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otters

Hi Lee,hope all is well with you.

Lee quote:

They say, that some members of the ethnic minorities have plundered our fish stocks to a point there are very few large pike left in the fenland drainage systems for example. Apparently, a lot of these wild fish have been taken not with rod and line but with the use of illegal "set lines". Even nets have been used with the fish caught this way destined for fish mongers slabs who sell a lot of their wares to the ethnic minorities that live in their areas. Apparently, its a similar story right across the country.

Perhaps we could let all the ethnic minorities ,know just how tasty a
barbecued otter is,especially with a side plate of baked cormerant.:D:D
 
Something a friend pointed out the other day, anglers have shared the rivers with a number of predators for many years, Herons, Grebes, more recently Egrets and of course otters. We have until fairly recently had no problems with any of them (we were not so good about pike when i was young) The fact that otters are now such a thorny passionate topic says a lot about what we have seen change over the years or maybe we have changed over the years. I used to be thrilled if i glimpsed an otter, now i am not so sure, my reaction is a mix of
wow and oh no not another one.
On cormorants maybe the RSPB will remember recent culls they have carried out of wildfowl (ruddy duck?) to protect other birds...why not to protect fish ??
Finally it might be bad for use, it's worse for some _http://blogs.canoe.ca/outdoorsguy/fishing/cormorant-coming-soon-to-a-waterway-near-you/
 
The EEs are a problem. They have taken over a community pool close to where I live. There is no doubt they are poaching and it is made abundantly clear that foreigners, to them, such as myself are not wanted. There is an easy solution, join some quite expensive angling clubs, buy your way out of mixing with these people. Sure, there will be some poaching on these protected club waters but nothing like there would be on municipal waters. What happens when the municipal/community waters have been cleared? Good question. The poaching EEs must know the answer to that very simple question.

As for getting our point across? Well the truth is, as a bunch, we are not educated enough and do not have the right connections to be effective. If for example, anglers were surgeons, accountants etc; politicians would take note of our views and it is just possible something might get done. As it is, fishing is seen as a pastime for blue collar workers who enjoy a pint and a fag. It's a question of respect and we don't have it. If it were some laird and his well connected, well heeled cronies on a Scottish salmon beat, the right people would listen and in all likelihood act.

I was looking at the Cormorant Watch website last night and we, as anglers, were being encouraged to write to our MPs to act. If an MP were to receive a badly constructed letter, riddled with spelling mistakes and grammar which beggar's belief then it gives completely the wrong impression and no matter how valuable the content may be, it is lost.

Sorry, this is a pretty brutal assessment of how I see it. If we are to succeed with the problems that we face as an angling community, then we must sharpen up our act.
 
Martin Bowler posted tonight on facebook that he had 2 otters crash into his swim in broad daylight and attack a swan. Apparently the poor swan had a massive chunk taken out of it's neck by a rather large dog otter.
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Apparently,

UK Angling contributes around 9 billion pounds to the economy?. In 2008 annual spend by British anglers was estimated at being between £7.0 and £7.5 billion per annum.

Now lets imagine how much the taxable percentages of this amount is worth to the UK treasury? Hardly peanuts is it.

UK recreational angling relies on just one commodity to make it viable and that is healthy fish stocks. So whether you are a sea, game or coarse angler you ultimately rely on healthy fish stocks for your sport.

They say, that some members of the ethnic minorities have plundered our fish stocks to a point there are very few large pike left in the fenland drainage systems for example. Apparently, a lot of these wild fish have been taken not with rod and line but with the use of illegal "set lines". Even nets have been used with the fish caught this way destined for fish mongers slabs who sell a lot of their wares to the ethnic minorities that live in their areas. Apparently, its a similar story right across the country.

Apparently, very little has been done to stop this illegal practise.

Captive bred otters were released into the wild to fanfares and trumpets from the Otter BAP's, their supporters and the UK public generally. Make no mistake about it, otters receive MASSIVE support from the general public. In any head to head contest between anglers and otters when the general public would become referees we would get very few points on the public's score card.

