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Otters, Threat or Not??

I have fished the area where the tagged fish 'reside', for over twenty five years plus. Over the last three/four seasons catching ANY barbel has become a chore, from a previous position of going out in favorable conditions knowing you WOULD catch a fish or three, with plenty of 'nuisance' chub chucked in for good measure. The 'nuisance' chub are now the bonus fish, where once one could go out 'chubbing' and catch a dozen fish from a chosen swim, no problem.
The large shoals of roach and dace from this area have also virtually disappeared, so my real enjoyment of trotting is a waste of time.
The fish tagged could still be there, they are almost certainly the only barbel swimming in that area these days. When the stretch was electro-fished a couple of seasons ago, only two fish (barbel) of under eight pounds were caught, plus of course the fish they tagged, a handful of big chub and hardly any silvers. From a stretch of three plus miles of river electro-fished, only about 50 barbel were netted, where once that number would've been closer to 500.
Thus the otters will be generally looking elsewhere most of the time for this little bit of their 'larder' is hardly worth hunting. ie They'll be blanking as often as the fishers who fish there do.
 
Tim Lennon said:
Hi Ian,
thanks for posting the extra information, but to me it is still virtually meaningless.
It might mean that otters don't eat barbel in the one stretch of river where the fish were tagged. It certainly doesn't prove that otters don't kill/eat barbel...
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Hi Tim,
I don't think the article was trying to prove that Otters don't eat Barbel, that would fly in the face of well established evidence that they most certainly do.
I do think they were trying to play down the damage that is percieved ( quite rightly IMO ) by anglers which Otters have wreaked on some rivers and stillwaters, which again IMO is pretty pointless, as the evidence is there for all to see, if you want to look, and find it.

Ian.
 
Nathan Walter said:
I must admit to thinking that the otter problem will eventually level out. Natural deaths and food stocks will force a sustainable balance. Sadly that may well mean losing some prized fish in some stretches but there ain't a lot we can do about it.

I do feel the biggest issue as far a predation goes, is the cormorant problem. The work carried out by the Angling Trust and us anglers have highlighted the severity of the problem. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, however hopefully their results will lead to better control methods of these birds. Then we need some research into eradicating the American signal crayfish. Perhaps then we will see an improvement in the fish population in our rivers and lakes. If that could ever be achieved, I'm sure the otter issue would not be not be so severe in some areas, as it currently is.
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Hi Nathan,
I'd agree with you that in the fullness of time, regardless of the destruction along the way that the inflated populations of Otters in some areas where they have been released in excessive numbers, would start to level out to a sustainable balance, but that level will be a long time coming whilst orphaned Otters are 'rehabilitated', Otters that nature would see die in the natural process of population stabalisation.
Once again interference from idiots who have no conception of the knock on effects of their actions will prevent nature doing what nature does best.
I've said in many past discussions about this, that we live in a world ( and our little corner of it ) where the ecology whether we like it or not is managed by us - Humans - some of us seem to make great strides in rectifying the damage of past years, whilst others no doubt in the belief they are doing great good, seem by their actions to wreck the good work of others, this is because they have one agenda, without looking at the much much bigger picture.
As i said in those previous threads, nature no matter what we do ( good or bad ) will try to achieve a balance with whatever it has to work with at the time, which is what would have eventually happened even with the massively excessive introductions of captive bred Otters into areas where it was known they would fair best given the prey food on offer, mostly in areas where great efforts had been made previously in river habitat restoration, and because of the proximity of privately owned stillwater fisheries.
But once again in as far as the Otter issue goes the goal posts change, and nature will again find itself challenged in it's attempts to restore a natural balance, because it's attempts to achieve that balance are once again being thwarted by do gooders interfereing in the natural order, hand rearing, and re-introducing Otters which otherwise nature would not have allowed to survive.
These poor creatures will be introduced into an enviroment they are not equipped to deal with having had no natural training from their mothers, and will almost certainly be attacked by other Otters into whose territories they have been released, thats without any other attacks from foxes etc, where again apart from natural instinct, they have not had the benefit of their mothers training in avoiding predators.
How cruel is that ? and reminds me of the original introductions by Phillip Ware, who is on record as saying in reply to somebody pointing out that the Otters would sustain very high mortality rates, he said ... That as regretable as the mortality rate would be, they would just reintroduce more to compensate, that is not a 'quote' by the way.

What infuriates me is the willingness of the EA to conveniently look the other way, and as we see here from this article even try to play down, in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary of the damage otters have done to mature fish stocks at least in some areas, damage which they were a party to inflicting, by their involvement, albeit indirectly with those who carried out the introductions.

This article to my mind is nothing more than a PR exercise, and damage limitation, like Ray Walton, i'd be very interested to see more evidence of how they retrieved all their tracking devices, being the cynic i am, i smell a rat here, something just doesn't seem right.

But i have to agree with you Nathan, the way things stand at the moment, there's nothing we can do about it.

Ian.
 
I wonder if the EA would have been so keen to publish if their research had revealed half of the 20 tagged barbel had been eaten by otters? As Ian says, a PR exercise
 
Spot on Alex. Information like that is only released if it corroborates their previous stance on the otter issue.

It just goes to show how healthy the fish stocks had become. Some might say that the stocks had become unnaturally large but who can say for certain. Nevertheless only around 120 otters were actually released up to the late 90s. They thrived on the abundance of food that was available. However at the time water abstraction was far less, as in the last 15-20 years demand for water has increased dramatically. And of course both signal crayfish and inland cormorants were not a problem either.

