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RIP River Colne.

Surely, if this river was in a healthy state before the otters came then there will be plenty of young fish stocks coming through to take the place of the big specimen fish that the otters will undoubtedly feast upon?

If there isnt plenty of year classes of fish coming through then when all the big specimen fish die the river would be in a similar 'RIP' situation? If that’s the case then the river has been dieing a slow death long before the otters turned up.

3, 4 and 5 years ago sightings of otter killed carcusses were much more common on the Ouse than they are now. Infact Ive only seen a few pike carcusses this season and that is round the pits that are on the river. BUT, I did witness otters hunting many times on the river in the summer, at night, and even had the misfortune of hearing something rather sizable get munched one evening on the far bank- the fish splashing in the margins whilst the otter crunched its way through it!

To me this is only is only a problem because there isnt the fish coming through to replace them. This would be the issue no matter how the last remaining fish die.

Its a damn shame watching prime stretches of river go the the wall. I have seen it on a few of good and even not so good stretches of the Ouse. But I cant help thinking that the great specimen fishing that was had was only a snapshot in time and that was all it was ever destined to be. How would the cycle of life carry on if that was not so?

Hi Ash

I just read through the thread again, trying to assimilate others thoughts on this subject, and came across your post again and remembered I had meant to respond to your thoughts earlier.

In the stretch of the Colne I am on about, there is almost nowhere for fish (especially large fish) to hide. There are very few undercut banks, very little ranunculus or other weeds to talk of (too much shade from overhanging trees in most places to allow it to grow), virtually no large, impenetrable (for otters) snags.....nothing. The EA flood prevention lads has seen to that (though that was it's nature anyway, to be fair) In times of normal levels, you have a river which, on average, is probably 20/30 feet wide and anything from 12" to 20" deep, with the odd channel on a few short stretchs approaching three feet. Anything deeper is exceptional, and would be a tiny pool. It has a gravel bed, but nowadays increasing areas of silt (due to the river running through and becoming the G.U. canal in places)...and some of these areas have small beds of cabbages growing, making them the only viable hiding place....which would be fine if barbel liked silt.....and these barbel certainly do not. It has an average flow speed of a slow walking pace, with occasional faster, narrower areas. It is nothing like the Ouse Ash, it has none of veritable jungles of weed, onion patches, reeds and so on, the mass of hiding places common to the upper Ouse, the Hampshire Avon and similar rivers. Rivers with mainly open banks are very different to tiny streams, shaded by trees on both banks for much of their length, for obvious reasons.

There are young fish coming through, the river is healthy enough for that...it is most certainly not a dying river, that is not the problem at all. It is the nature of the river, it's shallowness and general size and lack of hiding places that makes it so vulnerable. That is why I say that the river will not die in any event....but the size of the fish, the quality of the specimen fishing...is what will be lost...and for ever, if barbel take up residence long term. If you think about it, barbel, like all fish (and me) slow down as they get older. They swap the flashy, frantic speed of the 'splasher' sized youngsters and become solid, wonderful fish with immense strength and power...a test for any anglers skills....but NOT a problem for an otter. In a tiny river like this, a percentage of the fast youngsters will survive, but before long virtually all of the slower, 'sitting duck' big fish will be gone....NOT because they had reached the end of their life span...NOT because they weren't healthy...but because they had the bad luck to live in a habitat where there was nowhere for fish of their size to hide when suddenly a large predator turned up, a predator neither they, nor their parents and possibly their grandparents, whatever....had experienced before to any extent. What is worse, in a river like this, the continued presence of these otters will ensure that no future fish can grow to specimen size....the changing nature of fish as they mature will not allow that to happen in an open stream...which has an otter population.

