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RIP River Colne.

David Gauntlett said:
Hi Guys,

Many thanks to all who have offered their sympathy and comforting thoughts, even though it is still very much a case of 'For what we are about to receive' rather than a done deal. When all is said and done, if miracles are real, it may be that these particular otters decide that the location is not up to their high standards and do a runner. Sadly, I am not really a religious person....and recent history suggests that miracles are not too effective at helping the poor old fish in a straight otter versus fish battle. We shall see, and I will keep you posted.



Hi Richard,

At first look, you are of course right. However, if you read my post's carefully, I have offered up very little in the way of contentious issues that any feeling person might wish to dispute. My basic message was an effort to pass on the sad fact that my beautiful tiny local river is quite possibly about to be wiped out by otters, and how I and others quite understandably find that likelihood highly distressing. I have purposely tried to avoid issues based on opinion, preferring to skirt around them in favour of facts based on recent history...plus a few 'wonder if's' for luck. I hoped there was precious little I said for a realist to find fault with, thus avoiding the need for debate, which so often ends in insults and anger where otter issues are concerned. I was not trying to generate debate as such, rather attempting to announce an item of sad news.

I have approached things in this way in an effort to avoid the 'professional disagreers', those who delight in causing arguments for the sake of it, purely because they (bizarrely) gain pleasure in rowing with others. The path usually chosen by these people is that of seeking out the most popularly held views of other forum members and debunking them....and I know for a fact that this is sometimes done even when the antagonist actually holds the same views as the person he is taking to task. Sadly, I have had the misfortune of running in to several of these slightly sad characters over the years, and just for once wished to avoid their further attentions. I merely wished to pass on distressing news...to those who actually cared. I point no accusing fingers here, merely a gentle one indicating the way I had hoped to go with this.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

I can't see that you have any reason to justify this thread Dave. It would be very sad indeed if this forum couldn't find space to allow someone to simply express sadness at the prospective decline of a much loved river. Particularly given that it seems to have played such a big part in your angling life. Hearing you describe it and the fish that have been present, really makes me want to visit and fish it-whilst it is feasible to do so. All the best. Howard.
 
Dave
It will be sad to see another river devoid of specimen fish. The River Hull almost on my doorstep had its specimen Barbel, Carp and Pike taken by half a dozen seals over the course of 18 months starting in February 2009. There are small Barbel starting to show again but the days of 30lb River Pike, double figure Barbel and 20lb+ carp are gone.
 
Lee Iley said:
It is a shame another river destroyed by otters! They all need shooting.
Click to expand...

Well done, keep it up I am sure these sort of comments on BFW will further alienate our cause from the public at large, while were at it we could take out the Cormorants, Seals EE's Mink, Heron Kingfisher, anything that takes 'our' fish, because truth is the public don't give a toss about Barbel or any other fish come to that, and they care a lot less about the likes of you and I

Suggesting shooting a protected and much loved species is hardly Blue Sky Thinking is it Lee?

Bottom line is I feel as defeated as anyone on here about the loss of Barbel to any river, but we have to put things into perspective, and what was suggested earlier that the flip side is the Otter is driving out the mink then a positive, and if the Red Squirrel can do the same to the Greys then we are on a roll.:)

Angling has suffered a huge own goal with the Seal debacle in Bewdley, what with school kids adopting him (actually her) and naming it Sammy, and then 'our' represented body calling for it to be shot!! Well done lads a great service to Angling...Not!!! So keep it up Lee because it won't be the Otter that will be the demise of Angling it will be quotes like this that will be used against us again.

Can we please think before we engage mouth!!

Oh! and Dave I really do feel for you, I really do, and if it is the Otter then surely there is a case to answer, but we do need evidence, and perhaps then we might get some sympathy. What I find odd is the lack of fish carcass, I mean if there is such a slaughter why cant we see the bodies? 'My' stretch of the WA has a few Otters now, only last Sunday Joe and I saw a number of Otter prints in the wet mud, but I have never seen any carcass, which I would expect.

However it is undeniable there is a problem, Windrush, Teme, Bristol Avon, Colne, God knows how many other Rivers too, and these 'smaller' river will suffer more for obvious reasons, but if it is any consolation it seems the larger Rivers are just fine, as is the Severn, Tent and Thames, perhaps we will have to bite the bullet rather than fire it?
 