Does the general public actually know what a cormorant is? Or are they even aware there is an issue between angling and cormorants? I doubt it. Cormorants are not high up on the pretty bird list but even so that could all change if the Spring Watch team decided to film them along with the blue tits and barn owls. Public perception can change very rapidly when sat in front of the telly.

Apparently, the general public absolutely love watery places and will drive miles and miles to walk along the edge of water with their children and dogs. Indeed, its become a national pastime. Dig a hole, fill it with water and sure as eggs are eggs, the world and his wife will turn up to walk around it.

So given that we anglers have been frequenting watery places since man first learned how to catch a fish thousands of years ago, why is it we have not learnt to form an alliance with the general public seeing as we both adore our watery environments collectively?

Apparently its all about angling having this thing called "effective PR" and the fact that we actually don't have any.

The watery walking appreciation society just don't have a clue about issues that affect our sport simply because there is no one who tells them.

Given its 2012 and given UK angling number in their millions why are we still so absolutely rubbish at promoting our sport and the issues that affect it?

Apparently UK angling is worth around 9 billion pounds. That's 9 billion and rising year in, year out.
Click to expand...

Lots of interesting points Lee.

A couple of observations/questions.

1] how is the £9bn calculated, and what is the source for this figure? I don't disbelieve it, I'd just be interested to know how it is arrived at.

2] the fact that there isn't a broader alliance with the (in general) water-loving public is itself telling - if it were possible or likely, one might have thought it would have happened by now. My guess (sorry to be pessimistic on this) is that we are just not understood as a group, and our pastime just causes bemusement. If I had a pound for every time a non-fishing passer by asked incredulously "What do you mean you throw them back?!!!" I could probably offer £9bn from my own pocket. It makes me wonder whether it would do us any good at all, trying to win the support of non-angling folk. Bemused tolerance or indifference may be as good as it gets. If people start to really get into the ethics of it all I don't see it working out too well for us. 'Let sleeping dogs lie' has always been my thinking on this subject.

I'd love to be proven wrong though. Nothing would give me greater pleasure.
 
Who was it that said '' The genie is out the bottle '' Or should I say the Tarka the Otter is out of the bottle .

Do people really believe that we can now pop him in back in to bottle ?
Who gets to play God and decides who lives and who gets culled ?
So assuming we get the go ahead to cull Otters .
Who's next in the queue ?

Brock the Badger maybe , After all the farmers say they spread TB in cattle .
Then there are the shooters who complain about birds of prey taking Young Pheasants .

Was it Bill Oddie a few years ago . Was complaining about pussy cats killing fledging birds ? Perhaps we should add them to the list ?

So assuming we get the go ahead , Will all these other groups jump on the band wagon and say , If Anglers can get permission to Cull Otters they why cant we cull Birds of Prey , Badgers , Etc
 
Joe Fletcher said:
Who was it that said '' The genie is out the bottle '' Or should I say the Tarka the Otter is out of the bottle .

Do people really believe that we can now pop him in back in to bottle ?
Who gets to play God and decides who lives and who gets culled ?
So assuming we get the go ahead to cull Otters .
Who's next in the queue ?

Brock the Badger maybe , After all the farmers say they spread TB in cattle .
Then there are the shooters who complain about birds of prey taking Young Pheasants .

Was it Bill Oddie a few years ago . Was complaining about pussy cats killing fledging birds ? Perhaps we should add them to the list ?

So assuming we get the go ahead , Will all these other groups jump on the band wagon and say , If Anglers can get permission to Cull Otters they why cant we cull Birds of Prey , Badgers , Etc
Click to expand...
how about bill oddie, annoying little &%&^%:D
 
When will we ever learn?..We cant just keep saying that killing wild animals for our benefit is the way forward..Far better would be a good program about fish that live in our waterways so the public can actually see whats there, and then point out the many problems that they face. Making non- anglers understand the damaging affects that many rivers face would be far better option.
When a passion for angling was first shown many who watched were not anglers but they loved the way it was filmed and the various wildlife that was shown and indeed it had good viewing figures.