These fish are NOT freaks, not like some much maligned carp that have originally been cross bred (like pigs and cattle) for the table. They are NOT gut buckets or unhealthy, overfed misshapen monsters barely able to move...they are just wonderful healthy BIG fish. They are not even exceptional, far from it....there are plenty of big to medium sized rivers that support similar (and bigger) sized fish, that is their natural eventual size in a healthy river of a suitable nature. Many of them reach this size while living alongside otters too....because their habitat is big enough, and /or provides enough natural hiding places, and/or an abundance of easy prey fish like bream etc....for otters not to be able, nor in fact need to bother them too much....a wonderful and happy situation for all. Sadly for them, the fish in my river have reached their quite natural large size because they happen to have lived in a more or less predator free zone for a very long time...how long I don't know. BUT...that doesn't make them some kind of 'freak', something unnatural and 'deserving to die' as some misguided people like to put it....they are just big fish, exactly like the big Trent and Severn fish or whatever...they have just arrived at those sizes for different reasons.

So...these lovely, healthy big fish, from a population which has given pleasure to anglers for a long time....are quite possibly about to disappear, along with the joy that they bought to so many anglers. Why? because it makes some folk happy that the predators that will cause their demise, predators that now seem bolder, much less wary of man, and willing to live in busy areas, areas they once shunned....are now spreading into their homes. Many of these people in all probability will have no inkling of the effects on other residents of our rivers that otters will wreak, and most probably couldn't care either way anyway. The fact is, the 'holy grail' is found, the oh so cute and cuddly otter, revelling in its film derived name 'Tarka'....is here. The culmination of many peoples efforts and hard work is here and established, and that is all that mattered. Quite a few of those people were involved in artificial breeding and rearing programmes. The possible effects of rearing animals which are naturally not gregarious in artificially close contact with others in confined spaces seems not to have been studied, nor probably cared about....and so remains unknown, both for those animals involved, and the wild animals they subsequently mixed with. No matter, for those involved in that and all the other works and efforts to re-establish otters, it's job done. For the many other residents of our waterways....the already endangered water voles, water birds, fish...in fact any living thing they can get their jaws round...it's job done as well...the end of the road (or river, to be pedantic :rolleyes:)

So WHY should I be happy about that? WHY should I shrug and say 'hey ho, had to happen some time'....'Sh!t happens'...' It's just change/progress, get used to it'.....or any of those annoying platitudes. I probably WILL have to get used to it, because the law will not allow for anything else....but I'l be damned if I will pretend to be happy about it.....or be blinded by the politically motivated nonsense that brought it about. The particular chemicals that sped up the demise of otters have now been banned, otherwise they could not exist....but the fact that they are now back IN NO WAY proves, as the government would have the public believe, that our rivers and waterways in general are 'the cleanest they have ever been'. Otters are air breathing mammals, and as such are immune to the effects of many of the dissolved pollutants that blight our rivers. A few rivers are MUCH better now , but they are exceptions. In general, we are failing miserably to meet the EU guidelines (that were set with the agreement of our government) on improving the health and well-being of our rivers. If you think that the re-appearance of otters (something which is being held up by successive governments as proof of their 'good works' in that direction)...is a coincidence....then you may wish to think about the matter a little more. It may even cross your mind then....may give you cause to wonder at least....about the need for the astonishing and complicated...even draconian levels of protection otters now enjoy.

In my opinion, it's not rocket science, is it? (however much I hate that phrase :D). Governments love a shining light to hold up, a beacon to prove the beauty and effectiveness of their efforts. The brighter that light is...the better....because it's very brightness will blind the public to any hidden agenda, any hidden small print, any cracks appearing in the infrastructure elsewhere. Works every time :(

Cheers, Dave.
 
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Richard, I swore to myself that if this thread did turn in the direction you and one or two others have taken it, I would take no further part in it....but sadly, I don't have the will power to stick to that after reading your latest post. You are clearly an intelligent and articulate person, and you state your case well...and I for one do not deny the truth of some of what you say. However, what I will never understand about folk with your attitude is why you think that everything and anything that happens in our lives and world, however much it saddens and affects us, must be accepted with a meek smile and put down to the inevitability of life. It seems that to challenge anything, to refuse to accept, to voice sadness or concern about things that upset us....is wrong and damaging to us as anglers, and society as a whole. One of the favourite and most frequently voiced (and most galling) platitudes put forward by many to support such opinions is that anything that brings about change, anything that worries or upsets us as individuals, anything we see as a threat....should not only be unquestionably accepted, but should actually be viewed as 'a valuable addition and enrichment to the diversity of our lives'. The oddest thing about that statement is that those who spout such....stuff....not only manage to utter it with a straight face....but actually expect those who hear it to keep a straight face as well.