With the greatest respect Neil, i think your looking through rose tinted glasses.:rolleyes:

These Otters need to be controlled, there is no other way around this problem.
Do we care about our sport more? or what joe public thinks?..
Some people need to ask themselves this question..
As for no carcass,s found, well just about EVERY other meat eating animal will finish off whats left, thats why you dont find many carcass.s..
Its no coincidence that when Otters turn up, the barbel start to disappear..
The EA have finally admitted there is a problem on some rivers and they dont know why..!!!.. They also recognise that its the Barbel that seems to suffer first, again they have no answers as to why..
Oh well another river joins the ever growing list of rivers where mysteriously once Otters turn up, the Barbel disappear..One of lifes mysterys ay chaps..:rolleyes:
 
Craig Wood said:
With the greatest respect Neil, i think your looking through rose tinted glasses.:rolleyes:

These Otters need to be controlled, there is no other way around this problem.
Do we care about our sport more? or what joe public thinks?..
Some people need to ask themselves this question..
As for no carcass,s found, well just about EVERY other meat eating animal will finish off whats left, thats why you dont find many carcass.s..
Its no coincidence that when Otters turn up, the barbel start to disappear..
The EA have finally admitted there is a problem on some rivers and they dont know why..!!!.. They also recognise that its the Barbel that seems to suffer first, again they have no answers as to why..
Oh well another river joins the ever growing list of rivers where mysteriously once Otters turn up, the Barbel disappear..One of lifes mysterys ay chaps..:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I don't think Neil is looking at this issue through rose tinted spectacles, far from it . He is not denying that Otters can cause serious damage to fish stocks , barbel or otherwise . The point he is trying to get across I think is that talk of culls and shooting otters is damaging to the image of angling and anglers . There will never be a legally sanctioned cull of otters , it isn't going to happen . Encouraging shouts on public forums of 'go out and kill them all' is hardly constructive , it's just sounding off . Those who's interests are threatened by otters will I am sure just go out and do what they have to do , quietly, telling nobody . This happens , not saying it is right , but it happens . Dave it is sad that the otter seems likely to come to your river . I have seen it happen on smaller rivers in my area and it's truly heartbreaking , but other than people taking direct , illegal , and in my view immoral direct action against otters , we will. indeed just have to bite the bullet ....
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
I don't think Neil is looking at this issue through rose tinted spectacles, far from it . He is not denying that Otters can cause serious damage to fish stocks , barbel or otherwise . The point he is trying to get across I think is that talk of culls and shooting otters is damaging to the image of angling and anglers . There will never be a legally sanctioned cull of otters , it isn't going to happen . Encouraging shouts on public forums of 'go out and kill them all' is hardly constructive , it's just sounding off . Those who's interests are threatened by otters will I am sure just go out and do what they have to do , quietly, telling nobody . This happens , not saying it is right , but it happens . Dave it is sad that the otter seems likely to come to your river . I have seen it happen on smaller rivers in my area and it's truly heartbreaking , but other than people taking direct , illegal , and in my view immoral direct action against otters , we will. indeed just have to bite the bullet ....
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, What I highlighted is exactly what I was discussing whilst fishing yesterday with a mate.
 
Surely, if this river was in a healthy state before the otters came then there will be plenty of young fish stocks coming through to take the place of the big specimen fish that the otters will undoubtedly feast upon?

If there isnt plenty of year classes of fish coming through then when all the big specimen fish die the river would be in a similar 'RIP' situation? If that’s the case then the river has been dieing a slow death long before the otters turned up.

3, 4 and 5 years ago sightings of otter killed carcusses were much more common on the Ouse than they are now. Infact Ive only seen a few pike carcusses this season and that is round the pits that are on the river. BUT, I did witness otters hunting many times on the river in the summer, at night, and even had the misfortune of hearing something rather sizable get munched one evening on the far bank- the fish splashing in the margins whilst the otter crunched its way through it!

To me this is only is only a problem because there isnt the fish coming through to replace them. This would be the issue no matter how the last remaining fish die.

