I personally dont think it will make much difference to Barbel moving into the Teme to be honest, what made the barbel originally move into the Teme was their colonization instincts, being forever pushed on by the continuing increase of the Severns barbel population pushing up behind them, but be in no doubt the Severns barbel population is significantly down on what it was and continues to fall, I actually told Tony Bostock this year that the fall in the Temes barbel was actually more to do with problems on the Severn, but the Otter population was was making the problem worse, the Teme is an ideal food providing environment for the Otter, with its deep pools, holes and over hanging trees, it saddens me how the Teme has been destroyed as a barbel river and no one has done anything about it, I have been banging the drum for years now, and my lobbying got the RST and the Angling Trust to put forward this current Phd barbel study, but be in no doubt if the weir is removed it will be the end, the barbel stocks will not recover ever, as I have said, renew the fish passes if all this is about migratory species, just remember no species has a problem with the weir history proves that, its always had Salmon, Sea Trout, Eels, Lampreys and even Flounders have negotiated the weir, the barbel just swim over it in times of flood as they have done so over the last 40 years, and lets not forget that below the weir is a prime spawning site for the lower Severns barbel ....
 
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