otters

[Stephen Whyte]

Spoke to an RSPB chap at, i think was Harrogate Flower/agricultural fair thing, and asked him what kind of damage cats did to birds etc. Their estimation was approximately 300 million prey items per year, birds, mice etc, which i guess is a conservative estimate for obvious reasons. A brother of mine has two cats, and anytime i have a few days back up in Scotland and stay at his house i'm greeted at the back door with dead birds, voles, mice, when i go out the door for a brew and a fag, and frequently greeted with only the feet and stomach of some small bird or other. Now, their argument is, thats what Cats do, which is about the only arguament that i, personally, have heard. I can't imagine any of the larger Cats, Lion, leopard etc chasing an antelope after it had just eaten one 20 minutes earlier but domestic cats will sneak up on a bird or whatever. Magpies, i have seen them work in groups distracting parent birds while the others grab the eggs or young chicks. Also seen them attack a fledgling Starling in the garden and by the time i got there it was dead, eyes gone and pecked to death. Had two pairs of Starlings that nested in two opposite corners of my house, but they have not been back for the last three or four seasons now. Don't know if its down to cats or magpies but it does make me feel a bit sad.

Stephen

P.S. I think the cuddly otter would probably tear your face off given a chance

 

[Jim Foxall]

appreciate that my response is not related to otters, but I'm afraid that Neil is bang on. Cats are incredibly efficient killing machines and they have no role in domestic gardens in terms of their killing sprees. Research has shown that this is the case with millions of birds, frogs etc killed each year. Couch cats fine, but those animals turfed out decimating wildlife is unacceptable. Dogs fouling the street has been pretty well knocked on the head, as has smoking in public places and it's now the time for the cat population to be put under the spotlight and controlled. I just don't understand how cat owners can be thrilled when their beloved cat drops a thrush, probably half alive, on their doorstep - personally it would sicken me. Cats do have a role, on farms, controlling mice and rats, but not in gardens.


what a load of tosh,no cats in my garden,never seen any either,but during
the nesting season, regular sights are grey long tailed tree rats running off
with young birds in thier mouths,also often see loads of magpies,after young
birds and eggs,and see loads of empty eggshells on my lawn after the magpies have had them.
Heaps of feathers by my birdtable show the signs of the local sparrowhawks
visits so maybe we should cull those, and perhaps the RSPB should stop blaming cats,and blame themselves for increasing the amount of Raptors
now in the uk.

I love Red kites,and 10 years ago had never seen one in bedfordshire,but now
a very common sight,see them most days,but drive to Oxfordshire to a village called watlington and youll perhaps see 40 or 50 each time you visit the place,
more overkill by meddling humans and the RSPB.
But rather than blaming thier own cock ups ....they blame cats.

Afraid if its a toss up between Otters and Cats to cull,thats when the Otter would lose with 7 million uk cat lovers

Sorry, Howard, but if you think that my post is "tosh" then you have your head very firmly in the sand. Maybe you are lucky that you live in a relatively cat free area. Your observations on the grey squirrels are spot on. At one point these "cute" grey nutkins were welcomed into our gardens. The tide has firmly changed with culls which have public support. Magpies, I don't have enough knowledge to comment on how big a nuisance they are. I don't think that they are protected as are any of the crow family and so can be reduced where a nuisance. Ironically, I did see a sparrowhawk kill what I think was a blackbird - one half of me said do something, I might have saved it, the other half said, the blackbird is probably already dead and the sparrowhawk will just find another victim. At least raptors kill to live. In my experience of domestic cats, that is not the case. A couple of days ago there was a study published in the Daily Telegraph that what we are seeeing in terms of cat decimation is the tip of the iceberg. I believe that Reading University will be carrying out a similar study. I don't buy that cats have a great impact on mice and rats around housing. I have yet to see a cat with a rat, a grey squirrel or a magpie in its mouth. Voles, shrews, songbirds and even frogs, yes, the easy meat.