The basics of your views and others that think the same way seems to be that we must always silently accept the inevitable. In the case of otters, it seems that because they are indigenous to this country, because they have returned, because they have a right to be here....then it is job done....so shut your mouth, smile....and spend your next leisure session trying to decide what hobby you would like to have a bash at next. What you must NOT do is say anything on a forum that just might just reach the ears of Joe public, because he/she has been manipulated by the media to see life in an entirely different and cosy way...and do not want that view challenged. To question why that particular animal should be viewed in that way, whilst lord knows how many other animals have been eradicated at the whim of the 'society' at that time....seems unclear. The reason for 'society' once again being on the verge of culling thousands of badgers, with no real scientific evidence one way or the other to prove that this action would be beneficial, or why the fact that the alternatives available would most likely be more effective is being ignored....seems unclear as well.

I should state at this point that I am NOT in favour of wiping out otters....I just question the view that in some way these animals are different, that they in particular are 'untouchables'. I Have wondered, when I have heard the idea muted before, whether otters could be controlled, as in the case of many other wild animals. However, I really am not sure on that point, I must admit it worries me. I recognise that my views are coloured at present by the impending disaster on my much loved local, and will put that one in abeyance until my thinking is clearer.

In your last post, you are once again scathing and sarcastic when referring to those who voice concerns over the EE situation, so I assume (as it would be in character with your 'accept and shut up' attitude) that you are happy with the issues around the current immigration situation as a whole...and the disaster that is quite possibly about to happen? I would happily debate that with you elsewhere if you wish, but not on this thread....that is WAY beyond the scope of this discussion.

Lastly, you say that "Society no longer tolerates many aspects of the relationship that it had with animals and nature a century ago, this is a fact so get used to it; and anglers are members of society whether they like it or not. Therefore it is imperative that we educate society as to what we are about so that they view us as a benign force for the good of nature and the countryside as a whole". Why do you feel that because 'society' no longer tolerates something, that this 'fact' must be accepted by all? Does the fact that 'society' has been led by the nose to think this way at this moment in time seem to you to be necessarily a good thing Richard? Do you seriously feel that this current cuddly attitude will be sustainable if we are to feed the frightening world population figures predicted for the near future? Again, something to be discussed elsewhere in my view, but just my response to your words.

Again, if you seriously believe we must accept whatever views are current in society....how do you justify this statement (and I quote) "Therefore it is imperative that we educate society as to what we are about so that they view us as a benign force for the good of nature and the countryside as a whole." That doesn't seem to lay well with your call for 'acceptance' of established social views does it? Quite frankly, the general public see us anglers (on the rare occasion when we come into their thoughts at all) as bizarre weirdies who spend their spare time indulging in an utterly pointless pastime....and they are not sure, but they think it MAY be cruel, because they think they heard that somewhere once. They don't usually hold very strong views about us one way or another, not least because fish are cold, slimy things that make them shudder just thinking about them, so not really sure what the cruelty thing is all about anyway....especially as East Enders is just about to come on. Apart from the silliness about East Enders, that attitude has held true for as long as men have angled for pleasure....so whilst I don't like accepting things 'just because they are'....I do accept that the chances of changing that attitude any time soon are vanishingly small. I would also wager that YOU know that to be a fact too, and just typed that sentence because it sounded good at the time. The animal rights lobbyists and anti angling brigade are an altogether different kettle of fish of course (pun intended)....but they will do what they do, for political and umpteen other reasons, if they can spare the time required to attack the local abortion clinic or ban this or that bomb, or can undo the chains attaching themselves to a tree somewhere, in time to get to the latest hoot they have organised to harass anglers on the local cut.

