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SAD REALISATION

The weakness of the barbel Stephen are the demographics of its population, I have said this before so I apologize for is repetition.

Male barbel outnumber female barbel between 7:1 or 10:1 ratios, females become sexually mature later than the males by about 3 or 4 years, males being at about 4 years old and females are later at about 7 years old, males live for about 7 years with a maximum weight of about 8lb, where as we know females can live 20 plus years and weigh well in excess of 15 pounds, otters find big fish like big barbel, carp and pike easy prey, females produce about 20,000 eggs per year, so on small river stretch with a population of 100 barbel only between 7 or 10 will be female. Big double figured barbel soon fall victim to the predating otter, during the late winter early spring big female barbel soon find themselves without the protection of the shoal due to males leaving for the spawning grounds some 3 months before the females, so it doesnt take much understanding as to how an otter can destroy a barbel population, based on the needs of the otter for its sustenance, the otter will most of the time just eat the gills and offal of the barbel, thus needing to feed again, and again, during the day, its a 24/7 process.

Our barbel river environments cannot sustain their barbel populations along side the otter....

No females means no barbel, its a self fulfilling prophecy, and thats what has happened, otters havent eaten all the barbel, they just ate the females...
 
Read a study done in Northern America studying why up to 90% of returning Salmon die when it rains. Groundbreaking new analysis found that the culprit was a chemical compound found in car tyres used to lessen atmospheric degradation of the tyres, gets in the road runoff.
We've almost certainly got the same stuff here.
I'll put up a link later.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
The weakness of the barbel Stephen are the demographics of its population, I have said this before so I apologize for is repetition.

Male barbel outnumber female barbel between 7:1 or 10:1 ratios, females become sexually mature later than the males by about 3 or 4 years, males being at about 4 years old and females are later at about 7 years old, males live for about 7 years with a maximum weight of about 8lb, where as we know females can live 20 plus years and weigh well in excess of 15 pounds, otters find big fish like big barbel, carp and pike easy prey, females produce about 20,000 eggs per year, so on small river stretch with a population of 100 barbel only between 7 or 10 will be female. Big double figured barbel soon fall victim to the predating otter, during the late winter early spring big female barbel soon find themselves without the protection of the shoal due to males leaving for the spawning grounds some 3 months before the females, so it doesnt take much understanding as to how an otter can destroy a barbel population, based on the needs of the otter for its sustenance, the otter will most of the time just eat the gills and offal of the barbel, thus needing to feed again, and again, during the day, its a 24/7 process.

Our barbel river environments cannot sustain their barbel populations along side the otter....

No females means no barbel, its a self fulfilling prophecy, and thats what has happened, otters havent eaten all the barbel, they just ate the females...
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What a load of alarmist rubbish! Do you actually know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is?
Sorry to be so predictable in disagreeing with you Lawrence but that is the nature of debating with someone with such ill-considered opinions!
And the water quality issue? Proven by some surveys from one stretch of one river?
I suspect water quality is an issue, but across a broad range of issues - sedimentation, pollution, abstraction, a general rise in nitrates and phosphates, endocrine disruptors etc, etc.
I suspect the otter will take a few barbel and carp, and pike, but reading your words you might think it's responsible for CV-19!
I saw my first otter in '97 and my fishing season in '00 was literally a blank! Coincidentally however, in the winter '99-'00 the river spent 6 months a quarter mile wide - a rather unsettling event for a barbel I wouldn't mind adding!
The reason why I disagree with you is I think because you are rather blinkered in your thinking, based on your own interest in catching big barbel, but looking at one thing on one hand, and another on another doesn't make a fact!
I would like to hazard a guess that across many river systems, dace and possibly roach may be doing well, chub are found in ever increasing sizes also.

Damian
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
So why are barbel numbers are falling Damian or at worse barbel numbers have collapsed on many rivers?