 

[David Hall]

cats kill for fun,i had next doors young female cat who had caught a vole, it was funny really, the vole played dead and the cat sat there for about 10 minutes looking at it, poking it with it's foot to make it move, it did after about the 10th time and the cat got it as it ran for cover, rather cruel.

 

[Howard Cooke]

At the end of the day aren't animals just trying to adapt, to evolve, and do so in order to survive? Many don't make it of course and that is sad. Many more do and adapt incredibly well-better than we might of imagined. We are part of nature and what ever new world order exists is also nature- whether we like it or not. Our part is far more impactful because of our (generally speaking) greater intellect which means we have the power to influence which we do exercise- sometimes wisely and sometimes perhaps not, depending on your perspective. Cats are no different and I can't really believe that cats kill for a bit of a laugh or to show off to their mates. They are probably caught in evolutionary transition as they cope with domestication- although they are taking their time about it. They retain the instinct to kill and perhaps to teach offspring how to kill, but not quite sure what to do afterwards. They are full on whiskers so don't really feel the need to top up on mushed up bloody bits and bobs. Don't blame them. When I get home to find that my cat is pan frying sea bass then I know that the evolutionary process is finally complete. As for otters, I haven't seen one yet but when I do, I will punch it in the face.

 

[David Hall]

As for otters, I haven't seen one yet but when I do, I will punch it in the face.

i like to see that...

 

[Howard Cooke]

I could have your average otter any day. They're tiny. The confusing bit would come when you ask them to step outside.

 

[David Parker]

Dear David,

The UK angling financial information came originally from the UK Sports Council who commissioned the research and other sources that commissioned other studies such as recreational sea angling, game fishing, angling in Scotland etc.

The forerunner to the present AT (Angling Trust) the NAA (National Anglers Alliance) latched onto this information and made a big deal about it. The only problem being the big deal was only preached at the angling minority who were in the "inner circle" of the NAA at the time. The majority of angling did not, and still do not, have a clue about how much UK angling is worth. And that is perfectly highlighted by you asking the question where did the information come from? Because if the angling politicos had done their job properly in the first place anglers would be better informed. Yes we have the well informed elite who meet in their ivory towers

As for sleeping dogs? Everyone steps over these to the point one hardly notices they are there and I guess thats your point? But UK Angling is not a sleeping dog moreover a sleeping giant seeing as angling is the UK's top participant sport with 9% of our population being involved in recreational angling. The general public regard angling as a harmless pursuit perhaps even bordering on the eccentric.

Having said that, why is it that millions tune in for fishing programmes on the telly? Passion for Angling is still selling copies of the series 17 years after it was first shown. The truth is, the general public like programmes about angling just as much as they like programmes about wildlife. We should be harnessing that, working with it to promote our sport so that the general public understand us and perhaps our numbers would swell because of this understanding? Sleeping dogs or ostriches in sand its the same thing and will get us no where in the long run. Angling has missed countless golden opportunities to promote itself with effective PR.

As for the future? Angling will remain the same within its bastions that is the clubs and associations. Those up in the ivory towers will bumble from one issue to another in its reactionary format and the overall majority of grass roots anglers won't have a clue what it is they are doing.

Regards,

Lee.

Interesting that this info isn't shared more widely, Lee. They are big numbers, although without seeing a breakdown (is there one available?) it is hard to now what sort of detailed profile the sport has - i.e. how many serious anglers, as opposed to twice a year while on holiday with the kids etc. If all are part of the 9% it isn't quite what I'd call a fair reflection of numbers of committed anglers, but perhaps that 9% is 'proper' anglers only?