If history shows us anything, if you meddle with nature then something else will happen which is not always obvious at first.

I bet if we get our way with cormarants for example, then that problem would go away and another would appear.
 
I agree that for anglers to clamour for the culling of otters would be wrong, and in fact as often said, may well be counter productive, because It would probably harm our public image. (If indeed that is possible :p) I also agree with Joe that it is probably not possible to 'pop them back in the bottle' as he puts it....what is done is probably irrevocably done. A minority group of misguided people have meddled with nature (Some folk are really good at doing that), with no proper research into possible consequences of their actions, and once again we can probably not undo what is done.

Mind you, I do think that it would be nice to investigate the claims that the captively reared otters that were released (and reputedly are still being released)...are causing mayhem by behaving in a completely unnatural manner. Again, it is probably too late to do anything about it, even if that turned out to be the case. However, I can't help having this very satisfying vision of the problem otters being identified and recaptured, and those whom released them being forced to look after them, at their own expense, for the rest of their (un)natural lives :D It ain't going to happen...but it is a nice dream :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
Last edited:
Joe Fletcher said:
Who was it that said '' The genie is out the bottle '' Or should I say the Tarka the Otter is out of the bottle .

Do people really believe that we can now pop him in back in to bottle ?
Who gets to play God and decides who lives and who gets culled ?
So assuming we get the go ahead to cull Otters .
Who's next in the queue ?

Brock the Badger maybe , After all the farmers say they spread TB in cattle .
Then there are the shooters who complain about birds of prey taking Young Pheasants .

Was it Bill Oddie a few years ago . Was complaining about pussy cats killing fledging birds ? Perhaps we should add them to the list ?

So assuming we get the go ahead , Will all these other groups jump on the band wagon and say , If Anglers can get permission to Cull Otters they why cant we cull Birds of Prey , Badgers , Etc
Click to expand...

Right I am afraid Joe, but domestic cats are a real problem and BO did have a point I reckon that they do in fact kill for fun too much wildlife, these cats are pampered killers that very often get kicked out at night to do what a apex predator will do. And of course they have no rights in the scheme of things as they don't belong.
Yes and the Badger's are taking a lot of grief what the speed merchants don't kill on the roads the Ministry of Death will claim.
Of course there will not be a cull of Otter, well not unless things get really out of hand and with all this crop genetics tinkering they get as big as bears:eek:and start dragging off our kids.
So yes you are right mate, but the cats have to go I am afraid, or at least we get thier teeth and claws pulled.
And it's bl00dy raining again:mad:
 
The big problem here isn't so much about angling as it is about fish having no place in the general public's affection. Even most ardent conservationists have no understanding of fish. Fish live out of sight under the water and therefore there is no public awareness of them.

Can I add carp to the must cull list, please?
 
Neil Smart said:
Right I am afraid Joe, but domestic cats are a real problem and BO did have a point I reckon that they do in fact kill for fun too much wildlife, these cats are pampered killers that very often get kicked out at night to do what a apex predator will do. And of course they have no rights in the scheme of things as they don't belong.
Yes and the Badger's are taking a lot of grief what the speed merchants don't kill on the roads the Ministry of Death will claim.
Of course there will not be a cull of Otter, well not unless things get really out of hand and with all this crop genetics tinkering they get as big as bears:eek:and start dragging off our kids.
So yes you are right mate, but the cats have to go I am afraid, or at least we get thier teeth and claws pulled.
And it's bl00dy raining again:mad:
Click to expand...