Enough....I could ramble on forever, but it wouldn't get either of us anywhere because we are what we are, and neither of us is likely to change the way the other thinks. I just needed to put a tiny fraction of the thoughts and emotions your post managed to set in motion in my brain...what little is left of it.

Dave.

David,

Firstly thank you for taking the time, and considerable effort, to respond to my post. It is an excellent and well-constructed post but you have made an assumption from my original that is incorrect. I do not suggest that we as anglers, or as society as a whole, just accept change as it is presented to us and just “take it on the chinâ€, just the opposite in fact. The two key points I was trying to make are that

1. Change is constant

2. It is the way we MANAGE that change, rather than simply rail against it, that produces the best long term results.

Other respondents, many of them like yourself who have taken considerable time to do so, have stated (if I broadly sum it up) the view that educating the public is unnecessary / unworkable / ineffective / unlikely to produce results etc etc. I passionately disagree with this viewpoint and I will try and give an example below that I hope illustrates the way I think we should move forward. I also think that forums such as this have a part to play albeit to a lesser degree than bodies that have a physical entity.

One way forward that I know of is via a local angling club in my area, one of many that still form the backbone of Coarse Angling in this country in my opinion.
Every year for the last 8 years or more they have had an open day on our club waters. This is organised with the help of the EA who supply a marquee and all manner of equipment to put on a show regarding the wildlife to be found in and around the aquatic environment. The EA volunteers contribute over and beyond the call of duty, year in and year out, and I cannot speak highly enough of them. In addition there are stalls run by local tackle shops as well as displays representing both sea and game angling. We gather over 20 Level 2 certified angling coaches on the day and aim to let as many adults and children experience angling for the first time as possible. On a good year with fine weather we have given over 600 people their first experience of our pastime in a single day.

The response from the public is usually along the lines of “I never knew there was so much involved with catching fish. My little boy / girl loved it and wants to become a member. We parents love sitting in these beautiful surroundings so it is a day out for all of us. My husband / wife is also hooked now so we have become quite the angling familyâ€.

During the school holidays we run a “teach in†every Tuesday evening to keep the enthusiasm going. How many of these kids / adults do you think are going to grow up with a negative view of angling? How many of their friends are they going to defend angling interests with when they hear negative comments?

There is also a programme to help people with behavior problems using angling as a medium to give them a sense of self-worth. This has spread a positive image of angling far beyond the people actually taking part in it.

All the above is done by dedicated anglers giving of their time just for the love of angling. It is surprising when you talk to these dedicated people just how many of them have been ostracised / banned from single species organization because they could not get on with a pompous ego seeking ruling elite whose agenda lies more with personal promotion than furthering the cause of angling

The above all boils down to education and the value it offers ALL of us. And yet on this forum we still see posts from short sighted people who state that trying to educate Joe Public is a waste of effort and would rather spend their time discussing landing net handles.
 
Richard, I would be the first to applaud any person or group that gives something back to society, particularly if it benefits the young and disaffected. But I think we have to be clear about what we are debating here. To broaden it, I thought it was the impact on our river systems of Otters, Cormorants, and pollution etc. I just don't believe we will get very far if the strategy is to get the general public to appreciate our sport to such an extent that they prioritise its place in society above all else. Our interest in a healthy river system should not be seen as superior to other interests. However, I would hope that by promoting and supporting a balanced river system, then we should naturally benefit because healthy waterways should translate into productive fishing for all. This isn't being short sighted, it's being realistic. I just think that balance in nature (whatever that looks like-something I am not qualified to define) is something that the general public understand and as such would, generally speaking, support when it comes to acts of intervention. Anything that looks like its being done to serve one particular interest is far more likely to fail.
 
David so what about the people out there that dont want to be educated about the joys of being on a river bank and catching fish and watching the wild life that you see ?

