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Reasons for Barbel population decline

Interesting Lol
you are coming at it from the breeding angle re stocked fish/ possible heat treatment affects..

I'm coming to it from the feed angle and introduced hormones.

But basically I do feel we are getting real progress and closer on the inability of barbel to really sustain a natural balance.

Over and above the predation and environmental issues. I know the regular spawning grownds on the Kennet and Loddon have not "noticably" changed visually in the past 20 years. Watched them in both areas every year.

Just that the visible numbers have declined tremendously. Keep Digging pal.

Graham
 
Interesting thread chaps.

I was interested to read a comment about declines in many rivers being noted in the last 15 years - that got me thinking about Neonicotinoids.

Many of you may be aware of the furore regarding the use of Neonicotinoid seed dressings which have been linked to a range of harmful environmental impacts, notably honey-bee colony collapse disorder. Thanks to the EU most of these products were banned in 2013, although no thanks to our own Govt. who revealed itself to be in the unashamedly in the pockets of the agri-chemical industry and were extremely vociferous in their opposition to the ban.

Neonicotinoids (Neonics) are a class of neuro-active insecticides, which include acetamiprid, clothianidin, imidacloprid, nitenpyram, nithiazine, thiacloprid & thiamethoxam. Neonicotinoid are relatively new onto the scene, some first became commercially available in the late 90's, others in early 2000s. Since their introduction the products became very popular, and before the ban, neonics were applied to approximately 35% of the arable land in the UK, mainly oilseed rape and winter wheat.

Remarkably, given that neonics are water soluble and therefore readily leach into watercourses, no long-term systematic study has ever been carried out to determine their impact - and surprise surprise, scientists are now beginning to discover just how polluting neonics are.

Door, stable, horse, bolted.

What ever happened to the 'Precautionary Principle'?

Take this:

There is so much evidence, going far beyond bees," Prof Dave Goulson from the University of Sussex told BBC News.

"They accumulate in soils, they are commonly turning up in waterways at levels that exceed the lethal dose for things that live in streams.

"It is impossible to deny that these things are having major environmental impacts."
. BBC News - Widespread impacts of neonicotinoids 'impossible to deny'

And this:


"Peer-reviewed research, published in the leading journal Nature this Wednesday, has revealed data from the Netherlands showing that bird populations fell most sharply in those areas where neonicotinoid pollution was highest. Starlings, tree sparrows and swallows were among the most affected.

At least 95% of neonicotinoids applied to crops ends up in the wider environment, killing the insects the birds rely on for food, particularly when raising chicks.


The researchers, led by Hans de Kroon, an ecologist at Radboud University, in the Netherlands, examined other possible reasons for the bird declines seen during the study period of 2003 to 2010, including intensification of farming. But high pollution by a neonicotinoid known as imidacloprid was by far the largest factor.

“It is very surprising and very disturbing,” de Kroon said. Water pollution levels of just 20 nanograms of neonicotinoid per litre led to a 30% fall in bird numbers over 10 years, but some water had contamination levels 50 times higher. “That is why it is so disturbing – there is an incredible amount of imidacloprid in the water,” he said. “And it is not likely these effects will be restricted to birds.”"


Neonicotinoids linked to recent fall in farmland bird numbers | Environment | The Guardian

Food for thought imho. It would be interesting to compare the farming practices in and around those catchments which have experienced severe declines in the barbel population since neonics were introduced.
 
You can sex mature barbel by looking at the vent, near the anal fin; females have a fleshy protruding tubular vent, males have a single small hole flush with the skin, but the smaller the barbel the harder it is to see

Hi Pete, I was interested in your statement above, and wondered if you could see these differences in mature barbel at all times, or only during spawning periods? I have never noticed the difference you mention, but then to be honest, I have never actually looked for it :D. I only ask out of curiosity, it isn't exactly earth shatteringly important.

The thing is, during my long experience of tropical fish keeping and breeding, I noticed that invariably the ovipositor in female egg layers only extended at or around the spawning period. Many years ago I used to breed Discus (Symphysodon discus) and the debate which frequently raged between the UK breeders back then regarding the possibility of accurately sexing discus was at times hilarious. The most successful breeder at that time was a German guy, Dr. Eduard Schmidt-Foke ( no jokes please :p) and when he was asked if he thought it was possible to tell, he said (with a straight face) 'Oh yes....the ones that lay eggs are the females, the ones which squirt milt are the males'. That kind of summed it up for me :D

Now, I know Barbus Barbus are not Symphysodon Discus....but many egg layers are similar in that respect at least, so out of curiosity, I looked it up just now. I (or rather Google) found a learned paper on B. Barbus, and the short bit of text regarding sexing them read.....and I kid you not....

'During their reproductive season they were sexed based on external characteristics (mainly, release of milt or eggs)' :D:D

So, I just wondered if the differences you saw were shown to you during your time at Calverton (when you would have been observing actively spawning fish)...or during your angling at non spawning times?

Cheers, Dave.
 
I do think the fish farming pellet theory is coming together.

Lees knowledge has helped to short cut the process that now needs validating.

Fish Farm feeding levels are controlled, but our application of the product was haphazard and the outcome would have been that smaller rivers with a flow rate and potentially lower density of fish would have been more affected and show outcomes sooner.

And that seems to be the story.

Why not do some googling of the Synthetic steroid that Lee has indicated has been used in these products and may continue to be used in some the bait manufacturers retail.

I have and it makes frightening reading. Some views please.

Thanks Graham
 
Graham,
This is what I meant about going up against the Industries/Cartels that supply Animal feed and also chemicals for the production of Human food..

Like I said before they control far more than people can imagine..