I agree with you that there is a lot of cross-over appeal in angling; but therein lies the rub. Because while the 'nature documentary' watcher might tune into A Passion for Angling 'for the wildlife', it masks the business of actually catching fish (in the way, say, 'Thinking Tackle' brings it to the fore). So while we blur the business end, not going into detail about hooks, rigs and fish-care while out of the water, and have classical music soundtracks and Cribbins as a narrator, I guess we can appear populist. But scratch the surface, go a bit deeper, get the public to look beyond the close-ups of kingfishers and grebes, and I think at best we bore the average person to death or at worst make them start questioning the ethics of what we do. Hence my 'sleeping dogs' idea. For the "average" viewer, APFA was a nature documentary, not a fishing programme.

I may well be wide of the mark, but I think we have to be careful not to over-estimate the amount of support, understanding and goodwill that might come our way if we ever really had to fight our quarter. It wouldn't take too much of an anti-angling campaign running alongside an anti-otter campaign from our side, for example, to stack the odds against us in my view.

Is there a sport or pastime that you can think of that is in a similar bracket to fishing in terms of questions of ethics etc (where we catch and release rather than hunt for the pot) that has somehow broken through with PR campaigns, so that it now seems to be not just tolerated but celebrated?

I'm not pessimistic by nature, or one to avoid issues where they can be tackled. But I have always thought, in our modern world, that the campaign 'for' angling will be a more effective way of expediting its demise than simply inching along below the radar.

 

[Robert Richbell]

ok who started about cats . now i'm off on one. the only good cat is etc etc. When i moved in to my current house, the people opposite had 14 of the bloody things, house to the left 2 and the house 2 doors up 7 . I came to develop a vary strong dislike for cats at that time. In addition to the carnage amongst the local wildlife, hardly saw a bird in the garden back then, the yowling and fighting and who knows what else keeping me awake at night unless i had all the windows closed and ear plugs. Then there was the defecating in the front and back gardens, it was like a sewer. Like many things they are ok in small doses. A large german shepherd, a water pistol, lots of pepper and an electronic cat scarer later i eventually reclaimed my garden
Now there's only a few visit my garden and cleaning up after them is only once or twice a week, still irritating but i can live with it.
In spite of the rant i would not willingly or knowingly hurt 1 although i can be heard to mutter dark threats at times.

 

[Howard Cooke]

ok who started about cats . now i'm off on one. the only good cat is etc etc. When i moved in to my current house, the people opposite had 14 of the bloody things, house to the left 2 and the house 2 doors up 7 . I came to develop a vary strong dislike for cats at that time. In addition to the carnage amongst the local wildlife, hardly saw a bird in the garden back then, the yowling and fighting and who knows what else keeping me awake at night unless i had all the windows closed and ear plugs. Then there was the defecating in the front and back gardens, it was like a sewer. Like many things they are ok in small doses. A large german shepherd, a water pistol, lots of pepper and an electronic cat scarer later i eventually reclaimed my garden
Now there's only a few visit my garden and cleaning up after them is only once or twice a week, still irritating but i can live with it.
In spite of the rant i would not willingly or knowingly hurt 1 although i can be heard to mutter dark threats at times.

I rest my case. Here we see evidence of cats adapting to the human environment they now occupy and to survive, they need to act more like humans- especially tough northern girls out on the lash. The way you dealt with the cats is no different to the way that the police end up dealing with said girls.

 

[Robert Richbell]

I rest my case. Here we see evidence of cats adapting to the human environment they now occupy and to survive, they need to act more like humans- especially tough northern girls out on the lash. The way you dealt with the cats is no different to the way that the police end up dealing with said girls.

can you get an electronic "tough northern girl out on the lash" scarer ??

 

[Howard Cooke]

can you get an electronic "tough northern girl out on the lash" scarer ??

Yes of course. Where would you like me to send it?

 

[Adrian Williams]

Tough northern birds and cats; great analogy.

I once tried spreading vindaloo paste along the tops of my fence to deter the cats, it worked for a while but I had to stop when a Barnsley lass woke me up at 2am pounding on the door screaming for a can of Stella and proclaiming to the world that she needed a f'ing good shag...............