How do you explain to those people that would be totally opposed to the idea of culling Otters ? and do you think that those people would listen to your arguments that Otters are taking specimen sized fish and are slowly destroying the fishing on those rivers . As far as non anglers are concerned one fish is no different to another . Regardless of it weight or size .

The next point . Who would sanction such a move ? Otters being a protected species and I would assume the law would have to be changed ?

If the law has to be changed , Then I assume it would have to go through parliment ? and a bill introduced to allow the culling of Otters .

Next point David , and I assume rightly or wrongly that a MP would have to put forward a bill ?

Next point , What do you think would happen when it comes in to the public domain , That some one is trying to introduce a law , To allow the culling of Otters ? and would parliment pass such a law ?
The other point is, If such a law is passed , Who gets to play God and decicides which Otter lives and which one is culled ?

Where I live in Gloucestershire some time ago permission was granted for the shooting and culling of Badgers . It has been postponed for the time being . Threats were made to farmers on the land where these cullings where going to take place .

Badgered: How the cull got nasty - Nature - Environment - The Independent

So do you think that we as Anglers would not suffer the same fate ?
As I said a while ago '' The genie as been let out of the bottle '' and you are never going to put him back .
I may sound like defeatist and I think the battle is lost . I live in the real world and its some thing we will all have to live with and its not going to happen .
 
Hi Dave,

Thanks for giving me a reply.

I feel your pain about your river, I really do.

I take your point about the Colne not being like the Ouse, but would argue that you describe a piece of water totally laking in suitable habitat for a recurring barbel population. A comorant pack would have a field day on such a piece of water you describe.

I have a different perspective to you about otters. Im not going to patronise you by saying I 'used' to feel the same way about otters as you do, but I have definately gone full circle in my thinking about them. In fact, thinking as I do now actually helps me not get angry about it. I got fed up with getting angry with an animal that is as helpless about this situation as we are and indeed the barbel are.

Talking about my river for a second; the Ouse went from being a non-barbel river (only small pockets pre 60s) to a barbel river (70s, 80s 90s) back to a non barbel river (back to small localised pockets again). At which point in time was the 'balance' right? I know a few roach anglers who blame barbel for ruining their sport. The barbel was the rivers apex predator for a time and dominated the environment to the detriment of most other species in the river.

I'd argue that this example highlights there is no such thing as a river balance or what is right or wrong. Instead there is just what there is at any one point in time. That is nature.
 
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I'd argue that this example highlights there is no such thing as a river balance or what is right or wrong. Instead there is just what there is at any one point in time. That is nature.

Ash,

I agree with your point above, IF there was no external interference by Mankind.
But then I guess you could argue Mankind is just another part of Nature with a supposed higher intelligence than other lifeforms :rolleyes:

Dave,

Like others I sympathise with you in the situation are potentially facing.
From the reports I have heard from a mutual friend it sounds a wonderful spot, which I hope is not to the liking of the source of your woe.

regards
Richard
 
Just two small points here.
Someone way back made a comment about how unnatural it is to reinstate a species that has naturally died out. Do I really have to enlarge on this point?

I do still do a bit of Barbel fishing, when I have blanked for half a dozen times on the trot I can generally relay on brainless Berty to pull my string and put a bend in my rod. The fish that lights my fire at the moment is Pike, dirty great big ones with more teeth than the Osmonds. In search of this worthy adversary I am off to fish the Thurne system a week tomorrow. Following the wake of the boat of one of my childhood heroes, Dennis Pye. I have managed to get a rare boat permit for the north broad at Martham for my 60th birthday. It’s not what it was in Dennis's day, controlled by the bloody twitchers of the Norfolk Wildlife Trust; the list of thou shalt not rules are endless. However whilst in conversation with the honorary ranger for the broad I detected he was somewhat less than enamoured with the local otters. When I pushed the point he told me that on the North broad and on Horsey Broad the local poster bird for the Norfolk Wildlife Trust the Bittern had not successfully reared a chick for three years.
Who'd a thought it, our best allies the RSPB.
 