The EA have conducted their own studies that confirms pollution, i.e. heavy metal, chemical, un treated effluent and more alarmingly the feminisation of barbel via oestrogen in sewage are a contribution to the demise and collapse of barbel populations on many rivers, studies on the river Severn at Bridgnorth, show that barbe (mainly)l, chub and brown trout are the species most affected and do show signs of feminisation, I think this evidence confirms our rivers are "dirty", as I stated, and why does the EA, NE, AT and the various river trusts agree, so why don't you?

But like you, they all state (publically) the otters are not a problem and the reason for their decline is because of water quality and loss of habitat.

But, the teams responsible for the otters expansion will state its because of how they have cleaned the rivers up and bettered the riverine/otters environment.

It makes me laugh how its ok to say that cormorants are a problem, signal crays are a problem, mink are a problem, rats are a problem, ruddy ducks and gooseanders are a problem, but sssshhhhhh...we can't mention the O word.

However, sarcasm aside, I still believe and I stand by my flag, that the illegal, uncontrolled, undocumented, reintroduction of otters without any impact study being created, has been the main reason for the decline and collapse of barbel populations on a national scale on barbel colonised rivers, it doesn't matter if the barbel are indigenous or stocked, they are all in a state of decline or collapse, otters are an ferocious apex predator, whose presence on any river will be ultimately detrimental, as have been proven, be it a barbel, a carp, a pike big chub or ground nesting birds or the protected endangered Vole, they all decline once otters move in

I expect to be metaphorically smashed to pieces because of my views, but I stand by them...
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Lawrence,

Your theory about the impact of otter predation on large female barbel is a compelling one and deserves be taken seriously and properly researched. Numerous predator-prey relation studies have shown that when a habitat is severely depleted and damaged, the impact of predation becomes much more profound.

But you do seriously undermine the credibility of your theory with some of your other statements.

Do you seriously believe the UK countryside is awash with secret otter farms ? Otters have flourished since the ban on the organochlorine pesticides which decimated their populations in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Limited introductions (117) took place East Anglia and Thames catchments in the 80's and 90's, but you know all this. Otters hung on in Wales and the West Country, what we have witnessed in the last 20-years in terms of otter expansion is natural recolonisation. I know from when I used to go out with the Border Counties Mink Hunt in the 90's just how many otters were about in some of the Severn and Teme tribs.

And you don't have any proof that otters are responsible for a decline in Water Voles. Water voles are well adapted to predation from apex-predators like otters being an r-selected species. Being such prolific breeders they are pretty adept at coping at a population level with predation from otters, it is mink that are the kiss of death. Whilst otters might opportunistically predate a small proportion of a colony, mink are small enough to enter their burrows. As such they can wipe out a whole breeding colony in a relatively short space of time. And there is some evidence that otters displace mink, see here: https://www.researchgate.net/public...nt_with_recovery_of_native_otters_Lutra_lutra

Regarding water quality - I don't think anybody has a proper understanding of the issues. In addition to the issues we are aware of (extraction, sedimentation, eutrophication, sewage discharge, neonics, endocrine disrupters, microplastics, climate change etc) there are so many known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Nobody had a clue about neonics and microplastics a few years. What other nasties are we about to uncover?
 
I think to suggest there isn't some sort of underground otter movement is naïve, even Dave Webb (and I'm no fan of his) of the Wild Otter trust said in the Angling Times that they made errors in the past my uncontrolled otter releases, otter releases where no impact studies had taken place. Otter holts have been and are being built with no control what so ever, only recently a guy has made it his life mission in build otter hols on the Norfolk broads. Only a few months ago it was reported on the TV that the river Stour in Bromsgrove, Worcs had being chosen for reintroduced voles and numerous voles were released, only for them to disappear quickly, they thought that mink were the culprits, so they set some traps, only to find both traps the next day had otters in them. You seem to contradict yourself a little Joe, in one breath you say how mink could the problem for the voles demise, however in another breath you say how otters drive mink out.

