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Predation Action Group

Guys,

I was chatting with Ruth Lockwood in Yateley Angling last Thursday and fully understand where this is coming from.............They realise we will never achieve wholesale culling of otters but control is required.

As an example, this group has been pushing to get some numbers in way of an admittance from the otter crowd as to what is still being released. The only current control is of captive bred otters, the biggest issue is where pups, which would not survive as most of the otter populated areas are ovecrowded now (by that I mean that a pup cannot set up territory within the area controlled by the dog which fathered it, otters are extremely territorial and will normally control an area of around 4 square miles, with one breeding pair, another male would be challenged to the death) are being collected and raised by groups which then release them back into the wild in other areas.

The admittance so far is that in the last year, 150 captive "reared" pups have been re-introduced in the south east alone.

Natural England and the EA are taking this very seriously, many of the released otters are being killed by resident otters as they are still being released into over crowded areas. There is a recognition that the environment will not support new introductions and survival rates will be very low as they will control their own numbers as fish stocks diminish too.

The current thoughts of the EA and NE together with the RSPCA is to euthenise pups which are abandoned or will not survive for whatever reasons.
 
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I for one, fully support what these guys are doing. Looking at the primary role of the group, i.e. being able to provide proof and evidence on what the key causes of decline on our fish stock are, surely that can't be a bad thing?!

This is something that no one on here would be able to justify, at least that would stand up as solid evidence, which is what we need to push forward. If the robust and supported evidence is there as a result of this initiative, at least we are a step closer to forming a better future for our lakes and rivers.

I cant see how anyone who truly cares for their lakes and rivers could be against such an initiative?! The mind boggles...

If it doesn't work then at least we tried, and at the very least we will really understand what the effects are. Even it stops the consistent, often non justified attitudes of anglers coming to their own conclusions then that would be a good thing!
 
Absulutely correct ian..i stated this fact some time ago and got shot down by certain people on here for not knowing the facts which unknown to them i did have the facts as i have actually spoken to someone who has released otters outside of EA and NE guidelines..As ive also mentioned before the hand reared otters which have been reintroduced are showing different habitual trends compared to natural resident otters by which i mean they will live more close together than natural ones..Theres also the point regarding hand reared otters being reintroduced where there were already resident otters present..Good luck to this group and i hope they will find the evidence needed to make the EA and NE realise what a big mistake they have made..
 
I really applaud and appreciate this group. Good on you and thank you.

To Paul Boote. I find your comments unhelpful and your seen it all before superior stance on everything boring and grating. Why not use your undoubted experience to help this group strike the right balance to achieve success?
 
Anglers may not be able to completely change public opinion by raising the issue of predation by otters, but putting up with it without making any noise is just stupid! The EA are slowly waking up to the situation and are finally taking some action to preserve affected river fisheries, particularly where the anglers are making some noise about the situation. Slagging off those who try to make a difference is totally pathetic, in my opinion.
 
Hi men ,

Will be interesting to see what information they gather , even if nothing can be impilmented with it .

Hatter
 
Dave Burr wrote;
"They are two separate problems among many other problems that are effecting our rivers. To decide to address just one of them at a time is completely wrong in my opinion and achieves nothing."

Is this not what the PAG setting about doing, addressing one problem and only one problem, PREDATION.


"Abstraction may have a major effect on our rivers during a dry summer but that hasn't been the case over the last two years has it. No, but the floods introduced goodness knows what into the waterways - another problem that needs addressing."

Well Dave where you live it may have seen reasonable summer time rain but in the south and south east of England we never had much rainfall, only need look back at last summers river reports for proof.
Oh and maybe completely coincidental but the areas receiving the least rainfall also have the highest levels of abstraction and the highest levels of discharge put back in, maybe there's a connection??


"If we get all of those maters sorted it may still be too late if the cormorants and otters have eaten everything. "

And equally so eradicate the predators there will still be only a few old and worn out fish that will still be incapable of successfully reproducing


"As you can see, we need to take the whole river and deal with it en mass."

Hardly what PAG is proposing to do, or not?


Paul Hiom, your little condescending rant at anglers that have voiced, IMO, a more realistic view of the problems, is that a personal opinion or are you speaking on behalf of BFW?