We'll never all agree on this - is it the fault of otters? Is it the fault of man? Is it cormorants? The list of factors contributing to a decline in the quality of fishing is potentially as long as the wait I've had since I last had a bite. And that's pretty long.

I think there's one thing we do all seem to be in concert over though.

Once we go to war with the otter - whether it be through illicit culls or a propaganda war to win the hearts and minds of the public to our side of the argument - once that process has begun, there is no turning back. For me it is a very slippery slope indeed and personally it is a debate I do not think we can win. For all the education and free fishing lessons and days out for families, it will all come to nought when a newspaper decides to dumb down the whole story into tarka the hunter v the catch and release pleasure angler. We will lose hands down. I'm not a natural pessimist. But I think we stand to lose more than we will ever gain if we turn this into a stand off.

As I said earlier in this thread, the Colne is my local river. I am gutted to think the fishing will soon be affected by otter predation. But I would rather have the option to find other species, other waters, adapt to changing circumstances than run the risk of throwing the wrong kind of spotlight onto the sport I love. And lose it all in the process.
 
Dave
I can feel your pain . been there watching the Dorset Stour around Wimborne get trashed in the last 5 years , but nothing will stop it .
Joe public does not see fish as a life form - fact .
What will happen is that you will drive yourself mad , bore the pants off friends and family trying to get them to see that otters are terrible -- and the otters will still be there .
I have had to re-evaluate my whole life due to otters , and seeing them every time I fish they are always on my mind .
Now I realise I fish for fun , relaxation , to achieve goals I set myself . so basically --- I am capable {even after fishing the stretch I love for over 30yrs } of fixing my own attitude and not winding myself up .
With respect , the man who told me this has just passed away - Terry Lampard - awesome fisherman . In his book is a phrase - basically -- when one door closes another surely opens -- and this is so applicable .
We cursed the otters , didn't help , we still blanked , but there are other fish to play with .
Accept that big barbel were a blessing we enjoyed - addictive even .
Keep the memories -- and go seek another form of piscine pleasure .
Whatever you do , I hope you don't waste 3 years as I have done , chasing ghosts and blaming otters until you wind yourself into a frenzy .
Tight lines .
 
Richard H,

I quite agree that education is a worthy, excellent and very worthwhile idea, and can do nothing but good. I salute every angler, club official, whatever who is prepared to get out there and do it, giving up their time almost invariably on a voluntary basis....I admire them, because I no longer get involved, which makes them better men than me.

However, in my opinion, if this education, done with little groups at club level once a weak or whatever...is our only possible response to our problems in the field of public relations, then the game is already up. However worthy these sessions are (and they WILL help, without a doubt) we must face up to reality....they are only a spit in the ocean. It would probably take us 50 years to make any significant difference that way. There are over 62,000,000 residents in this country, and that number is going up rapidly. You take a guess at the number of clubs out there...then work out how many people those clubs can convert in a year, even if they were all engaged in this effort....and then do the maths yourself. Sad, but true.

Joe,

Again, I quite agree. There will be a lot of people out there that do NOT want to be educated, will never be swayed from their own beliefs. It would take an awful lot of educating just to get enough people to agree that angling is a very healthy and worthwhile pursuit. To then get enough of them to accept an otter cull would be a whole new ball game. I really do not know the answer to this problem, nor am I certain I would vote for that policy myself. Confusing isn't it?

However, the angling industry in the UK contributes several billion to the economy every year, so I think angling would be less likely to end up being banned than most other things you can think of, purely on an economics basis.

