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Otters, Threat or Not??

I think otters are a threat but its nature weather we like it or not id rather they not be around but what can we do barbel should be tagged in most rivers not just for otters but to see how far they move to spawn etc but also what about mink they are little destructive pests who kill for fun :mad:
 
Andy Millichamp said:
Now that makes sense to me. I believe it was shown that otters prefer to feed on smaller fish, so we need to make sure there are plenty of them to stop them eating all those lovely big barbel.

So we need to tackle the comorant/goosander problem, but also look to improve the fish's habitat/spawning as Steve just said, a proper joined-up solution. Then perhaps we can enjoy the otters living alongside the fish in a balanced river.
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Andy you say we need to tackle the Cormorant/Goosander problem ?
Perhaps its time to add Zander to the list because if the Zander are taking all the small fish including smaller Barbel .
Then all that is left are the bigger Barbel for the Otter to munch there way through .
 
Hate to say it, but it is getting to the point to where 'Anglers' are being seen to want to kill everything that moves, eats fish or affects their fishing!:(
 
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I think in many areas the otter problem is peaking now. A recent analysis of dead male otters showed all had fighting scars suggesting that territories are being fought over. The Water Framework Directive means more focus is being paid to fish stocks so hopefully in time habitat will be improved, recruitment will increase and otters will have a greater range of fish sizes to prey on.

The big question for me is until habitats are improved to improve recruitment is whether the EA will address the elephant in the room - predatory birds! Whilst bigger rivers can cope with otters, smaller rivers, where they cause most damage, are also the areas where predatory birds have the most impact.
 
Hi Ian,
I haven't read this week's Anglers Mail, but from the information provided in your post it would seem to me that the number of barbel tagged is so small that it couldn't possibly provide any meaningful statistics on barbel mortality rates to otter predation on the river Gt. Ouse...

Over how many miles of river were the barbel tagged?

Were barbel tagged within known otter territories?

The statement in your initial post is completely meaningless without the backup information being supplied.
 
Ian Grant said:
An opinion on Otters - are you serious !!! go back over the old threads mr Crook, i'm not banging my head on that wall again, in fact i don't know what posessed me to post this time, a moment of madness - very out of character ! :p
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Damn....what did you go and do that for Mr. Grant? Like you, I have had enough of 'Groundhog Day', and wasn't going to bother....but now I feel the need to pitch in. Again, completely out of character :D

So....my opinion on this Crooky, for what it's worth.

Once again, there have been several posts along the lines of "If we sort the REAL problem out, get the rivers cleaned up and healthy again, then things will sort themselves out naturally'. All very true of course, absolutely spot on....I think we all dream of such an ideal solution coming about.

Sadly though, I think we all know deep down that such a solution to our problems is not about to happen any time soon, because we don't live in an 'ideal' world....we live in a world where reality is tied in to the needs of shareholders and the mighty dollar. Worse still, our little bit of it is effectively ruled by the same people who assured us that the European Union and the Euro itself was the route to salvation :rolleyes: Our rather ordinary dreams pale into insignificance when ranged against that lot.....

And again, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that we anglers can do much about it ourselves. Had our human population remained as it was when it was around the fifty/fifty five million mark that it seemed to have levelled out at for a good few years, we would slowly have got on top of the problem in my opinion....but it didn't. Our little Island suddenly has a population the size of which the politicians themselves now admit is unknown....but possibly in the region of five to ten million more than that. No point in causing more controversy by going into why this sudden huge population increase has occurred....the point is, it has....and the increased demand for water, building land, housing and the multitude of other things that go hand in hand with such an event (I don't want to even think about the increase in pollution levels involved!) have put paid to any hopes of solving things in the near future.

So....for now, and probably some time to come in my opinion, we are stuck with what we have....which means that in many of our rivers, we have an ailing population of fish and other wildlife which are fighting a losing battle against declining water quality. (There are exceptions of course, rivers where the quality of water is quite reasonable....but they ARE the exceptions) If we now compound that dire situation by introducing a number of completely new pests, such as spawn eating signal crayfish, mitten crabs etc, or bring about a massive increase in predatory fish eating birds....then the situation will inevitably soon reach crisis point. Low spawn survival obviously means low fry levels. Low fry levels, with those that DO survive the increase in pollution being taken out by cormorants etc., means near zero recruitment of young fish. Net result? Imbalanced, unnatural stocks of large, slow old fish lording it about in many rivers. River record books look good for a while (even national records at times :D)....but it is a disaster waiting to happen.