John Hepworth, rather two faced approach towards canvassing interest to getting people to join up, do you not think?
And when the Chub Study Group come down to fish the Thames, Cherwell and Windrush later this year (I think) be sure to give me a call and I'll happily (maybe not the best word) show you the 'real' issues that are destroying those river in this area.
And no I'm not saying predation isn't having a effect, just that IMO its no where near the top of the must act upon list.


Simon King, excellent well balanced posts, shame many can't remove their tunnel vision goggles and open their minds, to see everything thats infont of them, especially as many sit for endless hours looking at the problems!!
 
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Well Dave where you live it may have seen reasonable summer time rain but in the south and south east of England we never had much rainfall, only need look back at last summers river reports for proof.
Oh and maybe completely coincidental but the areas receiving the least rainfall also have the highest levels of abstraction and the highest levels of discharge put back in, maybe there's a connection??


oh there's a obvious connection, population expansion, more people, more house's,More waste,
more water needed, it goto come from somewhere,
the solution is to build more reservoirs in the south.
the cormorant problem has been a problem for 20 years now, it's a clear failing that thousands, not just a handful should of been culled.
signal crayfish, what can you do, they breed like anything, all you can really do is the extension of trap and destroy, a nice big BBQ.
as for otters, well, lets start with the two above first i say.
 
Simon, Colin,

Patronising and condescending! Not my intention and no i am not in the habit of banning people if i dont agree with their sentiments. My comments are my own unless stated otherwise.

How about frustration at the negativity that always seems to ensue any initiative that tries to understand and do something about a problem that keeps re-occuring year after a year with one more new predator on top of another.

To simplify, Chris Turnbull sums it up.

Paul
 
Hi men ,

Bit late for the stretch of the Ouse near me , which in March " lost " another pukka barbel , now those big perch are next I hear.

Hatter
 
Chris Turnbull said:
Anglers may not be able to completely change public opinion by raising the issue of predation by otters, but putting up with it without making any noise is just stupid! The EA are slowly waking up to the situation and are finally taking some action to preserve affected river fisheries, particularly where the anglers are making some noise about the situation. Slagging off those who try to make a difference is totally pathetic, in my opinion.
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Well said Chris, you're dead right.

Ian.
 
Chris Turnbull said:
Anglers may not be able to completely change public opinion by raising the issue of predation by otters, but putting up with it without making any noise is just stupid! The EA are slowly waking up to the situation and are finally taking some action to preserve affected river fisheries, particularly where the anglers are making some noise about the situation. Slagging off those who try to make a difference is totally pathetic, in my opinion.
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What "action" is being, or likely to be proposed on the rivers, Chris?
 
Paul Hiom said:
Simon, Colin,

Patronising and condescending! Not my intention and no i am not in the habit of banning people if i dont agree with their sentiments. My comments are my own unless stated otherwise.

How about frustration at the negativity that always seems to ensue any initiative that tries to understand and do something about a problem that keeps re-occuring year after a year with one more new predator on top of another.

To simplify, Chris Turnbull sums it up.

Paul
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Paul, I accept your lack of intent, but look at it this way; every subject that ever gets debated needs to be criticised, preferably constructively. With criticism (and counter-criticism), the subject can keep its strengths and lose its weaknesses. Which should only make it stronger.

Unless of course, it initially had no merit, in which case a quick death is preferable.

Although the official "Devil's Advocate" Office of Rome is now defunct, it's spirirt and lesson lives on to play a useful role, I think. :)
 
Simon King said:
What "action" is being, or likely to be proposed on the rivers, Chris?
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On a national level, I'm not sure what the state of play is at the moment as I've almost entirely abandoned any involvement in angling politics due to being sick to death with the endless negativity and back-stabbing of those who do nothing and criticize everything.

Here on the Wensum, however, we have won the support of the EA to restock barbel on a annual basis to offset the effects of otter predation on the fisheries. Seeing as 2 years ago, the EA would not sanction any further stocking of barbel this represents a major turnaround on their behalf. And the only reason it is happening is that we were prepared to stand up and fight them over the issue. It is worth remembering here, that the Wensum is a SSSI and SAC site, so if we can win over the EA and Natural England here, then the same can happen anywhere.... providing we are not prepared to accept the destruction of our fisheries without a fight.
 