They control Research, and more importantly what the research says..;)

Bigger groups than Anglers have and are trying to make information about what we eat more transparent..

Declining Barbel stocks is just the tip of the Iceberg..;)
 
Hi Craig.
Maybe we can do our little bit to make things a bit more transparent with some outcomes relating to our Barbus Barbus.

I am in the process of asking some questions of the Fish Farming Food suppliers.

I see no reason they should have a fear about using a clearly defined Fish Farm product that they themselves did not promote (as far as I am aware) as a general use uncontrolled product in riverine environments.

What I could do with is help with this work.

Contact with the person that Lee has advised re Calverton and Maybe a commitment from Fishing/Barbel Associations with a view that they will utilise their resources to investigate further and in depth.

I think it's been proven it is needed.

Graham
 
Joe.
I hope someone does ask the questions. I'm too old to follow up on most things.
we need a rabid youngster...

or a Barbel Group with enough interest and able to get genuine proven answers. Howver, I am saying the main culprit is us anglers for feeding the fish Fish Farming products. albeit unwittingly. The further worry is it may be continuing within the source of newly provided barbel stock .

Graham

Surely Graham, the Barbel Society is the group you wish and hope for, it has the structure it has a research and conservation arm, and this is a conservation issue, if whoever takes this on outside of the society will have to work with them, or the potential for any lobbying, analysis and collating of any information will be seriously hampered.......the BS has to been involved and must ensure as members that they act on our behalf, whether they agree of not, they are there for their members at the end of the day.
 
No magic answers from me, as I haven't fished enough rivers long enough to give an informed overview, but it seems the Loddon would make a great case study.

Some observations:

1. The most prolific fishery is a well-known club stretch on the upper reaches. I don't fish it myself, but it is relatively pressurised. It is also full of crayfish, but consistently produces fish in size and numbers. An EA fisheries officer told me the gravel runs were particularly good spawning areas. So it seems a steady stream of bait going in, plus good spawning ground, trumps the crayfish menace.

2. The same EA officer told me that the lower Loddon (downstream of Sindlesham Mill to confluence with the Thames) has only one spawning area, which the fish travel some miles to use. This is just one area in about 6-7 miles of river. That can't be good.

3. Obviously related to the above point, the Lower Loddon has a low stock of big lumps, although from the catches of myself and others, it seems a year class of 6-7lbers are coming through.

4. Upstream of Sindlesham Mill (a barrier through which the fish cannot pass), it seems the fishing gets progressively difficult as you head downstream from the upper reaches. With no obvious barriers, there is no apparent reason for this, but there is clearly a deterioration in barbel habitat for some reason. Above the surface, it still looks terrific or, as someone once described it, "a 20 mile long barbel swim".

So apologies for bringing only questions based on second-hand information, not answers. And while angling pressure over the years has produced some cute bait-averse fish, there is widespread agreement among the regulars that the overall population has markedly declined.
 
Good points Steve......and lets hope those 6 and 7 pounders coming through are males or at least have the proportion of male fish that will enhance future spawning with the gravid females.
 
Steve. I would only add that there are a large number of spawning areas downstream from Sindlesham Mill.

I in fact showed the previous Loddon Consultative EA representative some and also assisted in helping a film maker record spawning fish on another.

Maybe I will take you nearer the time.

I would roughly estimate a normal standard fully fit river would produce around 10-15 fish under double size for it each double caught.

Graham.
 
A third of male fish in British rivers are in the process of changing sex due to pollution in human sewage, research by the Environment Agency suggests.
A survey of 1,500 fish at 50 river sites found more than a third of males displayed female characteristics.

Hormones in the sewage, including those produced by the female contraceptive pill, are thought to be the main cause.

The agency says the problem could damage fish populations by reducing their ability to reproduce.

It said its study highlighted the need for water companies to develop new treatments.

There has been concern for some time that chemicals, known as endocrine disruptors, are causing fish to change sex.

The latest study is the first to show the scale of the problem in Britain.

This is the latest report from the EA..
 
If you think about it, the Barbel and Otter have something in common..

The Otter was all but wiped out because of chemicals in the water that stopped them reproducing..

Sound familiar?..:rolleyes:
 
craig, they,ve been trying to link hormones with barbel deformaties ever since the 70/80s mate, obviously its not worth the time and cash to plough into a deep study by the water treatment companies ect as i would think the costs would be high.
Lee:), good to see you on here again, we,ve had differences in the past but when your real serious heads on your a mine of info mate:)
keep outta them wheely bins and dresses :D
 
Craig. Fascinating. But not often declared. I have often thought that was a critical aspect as raised many times my concerns and highlighted it as the main issue until I considered the feed elements.


Where is the info pls. Link?

Graham
 
Hi Graham,
That was taken from the BBC News website..

You might want to read about the research that was carried out in America regarding the Flat Head bull Minnow, think that's what it was called..

Basically the flat head Minnow males changed sex after being exposed to animal Feed from a near by Salmon Farm..
It only affected those that were directly down stream of the Feeding Pens..

Obviously in America Pellets/Animal Feed are not as widely used like they are on our river systems..

I think the problem is that there MANY problems contributing to the Barbels demise in some Rivers, and I seriously doubt we will ever find out the truth..

Money comes before Human life and the Enviroment, make no mistake..

Like I have said before, were going up against Billion pound Cartels who control everything from the food on our plates to the water we drink..

Profit comes before anything, especially the environment..

The EA cant do a thing because they serve the very organisations that make money out of the destruction of the environment..

Its happening worldwide..
 
Good post Craig,think that is nearer the mark than the feed issue plus of course habitat and predation,just my thoughts though I'm no scientist/biologist
 
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