To assume that Otters and barbel will happily live side by side, as long as the rivers are nice and clean is ridiculous, thats why expensive carp lakes (inc. Redmire) are being fenced in, there is no difference from the lake to the barbel river, the Otter will see both as a source easy to catch big fish.

But thank you for your comments Joe...
 
“WE MADE MISTAKES” ADMITS OTTER CHARITY
‘Not enough research done before predators’ release’
Angling Times (UK)28 Nov 2017

Otters – did chemicals destroy their natural food?
THE head of the UK’s biggest otter protection group has admitted that organisations like his have ‘made mistakes’ when releasing captive otters into the wild.

David Webb, Chairman of th...
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I think to suggest there isn't some sort of underground otter movement is naïve, even Dave Webb (and I'm no fan of his) of the Wild Otter trust said in the Angling Times that they made errors in the past my uncontrolled otter releases, otter releases where no impact studies had taken place. Otter holts have been and are being built with no control what so ever, only recently a guy has made it his life mission in build otter hols on the Norfolk broads. Only a few months ago it was reported on the TV that the river Stour in Bromsgrove, Worcs had being chosen for reintroduced voles and numerous voles were released, only for them to disappear quickly, they thought that mink were the culprits, so they set some traps, only to find both traps the next day had otters in them. You seem to contradict yourself a little Joe, in one breath you say how mink could the problem for the voles demise, however in another breath you say how otters drive mink out.

To assume that Otters and barbel will happily live side by side, as long as the rivers are nice and clean is ridiculous, thats why expensive carp lakes (inc. Redmire) are being fenced in, there is no difference from the lake to the barbel river, the Otter will see both as a source easy to catch big fish.

But thank you for your comments Joe...
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I don't 'think' mink are a problem for water voles, I know for a fact they are. And there is some evidence otters drive mink out, so explain how I have contradicted myself?

Providing some anecdotal evidence of otters predating recently released water voles is meaningless. Of course otters predate water voles, but water voles are well adapted to predation. What they can't cope with is predation from a species they haven't evolved with, one that is able to enter their breeding colonies and wiped them out almost over night

Just because Dave Webb acknowledges that mistakes were made in the limited release of otters in the 80's and 90's, it doesn't provide any proof they are still being released? Nor does the construction of otter holts.

Where did I state 'otters and barbel will live happily live side by side, as long as the rivers are nice and clean'...? That's you erecting a straw man Lawrence.

As I said, I think the theory regarding the impact of otter predation on larger females is an interesting one, particularly in smaller rivers. But you don't stand a chance of getting policy makers to take you seriously (which I assume is the aim of the barbel society), when you go off-piste and start peddling falsehoods about water voles and otter releases.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I don't 'think' mink are a problem for water voles, I know for a fact they are. And there is some evidence otters drive mink out, so explain how I have contradicted myself?

Providing some anecdotal evidence of otters predating recently released water voles is meaningless. Of course otters predate water voles, but water voles are well adapted to predation. What they can't cope with is predation from a species they haven't evolved with, one that is able to enter their breeding colonies and wiped them out almost over night

Just because Dave Webb acknowledges that mistakes were made in the limited release of otters in the 80's and 90's, it doesn't provide any proof they are still being released? Nor does the construction of otter holts.

Where did I state 'otters and barbel will live happily live side by side, as long as the rivers are nice and clean'...? That's you erecting a straw man Lawrence.

As I said, I think the theory regarding the impact of otter predation on larger females is an interesting one, particularly in smaller rivers. But you don't stand a chance of getting policy makers to take you seriously (which I assume is the aim of the barbel society), when you go off-piste and start peddling falsehoods about water voles and otter releases.
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No false hoods, i have never seen an otter take a swan, but i know it happens, i haven't seen an otter take a 20lb carp, but they do, Dave Webb MBE has been honoured for his work with otters and is recognised as an otter expert, and for you to disregard his statement because he cant prove it, is ridiculous he is admitting to it, no proof required...