 

[Phil Maggs]

Tough northern birds and cats; great analogy.

I once tried spreading vindaloo paste along the tops of my fence to deter the cats, it worked for a while but I had to stop when a Barnsley lass woke me up at 2am pounding on the door screaming for a can of Stella and proclaiming to the world that she needed a f'ing good shag...............

absolutely brilliant.. just getting over choking on my cup of tea

 

[Howard Cooke]

Tough northern birds and cats; great analogy.

I once tried spreading vindaloo paste along the tops of my fence to deter the cats, it worked for a while but I had to stop when a Barnsley lass woke me up at 2am pounding on the door screaming for a can of Stella and proclaiming to the world that she needed a f'ing good shag...............

I trust you delievered Adrian. And in doing so she may have overlooked the fact that you were out of Stella.

 

[Graham Elliott]

Is this thread about hot hers?

 

[Jim Foxall]

Quite right Graham. We've drifted off the topic once again. Now can we please get back on to the subject matter, the impact that cats have on the wildlife in our gardens.

 

[Neil Smart]

Quite right Graham. We've drifted off the topic once again. Now can we please get back on to the subject matter, the impact that cats have on the wildlife in our gardens.

Now that really did make me laugh....it was the Hon Member for Cheltenham that first raised the issue, he in fact was seemingly in support of the felines, I was not and put my forward my case.
It seems that cats are to blame for just about everything, even 'spinning' the BBC news in reporting that the reduction in songbirds this year was solely down to a cool wet spring, cunning litlle devils

 

[Howard Hutchins]

OK Jim

Let's start controlling crows and magpies and see if songbird populations increase
Blame for the reduction in song birds is laid squarely on farmers and farming methods, particularly the use of chemicals. The RSPB says it is sprays and fertiliser that causes the trouble, and the problem will get worse now that set-aside has been cut. Yet set-aside and organic farming are both recent farming developments, and each has contributed thousands of acres to being free of chemicals. Farm chemicals themselves have become far more benign over the past 20 years or more and are also used in smaller quantities. Practical Farm IDEAS calls regular culling of corvids (magpies, rooks and crows) by farmers. There's nothing to stop farmers, or those with their permission, shooting them - and traps such as Larsen are also legal, but need to be checked daily. See here

Ending compulsory set-aside will have a negative effect on wild-life as the area of uncultivated land is decreased, and the voluntary NFU and CLA plan to reduce the effects is a welcome way to reduce the impact. They look at three central themes, farmland birds, resource protection and botanical diversity and say that a voluntary scheme would be far more creative and effective than the regulatory approach suggested by Defra, which looks for a new cross compliance requirement for arable farmers to leave a percentage of their land out of production.
The 'stakeholders' at the meeting* further radical thinking regarding the protection of vulnerable song birds, with the introduction of some plan to control predators. It's amazing that numbers of these species have been in decline during a time when their habitat, through set-aside, has been greater than for many decades. Ag chemical use has also been been in decline, with the move towards organic farming.

Ask any countryman, as opposed to the highly qualified and desk-bound ecologist, what causes the decline in song birds, sparrows and so on, and you'll generally get the answer "other birds and predators", which include the burgeoning population of magpies and crows. Farmers would be only to happy to involve themselves in a partial cull of these destroyers of hedgerow nests and chicks.

 

[Jon Frisby]

Cats, what purpose do they serve in the urban environment?? Apart from the people who keep them inside permanently. Those who do let them out the majority have cat flaps etc so they can come and go as they please. My neighbour bought a little black cat 2 years ago for his daughter, I saw it many times hunting fledgeling blackbirds in my garden that nest most years, I once saw it with a collared dove in its mouth, once taking a goldfinch off my bird feeder, the last time my missus saw it, it was chasing a chicken across the road and not looking in the right direction when it went under the number 66 bus.

So sad

 

[Neil Smart]

And fleas....only fleas that are spread are feline.