Ash,

At this moment in time, our river is eminently suitable for barbel, they do breed, and the numbers seem to stay constant, so I can't agree that it is lacking in suitable habitat for a recurring barbel population....PROVIDING it is not faced with an apex predator like an otter. Then of course, it is completely unsuitable. Cormorant packs are not a significant threat in most of this rivers length in my tiny club water, because of the trees that line the bank and it's winding nature. Cormorants need a surprisingly large amount of free space to land...and even more to take off. They are a plague on the lakes in the complex...but not so on the river. The only animal that could effectively wipe out that tiny river, in my opinion, is an otter. We have plenty of mink, but they are not in the same league, and do not seem to affect us barbel wise, though no doubt they are the reason for the downturn in our silver fish population. For me, the best thing thing about an otter is that it will kill mink. In fact, a dog otter supposedly averages 1.25 metres long (roughly 48")....I can think of nothing in our rivers, off the top of my head, that an otter could not kill, if it had a mind to. Think four foot ferret...and you are are pretty well spot on. Otter hounds came in packs, and they were/are BIG dogs....and not without good reason.

Richard W,

Thanks for your thoughts, as you rightly say, our only hope is that the otters seen do not find it to their long term liking, and naff orf to a more des res area :D

See you in a couple of weeks.

Kevin,

How dare you call my lovely fish 'Brainless Berties' :D:D

And another thing...how on earth can you consider pike, of all fish.... 'A more worthy foe' :eek: I have lost count how many times I have had a pike take a roach/whatever on the way in to my net....which held on until I netted it, only for me to discover that it wasn't even hooked...just too dumb to let go :p Not only that, if one follows your catch in but doesn't take it, you have only to rig that roach up on a pike rod and drop it in on the pikes nose in the shallows where it will still be lurking...and it will take it then. If it lunges and misses a time or two (because they are not that proficient) then likely it will moon around until you do catch it....and it won't bother them one iota if you used a spare anchor rope to mount the hooks on because you had no suitable line, either :p Worthy adversary my botty, they are as dim as ditch water :D:D:D

So ner ner ne ner na :D:p:D

David P,

No of course it isn't the otters fault....it is what it is, and sadly, is damned good at what it does. It is indisputably mankinds fault....but since when have we ever let that little fact affect us? The saddest thing will be if we have meddled too much again, and it turns out that otters are now capable of living in much closer proximity to each other, far mor otters to the mile in other words. If that turns out to be the case (hopefully not, hopefully that is just far fetched nonsense) then we will be in all sorts of trouble, as we have been before after our meddling has caused ecological disasters.

As I said further up on this post, I don't see it being economically likely that angling will be banned any time soon. However, if angler numbers drop because our fish become thin on the ground...for whatever reason, then that situation could rapidly change I would think.

Right chaps, we have had a smashing, amicable time here debating this old chestnut, but despite us all acting like perfect gentlemen for once when otters are the subject matter....we have, as ever, ended up chasing our own backsides and ending up no further forward. As has been said on more than one occasion....there is a good reason for that, and that is that this is quite possibly a question with no answer, or at least no achievable solution. My first post was what it was, a cry of anguish over something that may end up being far short of my nightmare scenario....if the savage little rascals do not take up residence and naff off :D Here's hoping, fingers crossed and all that :)

For me, no more need be said, and I thank you all for your thoughts and considered responses. Cheers lads :) Do of course carry on if you wish, all I am saying is that I have done, and again, many thanks one and all.

Dave.
 
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Richard H,


However, in my opinion, if this education, done with little groups at club level once a weak or whatever...is our only possible response to our problems in the field of public relations, then the game is already up. However worthy these sessions are (and they WILL help, without a doubt) we must face up to reality....they are only a spit in the ocean. It would probably take us 50 years to make any significant difference that way. There are over 62,000,000 residents in this country, and that number is going up rapidly. You take a guess at the number of clubs out there...then work out how many people those clubs can convert in a year, even if they were all engaged in this effort....and then do the maths yourself. Sad, but true.

David,

As the great Roger waters has written "Each small candle lights a corner of the dark".
 
David G said

No of course it isn't the otters fault....it is what it is, and sadly, is damned good at what it does. It is indisputably mankinds fault....but since when have we ever let that little fact affect us? The saddest thing will be if we have meddled too much again, and it turns out that otters are now capable of living in much closer proximity to each other, far mor otters to the mile in other words. If that turns out to be the case (hopefully not, hopefully that is just far fetched nonsense) then we will be in all sorts of trouble, as we have been before after our meddling has caused ecological disasters.