But because of your tone, which i am familiar with from others, makes me realise i am wasting my time with you, i have not insulted you, you accuse me of committing a falsehood i.e. telling a lie, and by the way i am speaking for myself not the Barbel Society!
 
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Being devils advocate. I don't think that there's any doubt that otters are a major threat to just about any big fish, be it barbel , pike or carp. My local club Hull and D.A.A have spent thousands on otter fencing all of their still water fisheries. This was precipitated by carp kills from otters using the adjacent land drains as travel corrodors. This obviously isn't practicable on their river fisheries.

The first otter (and two young) that I've seen were in about 1992 on the upper river Welland (fishing for the large dace and medium sized Chub). The landowners stated that there no otters in there until they started finding them dead on the roads. I did some research,and found out from the Otter Trust themselves, that they had stocked the otters much further downstream near Stamford.

Little thought had been given to these stockings. It seems irresponsible , thoughtless and reckless for both otter welfare and fishery interests.
 
“To assume that Otters and barbel will happily live side by side, as long as the rivers are nice and clean is ridiculous, thats why expensive carp lakes (inc. Redmire) are being fenced in, there is no difference from the lake to the barbel river, the Otter will see both as a source easy to catch big fish.”

Totally agree but I don’t think anyone with any sense is suggesting it. You can make an environment as good as you wish but without sufficient fish stocks you simply won’t have any impact, similarly you could add a million fish into a river and the survival rate be next to nil due to the water quality. We all know all that it’s very basic environmental science.

I understand the logic of those who say that nature will find its balance, the trouble is that balance is so far from balanced it is in my opinion a little naive. I’m not sure anyone could even answer the question of what a healthy population load of fish in a British river is or should be. We’ve been messing about since before we were even paying attention. Even if we could press delete on Otters, fish stocks wouldn’t recover by magic.

If and it’s a big if, we managed to create a good environment and create a diverse and healthy population of fish stocks then the predation by otters would be sustainable and negligible. However and this is the important part, that isn’t the situation. Populations of many fish are down, take the Green Eel for example. It’s my belief that there simply isn’t the bio load available to support that predator without serious impact upon other species in the environment. Otters aren’t evil, they aren’t in possession of that ability, in fact after watching them on numerous occasions I don’t think they are in possession of much ability. They’re not highly adapted efficient predators, they are opportunistic, I’m sure we’ve all watched them trying to catch fish. Therein lies a large part of the problem, we’re not talking about animal that is inextricably linked to the survival of its prey, it has the ability to hop from prey to prey till the least desirable option is available at which point it has the ability to bugger off and find new feeding opportunities.

When I see an Otter, especially in the day it’s usually winter. This creature of dawn at dusk out at lunchtime hurriedly expending energy to find food, and failing... it’s struggling. Why on Earth would an animal like that fancy it’s chances against a swan or cross dry land to find lakes it couldn’t possibly know was there, the answers obvious and it’s the same reason a starving Lion takes on a Giraffe.

In short, our rivers aren’t supporting a healthy and diverse population of fish for a multitude of reasons and an apex predator than exists irrespective of its preys health is a exacerbating factor in a poor situation.
 
If you took offence at the term falsehood which I meant in the sense of 'a statement that is not true' rather than 'the act of telling a lie', I apologise. But I maintain that the assertion that otters are responsible for water vole declines (at a population level) and that the current otter population is the result of reintroductions (legal or illegal) and not natural population recovery, is untrue.

I'm not disregarding Dave's statement nor asking him to prove it, I'm simply pointing out it doesn't prove what you imply it does. As I've written on here before, the otter reintroductions which took place in the 80's and 90's were unnecessary as the otter population was naturally repopulating anyway following the removal of organochlorines, namely dieldrin. The parallels between otters and birds of prey which were similarly impacted by dieldrin are remarkable in that regard.

I assumed that as you are on the committee of the Barbel Society, and part of the Research, Conservation and Campaigning sub-commitee then you were representing the Barbel Society, again apologies.
 