I appreciate that my response is not related to otters, but I'm afraid that Neil is bang on. Cats are incredibly efficient killing machines and they have no role in domestic gardens in terms of their killing sprees. Research has shown that this is the case with millions of birds, frogs etc killed each year. Couch cats fine, but those animals turfed out decimating wildlife is unacceptable. Dogs fouling the street has been pretty well knocked on the head, as has smoking in public places and it's now the time for the cat population to be put under the spotlight and controlled. I just don't understand how cat owners can be thrilled when their beloved cat drops a thrush, probably half alive, on their doorstep - personally it would sicken me. Cats do have a role, on farms, controlling mice and rats, but not in gardens.
 
Apparently.

Dear David,

The UK angling financial information came originally from the UK Sports Council who commissioned the research and other sources that commissioned other studies such as recreational sea angling, game fishing, angling in Scotland etc.

The forerunner to the present AT (Angling Trust) the NAA (National Anglers Alliance) latched onto this information and made a big deal about it. The only problem being the big deal was only preached at the angling minority who were in the "inner circle" of the NAA at the time. The majority of angling did not, and still do not, have a clue about how much UK angling is worth. And that is perfectly highlighted by you asking the question where did the information come from? Because if the angling politicos had done their job properly in the first place anglers would be better informed. Yes we have the well informed elite who meet in their ivory towers

As for sleeping dogs? Everyone steps over these to the point one hardly notices they are there and I guess thats your point? But UK Angling is not a sleeping dog moreover a sleeping giant seeing as angling is the UK's top participant sport with 9% of our population being involved in recreational angling. The general public regard angling as a harmless pursuit perhaps even bordering on the eccentric.

Having said that, why is it that millions tune in for fishing programmes on the telly? Passion for Angling is still selling copies of the series 17 years after it was first shown. The truth is, the general public like programmes about angling just as much as they like programmes about wildlife. We should be harnessing that, working with it to promote our sport so that the general public understand us and perhaps our numbers would swell because of this understanding? Sleeping dogs or ostriches in sand its the same thing and will get us no where in the long run. Angling has missed countless golden opportunities to promote itself with effective PR.

As for the future? Angling will remain the same within its bastions that is the clubs and associations. Those up in the ivory towers will bumble from one issue to another in its reactionary format and the overall majority of grass roots anglers won't have a clue what it is they are doing.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Apparently

Hi Jim,

Apparently, we are never more than a few meters away from mice and brown rats where ever we live, and that includes gardens. Also apparently, if we were to restrict domesticated cats to farm yards only (most farmyard cats are actually bordering on being feral in nature) our gardens would be over run with mice to the point we would have thousands of them running about in broad daylight. Yes admittedly tawny and barn owls keep mice numbers down in gardens but its our nations cats that form the vanguard of effective rodent control around our homes.

Do I own a cat? Unfortunately the ex wife who owned the cat wanted half the house when she left but did not want half the cat so I got landed with it.

Its a damned good mouser though.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Hi Jim,

Apparently, we are never more than a few meters away from mice and brown rats where ever we live, and that includes gardens. Also apparently, if we were to restrict domesticated cats to farm yards only (most farmyard cats are actually bordering on being feral in nature) our gardens would be over run with mice to the point we would have thousands of them running about in broad daylight. Yes admittedly tawny and barn owls keep mice numbers down in gardens but its our nations cats that form the vanguard of effective rodent control around our homes.

Do I own a cat? Unfortunately the ex wife who owned the cat wanted half the house when she left but did not want half the cat so I got landed with it.

Its a damned good mouser though.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...

You mention only rats and mice?
 
Jim Foxall said:
I appreciate that my response is not related to otters, but I'm afraid that Neil is bang on. Cats are incredibly efficient killing machines and they have no role in domestic gardens in terms of their killing sprees. Research has shown that this is the case with millions of birds, frogs etc killed each year. Couch cats fine, but those animals turfed out decimating wildlife is unacceptable. Dogs fouling the street has been pretty well knocked on the head, as has smoking in public places and it's now the time for the cat population to be put under the spotlight and controlled. I just don't understand how cat owners can be thrilled when their beloved cat drops a thrush, probably half alive, on their doorstep - personally it would sicken me. Cats do have a role, on farms, controlling mice and rats, but not in gardens.
Click to expand...