Its a damn shame watching prime stretches of river go the the wall. I have seen it on a few of good and even not so good stretches of the Ouse. But I cant help thinking that the great specimen fishing that was had was only a snapshot in time and that was all it was ever destined to be. How would the cycle of life carry on if that was not so?
 
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David Hall said:
tone, i think the argument used of why otters went in the first place was MAN!, not nature.
Click to expand...

But you can use the same argument with wolves. There are nutters out there who would like to see these reintroduced. I agree with Tone, things have moved on and the otter declined. Reintroductions have thrown the whole predator/prey relationship up in the air.
 
Craig Wood said:
With the greatest respect Neil, i think your looking through rose tinted glasses.:rolleyes:

These Otters need to be controlled, there is no other way around this problem.
Do we care about our sport more? or what joe public thinks?..
Some people need to ask themselves this question..
As for no carcass,s found, well just about EVERY other meat eating animal will finish off whats left, thats why you dont find many carcass.s..
Its no coincidence that when Otters turn up, the barbel start to disappear..
The EA have finally admitted there is a problem on some rivers and they dont know why..!!!.. They also recognise that its the Barbel that seems to suffer first, again they have no answers as to why..
Oh well another river joins the ever growing list of rivers where mysteriously once Otters turn up, the Barbel disappear..One of lifes mysterys ay chaps..:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

It's a real heart breaker I know, speaking as someone who lives and breathes Barbel and the Rivers they inhabit (or soon not too).

OK so what we can do as Anglers? perhaps we should all lobby our MP's that would be a start, we Anglers are notorious for being walked over, perhaps we should at least start by letting our feelings be known as to the situation. But of course we will need facts to back it up, and what exactly do we have regarding Otter kills? Not much I fear so unless we get facts all the evidence will be circumstantial and seemingly self serving.

I do talk to the non angling public about Otters, and they seem blissfully unaware of the problem and 100% have not seen one to date, which begs the question for what purpose was an apex predator released in the first place without regard to the impact it was bound to have on the smaller waterways not to mention ponds and peoples prize Koi.

For me life should be about choices, if I wish to run a fishery with carp stocked, pay my taxes, and have my living taken away, that is plain wrong, if I fish and pay my license, and have my sport ruined, that is wrong also, so there really fundamental issues of people rights here, and the fact that this situation was not naturally occurring due to the release of an efficient killer is surely something we can voice?

Dave's post about the Colne came from the heart and was really saddening, this guy has had his life altered for the worse, and that is plain wrong and for what? That some smug so called environmentalists can have their way, and yet 99.9% of the public will never see a Otter...crazy.
 
Neil Smart said:
Well done, keep it up I am sure these sort of comments on BFW will further alienate our cause from the public at large, while were at it we could take out the Cormorants, Seals EE's Mink, Heron Kingfisher, anything that takes 'our' fish, because truth is the public don't give a toss about Barbel or any other fish come to that, and they care a lot less about the likes of you and I

Suggesting shooting a protected and much loved species is hardly Blue Sky Thinking is it Lee?

Bottom line is I feel as defeated as anyone on here about the loss of Barbel to any river, but we have to put things into perspective, and what was suggested earlier that the flip side is the Otter is driving out the mink then a positive, and if the Red Squirrel can do the same to the Greys then we are on a roll.:)

Angling has suffered a huge own goal with the Seal debacle in Bewdley, what with school kids adopting him (actually her) and naming it Sammy, and then 'our' represented body calling for it to be shot!! Well done lads a great service to Angling...Not!!! So keep it up Lee because it won't be the Otter that will be the demise of Angling it will be quotes like this that will be used against us again.

Can we please think before we engage mouth!!

Oh! and Dave I really do feel for you, I really do, and if it is the Otter then surely there is a case to answer, but we do need evidence, and perhaps then we might get some sympathy. What I find odd is the lack of fish carcass, I mean if there is such a slaughter why cant we see the bodies? 'My' stretch of the WA has a few Otters now, only last Sunday Joe and I saw a number of Otter prints in the wet mud, but I have never seen any carcass, which I would expect.

However it is undeniable there is a problem, Windrush, Teme, Bristol Avon, Colne, God knows how many other Rivers too, and these 'smaller' river will suffer more for obvious reasons, but if it is any consolation it seems the larger Rivers are just fine, as is the Severn, Tent and Thames, perhaps we will have to bite the bullet rather than fire it?
Click to expand...