OK no worries

Joe you stated on one of your threads that the RSPB (so called conservation group) were actively encouraging the spread of Cormorants...where is you proof of this?

I have never held the role of R&C secretary, I have worked on R&C projects however for the BS inc: Katy Guttman Roberts River Teme PHD study regarding the rivers declining barbel numbers, I led the campaign to save Powick weir from being removed on the river Teme, my focus has always been "the barbel, the barbels environment and the barbel angler", I also campaigned against stolen river barbel being put into still waters as well as Calverton stockies, I have been castigated many times by fellow barbel anglers and supported by many, we got 12000 signatures on the otter control petition remember, but my motives have always been pro barbel and the barbel angler.

I am still a member and supporter of the BS and its aims.

I did have a role that was none specific with the BS, "without portfolio" I think the term was used, but when we formed the BS back in 1995 I did take the role as the first magazine editor. If you need to speak to the BS on R&C matters then contact Steve Pope or Chris Jones
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Joe you stated on one of your threads that the RSPB (so called conservation group) were actively encouraging the spread of Cormorants...where is you proof of this?
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I didn't state that Lawrence. I was quoting a statement (in italics) that the OP made quoting somebody. My comment is in yellow below.

'The RSPB and other "so called" conservation organisations are actively encouraging the spread of cormorants through British inland waters'

The only element of truth in that statement is that by creating new wetlands, some of which are on a vast scale, and by enhancing the management of existing wetland sites you can argue that they are indirectly encouraging the spread of cormorants.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I didn't state that Lawrence. I was quoting a statement (in italics) that the OP made quoting somebody. My comment is in yellow below.

'The RSPB and other "so called" conservation organisations are actively encouraging the spread of cormorants through British inland waters'

The only element of truth in that statement is that by creating new wetlands, some of which are on a vast scale, and by enhancing the management of existing wetland sites you can argue that they are indirectly encouraging the spread of cormorants.
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Ah right....fair comment
 
the demise of the barbel population in the river ivel was down to one thing... not abstraction.. not pollution.... not signal cray fish it was down to the OTTER!! ......and no one will convince me of anything different and it happened in a very short space of time .... months
i don’t really know about other rivers but have my suspicions about the gt ouse and otters also take into account the dwindling eel population on many rivers that is why in my opinion the otter is taking big carp and barbel and pretty much anything else that breathes
 
I could list many rivers like the Ivel Terry...

I was talking to a river keeper on the Windrush not so long ago, he looked after a stretch that once had double figured barbel, big chub, big pike and dace, the otters moved in and took the lot very quickly, in less than a year or so, they then decided to make part of the stretch a trout fly only water, because the coarse anglers didn't buy tickets any more, big rainbows and browns being were stocked, it wasn't long before the otters made in roads into the trout, so to keep an even balance between enough trout for fee paying anglers to fish for (not cheap) and the otters, he has to stock 30% more trout to basically buy the otters off, but as he said this from a financial point of view wasn't sustainable, now before some talk of pollution, loss of habitat for the fishes demise, this is a most beautiful stretch of river, with spawning shallows, gravel beds and supreme water quality, its the otters that have gone in and took the fish, he said for a period of time he would be greeted most mornings with the sight of big barbel, chub and pike with just their entrails and offal taken, not the actions of starving otters.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I could list many rivers like the Ivel Terry...

he said for a period of time he would be greeted most mornings with the sight of big barbel, chub and pike with just their entrails and offal taken, not the actions of starving otters.
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So why did he not take photos and send to the relevant authorities? What i struggle with is if otters are so destructive in such a short period of time, why are we not finding masses of dead fish along the banksides? We get the occasaional photo but not what we might expect given the devestation otters are alleged to cause. I see otters quite regularly on the Wye but as yet have seen no fish remains...what does that tell us given, as far as i understand, they cannot eat their prey in the water?
 
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