Agreed Jim. I am very fond of cats, to the point of feeding a neighbours cats (she has three and feeds them irregularly) in the winter, and letting them stay overnight if the weather is really bad. However, that is purely because I am as daft about animals as the average Brit :D Sadly, there are just too many cats around now. I would say that if I did a count of the cats living in (a relative term where cats are concerned :p) the nearest twenty homes in my road, it would probably average out at one per house. Most of those will have been bought as tiny adorable balls of blue eyed fluff...only to be semi abandoned later when they turn into the independent, stand-offish night prowler that is your average adult cat. Most of them still get fed and watered, but treat their owners homes as a convenient food supply depot, and somewhere to sleep half of the daytime hours away.

Sadly, despite being fed, they still do what comes naturally to them...they hunt, and kill huge amounts of our wildlife...not to survive...but just because that is what they do. I have bird feeders in my garden, but will not put nest boxes up because any offspring would not last out the first hour when they left the box as fledglings. once again, we have brought about a totally unnatural imbalance in nature, a situation where predators almost outnumber their prey. Utter unthinking madness....and it DOES need addressing in some way.

Cheers, Dave.
 
appreciate that my response is not related to otters, but I'm afraid that Neil is bang on. Cats are incredibly efficient killing machines and they have no role in domestic gardens in terms of their killing sprees. Research has shown that this is the case with millions of birds, frogs etc killed each year. Couch cats fine, but those animals turfed out decimating wildlife is unacceptable. Dogs fouling the street has been pretty well knocked on the head, as has smoking in public places and it's now the time for the cat population to be put under the spotlight and controlled. I just don't understand how cat owners can be thrilled when their beloved cat drops a thrush, probably half alive, on their doorstep - personally it would sicken me. Cats do have a role, on farms, controlling mice and rats, but not in gardens.


what a load of tosh,no cats in my garden,never seen any either,but during
the nesting season, regular sights are grey long tailed tree rats running off
with young birds in thier mouths,also often see loads of magpies,after young
birds and eggs,and see loads of empty eggshells on my lawn after the magpies have had them.
Heaps of feathers by my birdtable show the signs of the local sparrowhawks
visits so maybe we should cull those, and perhaps the RSPB should stop blaming cats,and blame themselves for increasing the amount of Raptors
now in the uk.

I love Red kites,and 10 years ago had never seen one in bedfordshire,but now
a very common sight,see them most days,but drive to Oxfordshire to a village called watlington and youll perhaps see 40 or 50 each time you visit the place,
more overkill by meddling humans and the RSPB.
But rather than blaming thier own cock ups ....they blame cats.

Afraid if its a toss up between Otters and Cats to cull,thats when the Otter would lose with 7 million uk cat lovers:D:D
 
David Hall said:
red kites are not really raptors but much more a carrion bird.
Click to expand...

Sorry to dissagree David,but think youll find that they were shot in the
Bad old days for killing chickens.

Food and hunting
The Red Kit is very flexible when it comes to food. It eats almost everything from large insects to carrion. The Red Kite is not a very strong raptor but still a skillful hunter. It catches mostly small mammals like hamster or voles. It is too weak to kill large prey like European Hares. Young hares found in nests are often road kills or killed by harvesting machines [Aebischer 2009]. In Spain, Rabbits are regularly taken but adult Rabbits are too heavy for the Red Kite to carry them away [Aebischer 2009].
Birds are also regularly killed, up to the size of crows but mostly smaller birds are taken. Red Kites also regularly take the nestlings of songbirds and other birds during the breeding season.
 
When the cat woman lived up the road I hardly ever saw a bird in my garden, since she and her band of murdering moggies moved out this spring birdsong has returned to my life.
And I can turn over a trowel full of soil without having to disinfect all the tools afterwards.
 
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