Neil,

Thanks for saving me the task of writing a response. We all need to start thinking smarter (no pun intended) if we are ever going to move forward and adapt to change.
 
Neil Smart said:
It's a real heart breaker I know, speaking as someone who lives and breathes Barbel and the Rivers they inhabit (or soon not too).

OK so what we can do as Anglers? perhaps we should all lobby our MP's that would be a start, we Anglers are notorious for being walked over, perhaps we should at least start by letting our feelings be known as to the situation. But of course we will need facts to back it up, and what exactly do we have regarding Otter kills? Not much I fear so unless we get facts all the evidence will be circumstantial and seemingly self serving.

I do talk to the non angling public about Otters, and they seem blissfully unaware of the problem and 100% have not seen one to date, which begs the question for what purpose was an apex predator released in the first place without regard to the impact it was bound to have on the smaller waterways not to mention ponds and peoples prize Koi.

For me life should be about choices, if I wish to run a fishery with carp stocked, pay my taxes, and have my living taken away, that is plain wrong, if I fish and pay my license, and have my sport ruined, that is wrong also, so there really fundamental issues of people rights here, and the fact that this situation was not naturally occurring due to the release of an efficient killer is surely something we can voice?

Dave's post about the Colne came from the heart and was really saddening, this guy has had his life altered for the worse, and that is plain wrong and for what? That some smug so called environmentalists can have their way, and yet 99.9% of the public will never see a Otter...crazy.
Click to expand...

Absulutely spot on Neil..
 
Ash Gould said:
Surely, if this river was in a healthy state before the otters came then there will be plenty of young fish stocks coming through to take the place of the big specimen fish that the otters will undoubtedly feast upon?

If there isnt plenty of year classes of fish coming through then when all the big specimen fish die the river would be in a similar 'RIP' situation? If that’s the case then the river has been dieing a slow death long before the otters turned up.

3, 4 and 5 years ago sightings of otter killed carcusses were much more common on the Ouse than they are now. Infact Ive only seen a few pike carcusses this season and that is round the pits that are on the river. BUT, I did witness otters hunting many times on the river in the summer, at night, and even had the misfortune of hearing something rather sizable get munched one evening on the far bank- the fish splashing in the margins whilst the otter crunched its way through it!

To me this is only is only a problem because there isnt the fish coming through to replace them. This would be the issue no matter how the last remaining fish die.

Its a damn shame watching prime stretches of river go the the wall. I have seen it on a few of good and even not so good stretches of the Ouse. But I cant help thinking that the great specimen fishing that was had was only a snapshot in time and that was all it was ever destined to be. How would the cycle of life carry on if that was not so?
Click to expand...

Interesting points Ash, but otters don't eat only secimen fish, they will eat whatever they catch. As for the fry, well as far as rivers like the Cherwell (also ruined) go, the cormorants sort out the fry. This was not a river in decline, 10-15 years ago it was a top chub and barbel river with a good diversity of species to back these up. I caught barbel under a pound from it and chub could be caught from a few ounces up to six pounds plus. The river was healthy, fish were breeding and nobody mentioned otters or cormorants. Funnily enough, when these two predators started to get mentioned the decline began, accelerated, and now we have a ghost river, virtually. The same scenario can be applied to the Windrush as well.
 
understand your points Neil, but this is a common concern. If we continue to put our public perception first, will it do us any good? If the general public suddenly see us for caring conservationists, will it do us any good? The answer is alomst certainly no. The public at large are indifferent to anglers and love otters. Is anything going to change if they are hostile to anglers and love otters, or friendly to anglers and love otters? Does having such a big concern about our public image really help at all? Personally, I don't think it does and angling needs to stop being so meek and apologetic in a vain attempt to curry favour with the non angling public.
 
Lee Iley said:
It is a shame another river destroyed by otters! They all need shooting.
Click to expand...

Neil Smart said:
Well done, keep it up I am sure these sort of comments on BFW will further alienate our cause from the public at large, while were at it we could take out the Cormorants, Seals EE's Mink, Heron Kingfisher, anything that takes 'our' fish, because truth is the public don't give a toss about Barbel or any other fish come to that, and they care a lot less about the likes of you and I

Suggesting shooting a protected and much loved species is hardly Blue Sky Thinking is it Lee?