Then of course, for reasons apparently unknown, the European population of eels has crashed to an all time low, with total extinction a very real possibility. Add that crucial factor to what is already an almost impossible situation in some waters....we are then in DEEP trouble.

Guess what happens in the more badly affected rivers, if you THEN have an influx of large predators, such as otters....which are more than capable of catching and killing any fish that swims in our battered old rivers?

Are they a threat? No, not on big, healthy rivers, or even medium and small rivers that are in pristine condition, rivers where nature can still affect the outcome. On the many sick rivers, those beyond nature to repair without help? You had better believe it mate.....the final nail and all that :(

There is of course nothing we can do about that either....like it or not, natural or not, it is a fact....a done deal. Time will tell whether we can get our act together enough as humans to help nature out with the pollution bit before it is past help. Wan't to place any bets? Certainly not in my lifetime, I'll give you decent odds on that!

As I say, all only my opinions....make of them what you will mate :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
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I know i have seen some info on this out there a while ago, but it would be interesting for others to know the fuller story and also at what size/weight/age of barbel tagged in this research programme. This to understand better and continue the BFW discussion, and to where other alternative suggestions and conclusions could possibly be made!
 
If rivers were a lot dirtier and not so clear / clean all the time we wouldn't have a problem. We would still have lots of fry and lots of roach, dace, bleak etc etc.
 
Its Boring - utter tripe threads like this one..that is getting this site a bad rep.
Sorry but its the truth :(

grow up get a life.

paul:eek:
 
OK, as it's not on their website:

Barbel miraculously survive TIM KNIGHT reports

Startling feedback has emerged from a tagging project set up as part of investigations into declining barbel numbers in the middle reaches of the Great Ouse.

The Ouse holds the current 21lb 1oz British barbel record but various stretches have suffered deaths of large fish to the jaws of otters.

While several sections of the upper river have been seeded with small barbel, the effects of the mammals on mature fish are not yet fully understood.

Roger Handford, one of the EAs fishery specialists, reported how 20 barbel from 6 to 16lb were tagged with tracking devices, before their movements were monitored over two years.

Results fly in the face of suggestions that otters are to blame for the decline of the river species.

Roger said: "We tagged 20 large barbel in a stretch otters are known to frequent and 2 years later we still 20 large barbel".

Further investigations revealed fry recruitment was poor, while gravel beds used for spawning had become clogged with silt and weed. Bob said the project was an excellent example of research funded by angler's rod licence fees.

A TV documentary is also planned to cover the destruction otters cause.

It's aimed to get the attention of Government and persuading them to take action, so will not only look at the local ecosystem, which supported specimen-sized fish that once pulled anglers from far and wide, but also the people and businesses being seriously affected.

The pilot has a working title of Ottered and will feature John Wilson MBE, with emphasis on the struggling River Wensum in Norfolk. The documentary will also feature those disgusted at the thought of a cull or any kind of control program.

Now beavers threaten venues - see p.6.
 
In my opinion, I think we would have to see the full EA research document simply because the EA are Pro-Otters and were involved in the re-introduction nationwide. So really, they are biased and not going to admit any liability to the carnage that has been caused to any river and lake fisheries, back track or say sorry!
Perhaps the otters are a bit clever and don't like eating tags with their meal, as the game would be up.... or the otters could be swimming around with the live/active tags in them or the tags could be laying on the riverbed along with the remains! :rolleyes:
Were the 20 barbel actually re-netted by electrofishing or the tags detected by a 'transmitter' which is one way the EA do this!
 
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Ray Walton said:
In my opinion, I think we would have to see the full EA research document simply because the EA are Pro-Otters and were involved in the re-introduction nationwide. So really, they are biased and not going to admit any liability to the carnage that has been caused to any river and lake fisheries, back track or say sorry!
Perhaps the otters are a bit clever and don't like eating tags with their meal, as the game would be up.... or the otters could be swimming around with the live/active tags in them or the tags could be laying on the riverbed along with the remains! :rolleyes:
Were the 20 barbel actually re-netted by electrofishing or the tags detected by a 'transmitter' which is one way the EA do this!
Click to expand...

Exactly Ray, ..... and something does smell very fishy about this tagging.
 