QUOTE=Simon King;16399]

[Far better to look to improve the fish stocks themselves by injecting waterways with captive-produced recruits and improving spawning success towards a more sustainable balance, than embarking down a road of Predator Control

This may be true Simon, but some form of predator control will also be necessary in these circumstances. Otherwise the improving fish stocks will be little more than an increased supply of food for predators that will subsequently increase in numbers as a result of the situation. It's often quoted on here that predator numbers will naturally decline as food sources decline so it would seem obvious that the reverse is true and they will increase in numbers as the food availability increases.
It may happen that eventually a natural balance will occur but it may not, particularly if improved situations provoke more otter releases, then we are back to square one. The rivers habitat problems need addressing but predator control may need to be implemented in order to sustain the improvement.
 
Alex Gowney said:
QUOTE=Simon King;16399]

[Far better to look to improve the fish stocks themselves by injecting waterways with captive-produced recruits and improving spawning success towards a more sustainable balance, than embarking down a road of Predator Control

This may be true Simon, but some form of predator control will also be necessary in these circumstances. Otherwise the improving fish stocks will be little more than an increased supply of food for predators that will subsequently increase in numbers as a result of the situation. It's often quoted on here that predator numbers will naturally decline as food sources decline so it would seem obvious that the reverse is true and they will increase in numbers as the food availability increases.
It may happen that eventually a natural balance will occur but it may not, particularly if improved situations provoke more otter releases, then we are back to square one. The rivers habitat problems need addressing but predator control may need to be implemented in order to sustain the improvement.
Click to expand...

My belief is that if you start to artificially reduce the numbers, then (with more "space" available and effectively the same amount of "prey" available) more young will survive and expand just as quickly into the areas "vacated" by those that have been taken out.
I don't believe it will have any nett effect whatsoever. It would have to be done on such a large scale as would never be sanctioned by those in authority. You'd be talking about a Major Cull.

Given the above, prey declines followed by predator decline, there is always a time lag between the two. Neither population is static, both are dynamic, always in a state of flux, but the predator numbers are always self-limiting.
It's not just the otters and cormorants, there are other predators (not seen as a "pest") as part of the equation. As long as numbers of "prey" species can be kept increasing at a greater level than are taken by all predators, then these two particular predators will increase more slowly. This should mean that their "natural" balance should be reached more quickly than the eventual prey fish numbers.

In short, if what is happenning on Chris' Wensum is also extended to more species than just the barbel (e.g. annual restocking), the barbel itself stands more chance of regaining a foothold by dint of presenting itself as a smaller overall percentage of the available prey.

If, combined with this artificial increase in numbers, local spawning and subsequent recruitment can be enhanced, the increase in "prey" will far outstrip the competing predators ability to overwhelm any particular species.

The cyclical nature of predator/prey relationships is always "on the move" whether up or down, but I'm sure the otter and cormorant (and the eventual, sustainable numbers of each in any given area) would find their "balance" as part of the overall chain.
Hence why I believe that the other factors relating to abstraction, chemical analysis, micro-environment (flora and micro-fauna) etc are equally, if not more important in allowing these new fish introductions to gain a foothold.

Something worth bearing in mind is that the more stillwater fisheries erecting otter-proof fences and anti-cormorant wires (assuming they work), the more these two will be forced on to the unprotected rivers for sustenance.
Now is definitely the time to get things moving and get a head-start.
 
Another great post Simon.:)

Alex I see you are shooting man, so instead of fretting over the two otters on the Cherwell or three present along the Windrush, perhaps even the four to five on the Warks Avon.
Why don't you just get your gun, seek the land owners permission and go eradicate or at least implement some mink population control?:eek:
(just an idea):rolleyes:

If in doubt as to the location of the verminous creatures, just ask I can point you in the direction of two groups on the Cherwell.;)
 
Last Sunday I watched Chub mopping up large amounts of Barbel eggs following their spawning. Every year this predatory animal destroys huge numbers of potential record fish and we do nothing!
Will this group take up the issue of Chub predation?:cool:
 
Not in particular fretting over just otters Colin, they are predators that are damaging local rivers along with a host of other problems as you and Simon quite rightly highlight. The point I was trying to make was a predator /prey balance may not come about naturally if it is combined with more otter releases as a result of restocking and improving habitat. I don't consider it likely anyone will try to introduce more cormorants, crayfish or mink by artificial means. I feel the crayfish are the biggest disaster to happen to our rivers and must admit this problem seems to be avoiding the urgent attention it needs maybe because a lot of focus has shifted to otters.
Interesting comment on the mink, a pm with more details would be good Colin, thanks.
 
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