Bottom line is I feel as defeated as anyone on here about the loss of Barbel to any river, but we have to put things into perspective, and what was suggested earlier that the flip side is the Otter is driving out the mink then a positive, and if the Red Squirrel can do the same to the Greys then we are on a roll.:)

Angling has suffered a huge own goal with the Seal debacle in Bewdley, what with school kids adopting him (actually her) and naming it Sammy, and then 'our' represented body calling for it to be shot!! Well done lads a great service to Angling...Not!!! So keep it up Lee because it won't be the Otter that will be the demise of Angling it will be quotes like this that will be used against us again.

Can we please think before we engage mouth!!

Oh! and Dave I really do feel for you, I really do, and if it is the Otter then surely there is a case to answer, but we do need evidence, and perhaps then we might get some sympathy. What I find odd is the lack of fish carcass, I mean if there is such a slaughter why cant we see the bodies? 'My' stretch of the WA has a few Otters now, only last Sunday Joe and I saw a number of Otter prints in the wet mud, but I have never seen any carcass, which I would expect.

However it is undeniable there is a problem, Windrush, Teme, Bristol Avon, Colne, God knows how many other Rivers too, and these 'smaller' river will suffer more for obvious reasons, but if it is any consolation it seems the larger Rivers are just fine, as is the Severn, Tent and Thames, perhaps we will have to bite the bullet rather than fire it?
Click to expand...
Nothing is goin to get done really is it? Something needs doing there are to many otters about these days there numbers need controling i think. End of.
 
Richard Hamlyn said:
Neil,

Thanks for saving me the task of writing a response. We all need to start thinking smarter (no pun intended) if we are ever going to move forward and adapt to change.
Click to expand...

Then what do you expect we do then? Just keep watching and see our rivers go down the pan wake up.
 
There is a very true saying that states that “Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat itâ€. Very often if you want to know the best course of action going forward then your first port of call is to look backwards in history to see which strategies have been effective and which have not.
History is the management of change, and change is constant. Everything is constantly evolving around us and yet the bulk of people want everything to stay the same. Worse still there are those who want to turn the pages back to an earlier time, even though in their heart of hearts they know such a thing is impossible. Already I can hear the thoughts of readers thinking “What has this got to do with ottersâ€, so for them please do not read further as you will not understand the content.

Angling, and more importantly anglers, need to change. We are no longer tweed clad landowners able to employ gamekeepers to shoot what they consider vermin. We no longer have packs of otter hounds, and we no longer set bear traps for poachers (EE’s of course) nor do we send our native poachers to the colonies for stealing a rabbit. Some ignorant folk still poison birds of prey and they are too stupid to realise that all they really poison is the attitudes of the bulk of people against them. There is something of the Luddite in all of us but history does not record this as being a successful strategy. When change occurs the best strategy is to “accommodate†not to “annihilateâ€. It is better to accept, and most importantly, manage change than to rail against it.

Society no longer tolerates many aspects of the relationship that it had with animals and nature a century ago, this is a fact so get used to it; and anglers are members of society whether they like it or not. Therefore it is imperative that we educate society as to what we are about so that they view us as a benign force for the good of nature and the countryside as a whole. However on open forums like this all we get is kill anything that eats fish, the EA are a bunch of idiots, send non-nationals home because they take fish for the pot, ban this, stop that, shoot seals and above all fight among ourselves. A few years ago they would have been reading about the spread of Zander being the death knell for angling in this country and that they should be immediately culled, based on nothing more that emotive outburst rather than evidence. The reality of their introduction has turned out to be rather different don’t you think?

Just stop for a minute and imagine you were a non-angler and you spent some time reading this forum, would you come away from it thinking that anglers were a nice bunch of people and that you might even like to try a bit of fishing as it sounds fun?

If people were educated as to the beauty and wonder of the fish that populate our waterways then they would be more inclined to be sympathetic to the fish and the environment that they live in. As long as they are blissfully unaware as to the realities of our situation then we will not be masters of our own destiny and will continue to act in a reactive, and usually hostile, manner to whatever society throws at us.
 
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