Hi Ian,
thanks for posting the extra information, but to me it is still virtually meaningless.
It might mean that otters don't eat barbel in the one stretch of river where the fish were tagged. It certainly doesn't prove that otters don't kill/eat barbel...
 
I must admit to thinking that the otter problem will eventually level out. Natural deaths and food stocks will force a sustainable balance. Sadly that may well mean losing some prized fish in some stretches but there ain't a lot we can do about it.

I do feel the biggest issue as far a predation goes, is the cormorant problem. The work carried out by the Angling Trust and us anglers have highlighted the severity of the problem. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, however hopefully their results will lead to better control methods of these birds. Then we need some research into eradicating the American signal crayfish. Perhaps then we will see an improvement in the fish population in our rivers and lakes. If that could ever be achieved, I'm sure the otter issue would not be not be so severe in some areas, as it currently is.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Damn....what did you go and do that for Mr. Grant? Like you, I have had enough of 'Groundhog Day', and wasn't going to bother....but now I feel the need to pitch in. Again, completely out of character :D

So....my opinion on this Crooky, for what it's worth.

Once again, there have been several posts along the lines of "If we sort the REAL problem out, get the rivers cleaned up and healthy again, then things will sort themselves out naturally'. All very true of course, absolutely spot on....I think we all dream of such an ideal solution coming about.

Sadly though, I think we all know deep down that such a solution to our problems is not about to happen any time soon, because we don't live in an 'ideal' world....we live in a world where reality is tied in to the needs of shareholders and the mighty dollar. Worse still, our little bit of it is effectively ruled by the same people who assured us that the European Union and the Euro itself was the route to salvation :rolleyes: Our rather ordinary dreams pale into insignificance when ranged against that lot.....

And again, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that we anglers can do much about it ourselves. Had our human population remained as it was when it was around the fifty/fifty five million mark that it seemed to have levelled out at for a good few years, we would slowly have got on top of the problem in my opinion....but it didn't. Our little Island suddenly has a population the size of which the politicians themselves now admit is unknown....but possibly in the region of five to ten million more than that. No point in causing more controversy by going into why this sudden huge population increase has occurred....the point is, it has....and the increased demand for water, building land, housing and the multitude of other things that go hand in hand with such an event (I don't want to even think about the increase in pollution levels involved!) have put paid to any hopes of solving things in the near future.

So....for now, and probably some time to come in my opinion, we are stuck with what we have....which means that in many of our rivers, we have an ailing population of fish and other wildlife which are fighting a losing battle against declining water quality. (There are exceptions of course, rivers where the quality of water is quite reasonable....but they ARE the exceptions) If we now compound that dire situation by introducing a number of completely new pests, such as spawn eating signal crayfish, mitten crabs etc, or bring about a massive increase in predatory fish eating birds....then the situation will inevitably soon reach crisis point. Low spawn survival obviously means low fry levels. Low fry levels, with those that DO survive the increase in pollution being taken out by cormorants etc., means near zero recruitment of young fish. Net result? Imbalanced, unnatural stocks of large, slow old fish lording it about in many rivers. River record books look good for a while (even national records at times :D)....but it is a disaster waiting to happen.

Then of course, for reasons apparently unknown, the European population of eels has crashed to an all time low, with total extinction a very real possibility. Add that crucial factor to what is already an almost impossible situation in some waters....we are then in DEEP trouble.

Guess what happens in the more badly affected rivers, if you THEN have an influx of large predators, such as otters....which are more than capable of catching and killing any fish that swims in our battered old rivers?

Are they a threat? No, not on big, healthy rivers, or even medium and small rivers that are in pristine condition, rivers where nature can still affect the outcome. On the many sick rivers, those beyond nature to repair without help? You had better believe it mate.....the final nail and all that :(

There is of course nothing we can do about that either....like it or not, natural or not, it is a fact....a done deal. Time will tell whether we can get our act together enough as humans to help nature out with the pollution bit before it is past help. Wan't to place any bets? Certainly not in my lifetime, I'll give you decent odds on that!

As I say, all only my opinions....make of them what you will mate :p

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

An excellent post, Dave. I don't think that anyone can deny that fish stocks are under threat from many directions. Without a shadow of a doubt, cormorants wreak untold carnage, although there will be some goups who will be in denial. Otters must have an impact on fish stocks, how much so is a matter of debate. What seems obvious to me is that it is the small rivers that must be at the greatest risk. In my experience they just haven't the numbers of fish to sustain predation.
 
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