It's just such a shame that otters numbers have peaked at a time when our waterways already face so many challenges.
 
Don't forget the 95%-98% drop in the eel population, the otters preferred food source! The EA knew of this Eel decline well before the re-introduction!
If the 'scientific' research is spot on and the tagged barbel are still there, there is no doubt that the EA will use the info to indicate 'No Problem', despite any carcus evidence which has already been provided.
We could easily do the same research on another stretch and get the alternative results that we know has happened and is still happening. Carry on the research for another couple of years and see what happens!
In my opinion, the otters may not have found the tagged barbel yet, or they might prefer another abundant species of smaller fish. wildfowl, water voles, amphibians etc, which i have seen more so in the warmer months. In my experience they tend to go for the big fish in colder Winter spells, although if everything else has been munched, then they will have to take what's left.... to survive.
 
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Not entirely true that sweeping statement, i think...although it may make it a bit harder for predators.;) I think you need to explain a bit more why you think this!
 
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This isnt EA data. This is M and S data, only joking- this is data collected by a lady (Karen Twine) who is doing her phd.

I dont think she is part of some EA otter consiparacy and I really dont think Ms Twine would have falsified any data for her phd.

From the little tit bits of info I have received she worked bloody hard to track those barbel, walking miles upon miles of river bank every day for months on end.

If the fish had gone she would of reported it as such.
 
Steve Williams said:
Nail on head Ash... improve the habitat/spawning, and a balance should occur.

Steve
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Ray Walton said:
Don't forget the 95%-98% drop in the eel population, the otters preferred food source! The EA knew of this Eel decline well before the re-introduction!
If the 'scientific' research is spot on and the tagged barbel are still there, there is no doubt that the EA will use the info to indicate 'No Problem', despite any carcus evidence which has already been provided.
We could easily do the same research on another stretch and get the alternative results that we know has happened and is still happening. Carry on the research for another couple of years and see what happens!
In my opinion, the otters may not have found the tagged barbel yet, or they might prefer another abundant species of smaller fish. wildfowl, water voles, amphibians etc, which i have seen more so in the warmer months. In my experience they tend to go for the big fish in colder Winter spells, although if everything else has been munched, then they will have to take what's left.... to survive.
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You have a good point there mate they should just keep track of the barbel for years to come i think.
 
Hi men,

It won't be long before some clubs revenue will drop as river anglers search elsewhere for the fishing , as I do .

The people in the link are not scaremongers , they are hard working , and concerned anglers and officials of clubs .

Hatter
 
The EA and NE and the Otter Trusts should have done this type of research as part of an 'Impact Assesment' BEFORE authorising the releases. Any research now, is over 15years too late for the river environment, fish and wildlife!
In my opinion, they knew what would happen to the fish stocks (with no eels about) if the otter population multiplied 10 fold (which it probably has) and the imminent decline of fisheries due to fish population loss, throughout the UK. In some ways, there is a possibility that some of the instigators could have been anti-angling also!
Otters eating re-introduced protected Water Voles, Herons, protected wildfowl, migratory wildfowl, ducks, moorhens, coots, swans, together with raiding their nests of eggs and young was probably not even considered by the EA/NE etc in their over excitement. It is called total negligence! Protected Amphibians, frogs, newts, lizards, snakes, slow worms plus mammals are all on the otters menu list as well. The only thing they probably considered was that otters would benefit the riverine environment by killing of the remaining Mink and also Rats!
 
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The upper river around Newport/MK is not a big river and the stretches loved by the barbel is generally shallower and not all that wide. Having experienced these dry seasons lately, bigger fish will be huddled up in slightly deeper water and will obviously be easy picking for the otters.
And the five otters spotted in one area by the angler mentioned will be a family of two adults and three cubs. (though two is the norm) The cubs will be almost at the point of being sent packing by the dog otter now, as their hunting prowess will be finely tuned. Five otters = at least five fish killed every day.
 
1lb of fish for each otter per day is only a said survival rate. A hungry otter will take much more than 1lb of fish for snacks or a main meal, (just like humans do). The smaller the fish, the more they will take until they are satisfied. The amount of fish taken per day by the pack would possibly be 10 fold to what it is said to survive. Total that up in a year, and we havn't even started on the larger fish on the menu, when the juveniles have all been eaten.
 
Ray Walton said:
1lb of fish for each otter per day is only a said survival rate. A hungry otter will take much more than 1lb of fish for snacks or a main meal, (just like humans do). The smaller the fish, the more they will take until they are satisfied. The amount of fish taken per day by the pack would possibly be 10 fold to what it is said to survive. Total that up in a year, and we havn't even started on the larger fish on the menu, when the juveniles have all been eaten.
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I agree with you mate the impact over a 22 month period is devistaing esp if the river is small and low.
 
Ray Walton said:
1lb of fish for each otter per day is only a said survival rate. A hungry otter will take much more than 1lb of fish for snacks or a main meal, (just like humans do). The smaller the fish, the more they will take until they are satisfied. The amount of fish taken per day by the pack would possibly be 10 fold to what it is said to survive. Total that up in a year, and we havn't even started on the larger fish on the menu, when the juveniles have all been eaten.
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Ray you say a hungry otter will take much more than a 1lb of fish a day for snacks or main meals The smaller the fish the more they will take .
So I wonder how many of the smaller fish and I assume you are talking about small Barbel ? are being taken by Zander .
So if Zander are taking smaller Barbel . Why do some people get so up set when culling them is suggested ?
After all you can cull Zander and not Otters so it might go some way to helping the Barbel population
 
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