Dave that says it all really. Two very salient points about this perceived otter problem. We as anglers have introduced fish where that species should never be. Not just Barbel , have a look what carp anglers have done to countless Tench waters up and down the country. Let’s however have a little scratch at the Barbel situation. Arguably three out of four of the most famous Barbel rivers in the country have a predominant alien Barbel biomass. We, anglers, have upset natures balance and are now moaning like spoiled kids because our toys have been taken away. Having a moan about artificially introduced otters munching on artificially introduced Barbel is just too daft to laugh at. The Severn , the Hampshire, Warwickshire the Bristol and any other Avons I have forgotten about; the Wye the Ribble the Various Stours all have Barbel because we interfered. Your river (I think) along with many others did have an indigenous Barbel population that we killed off. How do you make a case to sell to the majority in this country to reintroduce one species then let another slip into the extinct category? The answer is very simple mate, unpalatable for some but simple. We humans are part of the balance, we are the apex predator, Otters need to be controlled and we are the only species who can. I have said I for one am not to be trusted with a gun but I know a man who is, trust me on this, he is. Don’t know if you or anyone remembers but a while ago on the old forum Ousemaster, posted a pic of a swan killed by otters while protecting he young. It was buried under a pile of disbelief scepticism and red hearings. Otters are killing too many wild fish, tame ones in ornamental ponds and carp puddles and now wild birds. We can build a case to have someone like my mate control the but not on our own. We need allies and all this stuff about blasting otters cormorants EE’s crayfish, this, that and the other is total hogwash and Mr and Mrs birdwatcher and Mr and Mrs Pondkeeper will blow us out rapid if the otterlovers show them this rubbish. These guys who come up with solutions like this will do what they always do, that is just wait for someone else to do it for them. Employing skilled rangers will cost and we will have to pay for it in higher licence fees to employ EA rangers others must contribute as well but as we are the soft target we will pay the most
 
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Legal protection for otters
In England and Wales otters are fully protected under the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) Regulations 1994 (as amended) (the Habitats Regulations). In the following description ‘otter holt’ includes hovers and couches, which are otter resting places above ground. Artificial holts are not considered as holts under the legislation until they are known to be used by otters. The Habitats Regulations make it illegal to:
 Deliberately capture, injure or kill an otter
 Deliberately disturb an otter in such a way as to be likely to significantly affect the local distribution or abundance of otters or the ability of any significant group of otters to survive, breed, rear or nurture their young
 Damage or destroy an otter holt
 Possess or transport an otter or any part of any otter
 Sell (or offer for sale) or exchange an otter
Otters have become exempt from many of the provisions of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended). However, otters are still protected under Section 9(4)(b) and (c) and (5) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act. This means that, in addition to the provisions of the Habitats Regulations, it is also illegal under the Wildlife and Countryside Act to:
 Intentionally or recklessly disturb any otter whilst it is occupying a holt
 Intentionally or recklessly obstruct access to a holt


Apologies if this has been quoted elsewhere, but the only loophole I can see, is that if you fish a river where man-made otter holts are being dug/set up (and I know this doesn't count on your river , David) they are not protected until inhabited by an otter.
 
Otters

We have never lived in an era where otters have been provided with suitable habitat and man has effectively withdrawn from his role of apex predator, so why people keep consoling themselves with the notion that nature will find a balance confuses me. As it stands, nature's balance is being distorted by our neglect of our role as apex predators. On small, sadly often over abstracted rivers, fishing will ultimately become pointless. Otters visit them and clean them out, only returning when fish stocks have recovered sufficiently for it to be worth their while, when the clear out begins again.
The only time anything will be done is when animals other than fish start to suffer and more powerful bodies than the Angling Trust, such as the RSPB, do something about it. The case for angling at present isn't being made very well because our representative body has no power due to pathetic membership numbers. ..................

Nick C
 
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